Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

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Muzzin was a mistake, it didnt get the Leafs a first round playoff win, it didnt help us.
Trading draft picks for rentals didnt work, no first round playoff win.
Tavares 11 vs 4.5 Kadri was the biggest mistake of all, forced all our depth players out.
Marchment trade was a mistake.
Trading guys/letting guys walk with excellent compete levels, Connor Brown, Hyman

I cant think of 1 good thing Dubas has done. He put us in cap hell, no playoff wins. What has he done except destroy this core and prospects that seemed destined to win 5 yrs ago.
 
I'm not against that. Like I said earlier, I think a Rielly or Nylander trade would "send a message" in a meaningful way. But to whom? Who are you trying to reform?

I think the guy at the center of this crap storm is Marner. The Babcock controversy, the endless coddling and fragility under pressure, the pushback on Keefe calling out the core, the circus brand hockey. That's the purge. That's the nuclear, era changing move.
Problem is that Matthews will then walk away after his contract is done. If there was any way we win in the playoffs and go deep after doing the MM trade...then you might have a chance at re-signing him...if you don't win, you pretty much guaranteed yourself a NYI situation with JT and he walks for nothing.

Of all the dumb things that are attributed to Dubas...giving that NMC in the final year of AM's contract was by far the worst thing. He could change his mind July 1st 2023 and say he wants to explore the market and see how our management does in the mini rebuild before committing and we can't do shit about it.
 
I fundamentally do not believe that he is shallow or rigid in his management.

Look at our 4th line over the years. It's been small and speedy, it's been grizzled and experienced, it's been punchy, it's been grindy, it's been everything under the sun. Our blueline has evolved from a puck moving express to a well balanced unit, to a unit that can't even transition the puck out of their own end. This team has changed SO much over the years, the only thing that has stayed consistent is the core.

With so many red lines and rigid vision, the 4th line tinkering is one of the few places where he can actually do GM work. And it's aimless and doesn't learn from past success or failure or the other teams he's playing. The fact that they've already been cycling through the Aube-Kubel and Aston Reese experiment and defaulting to Simmonds and Clifford kind of tells you there's no plan, no confidence. If he was confident in his build, wouldn't we be attributing early season sluggishness to just acclimatization?

We don't play Pep Guardiola soccer whatseover. I've watched just about every Man City game they've played this year and the Leafs aren't even in the same realm. The Leafs have become a group of personalities who try and style the puck into the net, they are nothing like the possession monster Guardiola teams. A Guardiola team is a team of All-Stars who all buy into a program that is bigger than themselves and play an incredibly impressive team game where they work their butts off all 90 minutes. Our Leafs use possession to give the puck to Marner and have him try something magic.

Well, it's a different sport and the translation/application is poor. You'll notice the Leafs tend to avoid sending the puck north, deploying non traditional bump backs, curls, lateral passes and avoid creating future one on one puck retrievals. They like being on top of the opposition at a high rate but take out the physicality from the equation. They activate much lower skillset players to execute high skill plays (Justin Holl pinches, Pierre Engvall and Alex Galchenyuk holding the puck in dangerous areas through transition, Kerfoot ice dancing at center ice in Game 7 with a drop pass). They don't behave like a typical hockey team because they're trying to reinvent the possession aspect from another sport.

They have no idea how to manage a game clock, play physical attrition, lengthen the ice to make the opposition with dump ins, chip and chase, honest board work, sealing walls.

What I will say for Dubas is that he is not actually rigid at all. One of the things I like about him is his adaptability and willingness to fix mistakes. He makes mistakes like Ritchie and Foligno, but moves on from them and gets them right the next time around, like Giordano. I wholeheartedly agree that he doesn't understand goalies, I said in the Murray thread that this was the move that would finally get him fired, and it is indeed the big4 that have meant he is painted into a corner and can only tinker at the edge of the project.

Like I mentioned earlier, his pyramid consists of a completely rigid core and an interchangeable bottom. He doesn't respect goaltending so it's a revolving door. Even the Holl, Kerfoot, Engvall portion of the roster seems to have fossilized. His belief in his coach makes doesn't seem to come from anywhere.

The only place where he allows changes are at the mercenary bottom. Things don't work out? It's Barabanov, Lehtonen and Ozhiganov on little mercenary contracts. It's guys like Ennis who shouldn't have been here in the first place. It's the convenient scapegoats like Ritchie. It's going to be Aube-Kubel, Aston-Reese and maybe some little tap dance with Clifford and Simmonds. The cheap window dressing who are barely Leafs to begin with.

To my eyes, our process for the last four years has been that we have our big guns and then we tinker with the bottom six and build up the defense to try and get the recipe right and let our young stars mature. I do not think there was any will anywhere in the fandom or the organization to try and break up the big4 early. That will likely go down in history as a mistake, but it is a mistake that I can live with. I would hate a GM who wasn't willing to bet on Mitch Marner to pull his head out of his ass.

He might be fired, probably will be. When he is fired, I'll comment something along the lines of, "Too bad". If he's fired and the core doesn't change, I'll see you all in the thread about firing the next guy.

I think the bet on the Big 4 is actually fine in the sense that if they do in fact flame out nobody will singing the what could have been tune. That's worth something because we've been exhausting this method.

Where I think Dubas really deserves to be criticized heavily is instead of building a conventional supporting cast of meat and potatoes, size and work ethic to surround and protect his core, he's pursued his little projects who never made sense by design or on the ice.
 
Problem is that Matthews will then walk away after his contract is done. If there was any way we win in the playoffs and go deep after doing the MM trade...then you might have a chance at re-signing him...if you don't win, you pretty much guaranteed yourself a NYI situation with JT and he walks for nothing.

Of all the dumb things that are attributed to Dubas...giving that NMC in the final year of AM's contract was by far the worst thing. He could change his mind July 1st 2023 and say he wants to explore the market and see how our management does in the mini rebuild before committing and we can't do shit about it.

If this season continues on the flameout trend and we are in some kind of ambiguity with a non committal Matthews, I think you circle June 30, 2023 as the drop dead date. It's just asset management.
 
I blame the players. The guy puts a 115 point team on the ice last year and we've spent years telling ourselves that this was finally the year. But year after year it was the players who couldn't get it done. I understand accountability, but I think that you're looking for accountability in exactly the wrong place. I find it massively ironic that the players have failed again and again and this fanbase is STILL looking everywhere else. Endless threads about how it's all the GM's fault that a 115 point team can't win in the playoffs. It's a joke that people would rather blame the GM for putting together a bad 4th line rather than look at the actual important pieces of the team.

I don't make excuses for Dubas, but I do try to be fair. You can find my posts in the Matt Murray thread and they're about firing him. I'm clearly posting in the context of how his project has failed and I have no illusions that he's probably gone. But I fundamentally believe that if you want to start handing out accountability for failure to this Maple Leafs team, it starts in the locker room. This batch of players are never held accountable and firing yet another manager enables them even further.

This team is not garbage, I've watched enough hockey for long enough to understand a good roster when I see one. Putting together a team with talent is tough n the NHL and the Leafs have been one of the most talented teams in the league for half a decade. The team is broken.

If an architect designs a building and the engineer signs off on it, the construction crews build it, the inspectors certify it, the public loves it, the mayor praises it, and then it collapses, you don't go straight to the architect for his head. All I see in these Dubas threads is bloodlust; hoping for the next big move that will give us the next glimmer of hope.

I am telling you that the core needs to be broken up and I don't think it matters who does it.
No question the players carry a large share of the blame but when Dubas is blindly supporting them failure after failure. However when Dubas refused to believe that his reinventing hockey has failed and he repeatedly refuse to deal with this defective core he needs to go. Add in his horrible record on goaltending he should be shown the door the moment he told Shanny he was going after Murray especially after last years fiasco with Mrazek
 
If this season continues on the flameout trend and we are in some kind of ambiguity with a non committal Matthews, I think you circle June 30, 2023 as the drop dead date. It's just asset management.
I can see a new GM offering a drop dead date. Do you think Dubas would do that? I don't. I really think he thinks he will somehow get rewarded for over paying or giving less years to AM on his 2nd deal. He really feels like a friend to them and it's not going to end well.
 
I can see a new GM offering a drop dead date. Do you think Dubas would do that? I don't. I really think he thinks he will somehow get rewarded for over paying or giving less years to AM on his 2nd deal. He really feels like a friend to them and it's not going to end well.

Worst case scenario, I could see a timeline where:

1) Some combination of Dubas-Keefe is gone by American Thanksgiving or not sooner.
2) New interim GM search to gently land the team initiate a sell off at the deadline in anticipation of a bigger retool.
3) Spring time, Matthews intentions are back channeled and understood, leading to him either being part of the retool or he's sold off.
4) Busy offseason with new management solidified in place.
 
He shit the bed this summer

Had a chance to move Muzzin for actual value, choked and didn't do it.

Aquired kerfoots replacement. Somehow didn't move kerfoot

How is Holl still on the f***ing roster.

Murray obviously but at least because we got Murray and he was such a risk we picked up samsonov.

Used up too many contract spaces to have a bottom 6 hunger games

Not even counting Murray because we needed a goalie obviously that's about 11 mil in cap space and a few assets we could have played with his summer
 
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Lost in all the negativity - the 2018 draft was Dubas' first as GM, and we've now seen 3 players he drafted graduate to play in the NHL: Sandin, Durzi, and Kral
 
Your teams biggest problem was the pandemic and the resultant flat cap.

The big 4 contracts implicitly assumed the cap would continue to rise. Because that has stalled, it's been very hard to bring in good secondary pieces with so little cap space. You guys should be in better shape as the cap rises...

But, you need a GM that can get a good goalie.
The problem with the flat cap argument is that it completely ignores the fact that as the cap increases, so do all the other salaries. The salary cap increasing is inflationary in nature with respect to salaries across the league.

So the 5 million dollar UFA player one year becomes a 5.5 million dollar player the next year coinciding with the cap increase.

The Leafs problem is two fold;

—They committed too much money to too few of the same type of forwards

—They overpaid some of those same players and allowed other RFA players to leverage those contracts as comparables and get overly friendly player deals

The Leafs problem is more a salary cap allocation issue than it is a salary cap problem.

That has left them scrambling and trying to use prospects and draft picks as incentive capital to compensate teams for obtaining players on salary cap friendly contracts.

Eventually the cupboard will be bare at this rate.
 
With so many red lines and rigid vision, the 4th line tinkering is one of the few places where he can actually do GM work. And it's aimless and doesn't learn from past success or failure or the other teams he's playing. The fact that they've already been cycling through the Aube-Kubel and Aston Reese experiment and defaulting to Simmonds and Clifford kind of tells you there's no plan, no confidence. If he was confident in his build, wouldn't we be attributing early season sluggishness to just acclimatization?



Well, it's a different sport and the translation/application is poor. You'll notice the Leafs tend to avoid sending the puck north, deploying non traditional bump backs, curls, lateral passes and avoid creating future one on one puck retrievals. They like being on top of the opposition at a high rate but take out the physicality from the equation. They activate much lower skillset players to execute high skill plays (Justin Holl pinches, Pierre Engvall and Alex Galchenyuk holding the puck in dangerous areas through transition, Kerfoot ice dancing at center ice in Game 7 with a drop pass). They don't behave like a typical hockey team because they're trying to reinvent the possession aspect from another sport.

They have no idea how to manage a game clock, play physical attrition, lengthen the ice to make the opposition with dump ins, chip and chase, honest board work, sealing walls.



Like I mentioned earlier, his pyramid consists of a completely rigid core and an interchangeable bottom. He doesn't respect goaltending so it's a revolving door. Even the Holl, Kerfoot, Engvall portion of the roster seems to have fossilized. His belief in his coach makes doesn't seem to come from anywhere.

The only place where he allows changes are at the mercenary bottom. Things don't work out? It's Barabanov, Lehtonen and Ozhiganov on little mercenary contracts. It's guys like Ennis who shouldn't have been here in the first place. It's the convenient scapegoats like Ritchie. It's going to be Aube-Kubel, Aston-Reese and maybe some little tap dance with Clifford and Simmonds. The cheap window dressing who are barely Leafs to begin with.



I think the bet on the Big 4 is actually fine in the sense that if they do in fact flame out nobody will singing the what could have been tune. That's worth something because we've been exhausting this method.

Where I think Dubas really deserves to be criticized heavily is instead of building a conventional supporting cast of meat and potatoes, size and work ethic to surround and protect his core, he's pursued his little projects who never made sense by design or on the ice.
I think prognosticating from the actions of the fourth line nine games into a flat start season is a waste of time. The problem with the team is entirely Matthews and Marner right now, this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that people are looking for accountability in exactly the wrong places. And frankly, the fact that we rolled it back for a sixth time speaks to me as having a plan and confidence in it. The plan is to get to the playoffs and let the stars figure it out. The fourth liners are the notes in the margins, but the fans keep falling for the idea that if we just get the right players on league minimum contracts everything will sort itself out.

I think we agree fundamentally that the big 4 is what has boxed Dubas into this position.

I see all of those things that you're saying about how the Leafs play, but I don't think the conclusion makes sense. None of that is about reinventing a possession game, it's entirely about a team that is made of individual egos. I think blaming it on possession game plans is entirely a red herring. If you write a paragraph about how they don't play a proper possession game, it's not that they're trying to reinvent the possession game, it's that they just don't play one. They are a team that tries to be high skill and play high risk, high reward. They have a lot of possession because they are quite good hockey players, but they simply do not play that style at all.

Agreed that they don't do the physical work that leads to success. It's the skill game that is the trap for them, not possession. Our roster the last two years, both blueline and bottom six are built to play this kind of physical hard work game and it got us 115 points and a great playoff series last year. This year things are just a shitshow up and down the entire team. When the team really struggles, it's generally because the big 4 aren't putting in the work. The team always, always, always follows their lead.

I agree with all of the stuff about the mercenaries, but again not the conclusion that you draw. Needing to try randoms from Europe is one of the logical conclusions of the big 4 bet. Most of the mercenaries don't work out, but when we get guys like Mikheyev it shows that the idea has merit. When we get 60 points from a Bunting on an ELC, I have to tip my hat and recognize that the little projects occasionally bear fruit. This year seems to be one of the weakest groups he's brought in, and he deserves criticism for that, but it all stems from the bet on the big 4. That's the decision point that actually matters. If we like the bet on the big 4, I don't see why we should be getting mad at the GM for playing it out as best he could.

I think your last paragraph does a really good job explaining some of my frustration with much of the debate surrounding Dubas. You say that we need a conventional supporting cast of meat and potatoes, size and work ethic, but two paragraphs ago are posting about how bad Clifford and Simmonds are. Getting upset about the Malgin's of the world has never made sense to me because the 13th forwards just don't matter enough when we're discussing a GM's future and I don't blame the GM for trying to moneyball a little bit. I don't care what conventional wisdom has to say, good hockey players come in all shapes and sizes and I'm not mad that he tried for unconventional success stories. Ennis is one of the most successful fourth liners we've had in this entire era, telling me that he never belonged here in the first place just tells me that you have a rigid opinion of team building.

But at the end of the day, if we have no cap space because of the big 4 bet, what else is he supposed to do with the bottom six? We can't plunder the defense (which I think Dubas has done quite a good job with over the years), and we've already running shoestring budget goallies. How are we supposed to have good consistent depth with no cap space? That is simply the consequence of the big 4 bet and the flat cap and there's no other way around it. When I see people say that they like the big 4 bet and then blame Dubas for the consequences of having no cap space, that's where I see that the logic has died. If we wanted better depth, we needed to end the big 4 experiment long ago, because all of this is just how that bet is playing out.

Goaltending is the one place that I think is truly the Achilles Heel, and will be what tips the scales if Dubas is fired.
 
It's almost comical how bad Dubas' offseason was.

Jarnkrok is completely invisible.
Murray out long term after only 1 game :laugh:
Not moving Muzzin or having some kind of back up plan is currently sinking the D
NAK and ZAR are utterly useless

Samsonov is the only thing keeping it from complete disaster.
 
It pretty much has to be Marner.

I used to want Nylander traded because all the way back to his Marlie days he was often floating and not engaged. But he's changed, particularly in the playoffs, whereas Marner is still the same.

The only question is, how would Matthews handle Marner being traded?

That’s the hand in hand problem we need to see. Trade Marner for equal talent in return and Matthews should be a big boy and play with some fire.

If he broods and is sad he lost his BFF we know he is just as big as a problem as Marner.

Derozan left, Lowry was sad but he played even better with Kawhi and was a good leader on the team.

Trade either Marner or Matthews and we will know what we have in either of those guys.
 
I've been his supporter and it is easy to use hindsight if you were someone who didn't like him from day 1 because you were on Team Lou or Hunter.

But there are two things. All GMs make mistakes, as has Dubas. Some fans blew as gasket after mistake #1 and kept it going from there. But now, the mistakes are mounting. Mistakes happen. They are forgivable. And many here exaggerated certain ones when they weren't really an issue at all. But at this point there have been a few too many.

But bigger for me, is the willingness to change certain things. I'm not one of those ones who felt the core 4 had to change or the team needed big sweeping changes and yadda yadda.

But there were little moves here and there he could have made but decided to run it back. And I get it. You believe in the core. And honestly, it's kind of wild they haven't won one round. So my guess is, he feels you flip a coin 7 times, odds are it won't be tails 7 times. So I get it.

But after 6 chances, something has to give. You can believe in your core, but obviously after 6 times, something isn't right, you should probably act on it. Here is my example.

Kerfoot. Nice player, contract is fair, good to have in the lineup. But odds are you aren't re-signing him. And this team has a little too much of the same.

Holl. Now this is obviously before the injuries. But you have Brodie signed. Liljegren has been a success story and is helping solidify the right side. You can finally move on from Holl in that sense. Kerfoot + Holl combine for $5.5M. Trade them for picks. Then use that $5.5M on someone with a little bit of a different element that this team lacks. Not sure the exact player, but someone with an edge, scoring and good experience who can play in the top 9.

Or, a Muzzin replacement with less mileage. These are moves you can make here and there that don't shake up your core but can certainly help and add to it. And it's that kind of thing that is sealing it for me. The refusal to do those kind of moves. You can say the team is capped out and all, but honestly, there is always a way of making things work, and that is one example without tearing apart the core.
 
The bottom 6 has been poorly constructed for this season and that’s all on him.







The numbers back up all of our eye tests, NAK, ZAR, and Jarnkrok have all sucked and the team is suffering because of it.
 
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However when Dubas refused to believe that his reinventing hockey has failed
This is such a silly narrative. Nothing about the Leafs is reinventing hockey, it is simply that we have no depth because we bet it all on $40m for four forwards. They go out there and play high risk, high reward hockey, and if the core isn't flying, the team has no other tools to consistently win games. We don't have goalies who can steal them, and we don't have the depth to score enough goals to win. The only reinventing that happens is when Matthews and Marner do cool shit, the rest of the time the Leafs just play a mediocre game built around speed and skill. They play way too much fancy bullcrap where they try and skill the puck into the net with perfect looks, but I can flip through the channels and find half a dozen teams doing that on any given night. There is nothing new about speed nor skill in hockey, and it wins plenty of cups. We don't win cups (or playoff rounds lol) because our big 4 simply don't have the guts and we have no cap space for the necessary supporting cast.
 
The problem with the flat cap argument is that it completely ignores the fact that as the cap increases, so do all the other salaries. The salary cap increasing is inflationary in nature with respect to salaries across the league.

So the 5 million dollar UFA player one year becomes a 5.5 million dollar player the next year coinciding with the cap increase.

The Leafs problem is two fold;

—They committed too much money to too few of the same type of forwards

—They overpaid some of those same players and allowed other RFA players to leverage those contracts as comparables and get overly friendly player deals

The Leafs problem is more a salary cap allocation issue than it is a salary cap problem.

That has left them scrambling and trying to use prospects and draft picks as incentive capital to compensate teams for obtaining players on salary cap friendly contracts.

Eventually the cupboard will be bare at this rate.

Ok, but if the cap continues to go up, eventually your stars are playing on bargain contracts, as Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin were. You'd be closer to that with Matthew's and Marner if the cap had been going up...

Who is overpaid? Probably Marner. But he's a real talent that still has room to grow all aspects of his game. I would love to have Nylander at his cap hit.
 
The bottom 6 has been poorly constructed for this season and that’s all on him.







The numbers back up all of our eye tests, NAK, ZAR, and Jarnkrok have all sucked and the team is suffering because of it.

Boy, people will do anything to absolve the stars of blame. Matthews and Marner are the heart and the engine of the team, it's no coincidence that the team is playing flat when the two big guns are flat. Sometimes the charts forget that hockey players are humans and humans are effected by things like motivation and leadership.

I've played hockey (badly) my entire life and one of the things that I've learned is that a team will go where its leaders take it. NAK won a Stanley Cup last year. ZAR was a capable 4th liner on the Penguins. Jarnkrok has been a good soldier his entire career. Each one of those guys has a history of playing perfectly good hockey when they've been on functional teams where the leaders are engaged and working hard.

Every single night, our entire bottom six makes less money as a unit than one of our three highest paid players. When they watch Matthews and Marner hop over the boards and play like they don't give a shit, that seeps into the water bottles and poisons the bench. Good soldiers can look absolutely awful when they have weak leadership. We'll judge these guys when they're playing for a team that isn't completely broken.
 
This is such a silly narrative. Nothing about the Leafs is reinventing hockey, it is simply that we have no depth because we bet it all on $40m for four forwards. They go out there and play high risk, high reward hockey, and if the core isn't flying, the team has no other tools to consistently win games. We don't have goalies who can steal them, and we don't have the depth to score enough goals to win. The only reinventing that happens is when Matthews and Marner do cool shit, the rest of the time the Leafs just play a mediocre game built around speed and skill. They play way too much fancy bullcrap where they try and skill the puck into the net with perfect looks, but I can flip through the channels and find half a dozen teams doing that on any given night. There is nothing new about speed nor skill in hockey, and it wins plenty of cups. We don't win cups (or playoff rounds lol) because our big 4 simply don't have the guts and we have no cap space for the necessary supporting cast.
Could be wrong, but the poster may be referring to Dubas and his like for analytics and possession style game over the traditional crash and bang top 6 bottom 6 stuff.

There was a main reason I was excited they chose Dubas. Some mentioned he was inexperienced. But like. This team had been going with old, experienced and traditional hockey minds since who knows when. Even JFJ, he was inexperienced, but was still traditional. And guess what. That hadn't worked for the team in close to 50 years.

Especially when you witness what we went through after the '05 lockout. Teams taking advantage of a newer style of play in the league and not only developing their own players, but players that actually had talent. While we just had a mishmash of aging players and 0 skill in the pipeline, we watched teams bearing fruit from the the early 2000s drafts just skate circles around us with amazing hockey talent.

After what we went through with Burke and Nonis, i was downright shocked more people weren't ready for some more progressive thinking or at least a shakeup to the traditional thinking that didn't win us a Cup for 50 years. Now years later, Dubas hasn't led the team anywhere either. But I was all for something different when strategies led by people with their heads stuck in the 70s didn't work. Turns out, this hasn't worked either. Now we need to find out what will.
 
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Your teams biggest problem was the pandemic and the resultant flat cap.

The big 4 contracts implicitly assumed the cap would continue to rise. Because that has stalled, it's been very hard to bring in good secondary pieces with so little cap space. You guys should be in better shape as the cap rises...

But, you need a GM that can get a good goalie.
Every team believed that the cap would rise as predicted. Only one team pushed in ALL of their chips based on that belief.
 
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