Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

[Gabriel426]

@DarkKnight was the poster you commented on. He said leafs were soft...

You responded by saying
Your personal opinion =/= "the entire league's universal opinion

Which most others agrees meant you disagree with dark night.

However when I asked if you disagrees with the poster and think we are not soft.

You responded

for the whole "soft" thing, some people just don't realize or refuse to accept that the game has changed in the last 30 years, and what they're expecting is not a reality for any team.

We are less physical than some teams, because we prioritize positioning and possession, and have the puck more than most teams. We don't try to injure people, and we don't lick people's faces. We don't go out looking to pick fights. But that doesn't make a team "soft". If we are in a rough and tumble type of games, like the Winnipeg game, we can handle things just fine and dish some out ourselves.

this is weird because the initial lost you responded to, didn't say anything about face licking and looking for fights.... That poster just said we were soft. Even more ironic is you said his opinion was = to universal... But in the above post you have spoken for the entire board and seemingly decided that everyone thinks soft means they don't lick face and looks for fights. Can you point us out to these posts where people have constantly said this is what not being soft is? Because judging by the responses you've gotten most disagree that your definition of what others feel soft means is way off.

What your doing is attacking a straw man.... where you took a posters comment turned it into an argument that it wasn't and then attacked that argument.

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

just trying to help you out with your posts.

Even though I have a pretty good idea who you are responding to, can’t see the quote as he is on my ignore. I must say, you done a great job in this post.

 

[The Masters]

Fire Dubas and Keefe, take the Habs approach and hire a ex player. What’s Gilmour up to

St louis already a top 10 coach in the league IMO , just thinks the game different and can really connect

 

[Dreakmur]

Ah okay, so now analytics aren't bad, just the Leafs'.

So now the issues with the Leafs are a bad analytics department, a bad GM, a bad coach, and bad players.

It really is a miracle we have even won a game.

It takes a multitude of failures to arrive at the mess we’ve become.

 

[notbias]

Fire Dubas and Keefe, take the Habs approach and hire a ex player. What’s Gilmour up to

Keefe is an ex-player.

 

[Dreakmur]

Keefe is an ex-player.

Who happens to be a very bad coach. Let’s hire a good coach.

 

[Stephen]

My biggest beef with Dubas -- and in hindsight, not really fault of his own -- was he was touted as this next big thing who was going to revolutionize the GM'ing position with all these new fancy analytics and stats. Him and Chayka were going to pave the way that dismantles the "old boys club" which has supposedly littered the league for decades.

So with big talk came big expectations. And he hasn't succeeded in that. The big four is awesome and nice to have, but chewing up half the cap has been problematic. His drafting was highly touted, and while it does take years for it to be realized, only Robertson is showing fruits of that labour, and that's if he is given a chance. The depth has been subpar. And surprisingly, he's hitched his wagon to average, injury-prone goalies.

I've said it before, Dubas is a top notch person. He cares about his players on a human level. And despite the fact that I'd have no problem if he were replaced, I'm actually okay if he continues on also since there's no guarantee the new GM would make things better short term, considering the team's time is now and not five years from now.

I've just never liked the "I'm the smartest person in the room" aura he lets off, and I've certainly tempered my expectations when fans have talked about his like he is this great GM.

As I suggested in this thread a week or two ago, he has seriously boxed himself into a corner here, and the margin for error and wiggle room to get out of it is minimal at best.

I see Dubas' brand as more about proving how smart he is than quietly doing a great job, to the detriment of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Maybe because they had their time as superstars in this league as players but I don't see GM's like Yzerman, Sakic sticking their head out loudly broadcasting how they're responsible for this failure or they have this unshakable belief in whatever. I don't see any personal branding associated with guys like BriseBois. They just build and adapt and do their jobs. Nobody's untouchable. Game plans change.

Dubas has turned everything into some kind of referendum. Unbalanced, top heavy salary cap. Superficial offensive dominance and budget everything else. The stubbornness in echewing standard roster construction, role players, size at certain positions, balance, personality, leadership. All the details of the game that he doesn't understand, he doesn't value. And the Leafs are weak at all those departments. T

The guy just doesn't get it. He thinks he's smarter than everyone else in the room, but when you look at the GM landscape, the smartest ones are the ones not letting on, quietly going about their business.

 

[notbias]

Who happens to be a very bad coach. Let’s hire a good coach.

Ex-player was the suggestion...

Still not sure he is a bad coach though since I am reading that this is all Dubas' fault for the construction of the team, also Matthews and Marner are now terrible too.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Shanny adamitting they need to make changes and the roster isn’t working . Also saying he steered the leafs in the wrong directions . Big changes better be coming

Leafs President Brendan Shanahan admits to steering the Leafs down a more skilled road than a gritty one

The Leafs have had a tough go of it so far this season and most of what is preventing the

www.mapleleafsinsider.com

I have been saying this for years. It's always been Shanny who wanted the Russian 5 replicated here. He is the one that doesn't realize that Detroit didn't win shit until they got players like HIM on board. I still think Dubas has made many mistakes...but the whole PP will be our enforcer came from Shanny and Babs more than anyone else.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I see Dubas' brand as more about proving how smart he is than quietly doing a great job, to the detriment of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Maybe because they had their time as superstars in this league as players but I don't see GM's like Yzerman, Sakic sticking their head out loudly broadcasting how they're responsible for this failure or they have this unshakable belief in whatever. I don't see any personal branding associated with guys like BriseBois. They just build and adapt and do their jobs. Nobody's untouchable. Game plans change.

Dubas has turned everything into some kind of referendum. Unbalanced, top heavy salary cap. Superficial offensive dominance and budget everything else. The stubbornness in echewing standard roster construction, role players, size at certain positions, balance, personality, leadership. All the details of the game that he doesn't understand, he doesn't value. And the Leafs are weak at all those departments. T

The guy just doesn't get it. He thinks he's smarter than everyone else in the room, but when you look at the GM landscape, the smartest ones are the ones not letting on, quietly going about their business.

It's kind of like High School. We all knew the kid who talked about how far he got with the girls and bragged endlessly...we also found out he was washing his sisters hair on Saturday night.

 

[killer1980]

It's kind of like High School. We all knew the kid who talked about how far he got with the girls and bragged endlessly...we also found out he was washing his sisters hair on Saturday night.

I don't have a sister!

 

[peconcan]

Keefe is an ex-player.

I know I meant more of a Hall of fame type player like St Louis Yzerman and Sakic. Keefe played what 200 games? Ya that’s 200 more than any of us but he doesn’t have a very impressive player resume

 

[Dreakmur]

Ex-player was the suggestion...

Still not sure he is a bad coach though since I am reading that this is all Dubas' fault for the construction of the team, also Matthews and Marner are now terrible too.

Team construction is poor, but Keefe also chose to be a doormat.

 

[notbias]

I know I meant more of a Hall of fame type player like St Louis Yzerman and Sakic. Keefe played what 200 games? Ya that’s 200 more than any of us but he doesn’t have a very impressive player resume

Patrick Roy did well

Team construction is poor, but Keefe also chose to be a doormat.

He specifically said he clarified things for the media, but whatever narrative works for you.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don't have a sister!

This isn't one of those trailer park Aunty/Mommy situations is it?

 

[Dreakmur]

He specifically said he clarified things for the media, but whatever narrative works for you.

That was just episode 26 of that show. The players have been his boss since he was hired.

 

[notbias]

That was just episode 26 of that show. My baseless opinion is that the players have been his boss since he was hired.

fixed that for you

Thinking the players run the team is insane.

Do you think everyone from ownership down would be fine with that?

 

[Gabriel426]

I see Dubas' brand as more about proving how smart he is than quietly doing a great job, to the detriment of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Maybe because they had their time as superstars in this league as players but I don't see GM's like Yzerman, Sakic sticking their head out loudly broadcasting how they're responsible for this failure or they have this unshakable belief in whatever. I don't see any personal branding associated with guys like BriseBois. They just build and adapt and do their jobs. Nobody's untouchable. Game plans change.

Dubas has turned everything into some kind of referendum. Unbalanced, top heavy salary cap. Superficial offensive dominance and budget everything else. The stubbornness in echewing standard roster construction, role players, size at certain positions, balance, personality, leadership. All the details of the game that he doesn't understand, he doesn't value. And the Leafs are weak at all those departments. T

The guy just doesn't get it. He thinks he's smarter than everyone else in the room, but when you look at the GM landscape, the smartest ones are the ones not letting on, quietly going about their business.

What you described Dubas can really be apply to a lot of people I work with in their mid 20s to early 30s. They think they are smarter than everybody else and believe in their ways above anyone else. Now a few of them are smarter but most of them just think they are smarter which in fact, they are all average at best.

 

[Gabriel426]

Patrick Roy did well



He specifically said he clarified things for the media, but whatever narrative works for you.

That’s the thing, Why did Keefe thinks he needed to clarify with the Media?
Is it bc Keefe thinking too much in that he needs to be politically correct? Or he needs to do that bc he doesn’t want the players to think otherwise? Or he spoke with the players and thought it is best to clarify with the medias too?
At the end of the day, one can blame Keefe for thinking too much….but the cause of that is related to the players. If the players are tough as nail mentally and just laugh off anything and carry on with their play, Keefe doesn’t need to clarify anything.
This also goes back to how Babs needed to fly to Arizona to play golf while visit AM after being eliminated in the playoffs.

I really think the MGT are really mistreating the players and not shaping them to play for the team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

just trying to help you out with your posts.

No, you're trying to misrepresent the discussion that you weren't even part of. The individual I replied to attempted to represent his own opinion as the "entire league's universal opinion", and I merely replied and said that his opinion is not equal to the entire league's opinion. You then asked me a question, and even though you were quite rude, I answered your question. I explained our style of play and why I disagree with the label of "soft" and "easy to play against".

You cherry picked out a couple words from my statement and talked about how the original person didn't say those specific things in his post, but that's because the individual didn't say anything in his post. He just arbitrarily tried to apply a label to the team and declare that it was how everybody felt, with no explanation or reasoning. I didn't try and speak for everybody or for anybody in particular. My response was to you, not him, so I noted the types of flashy displays that have historically been discussed on this board and impact perceptions for some.

It's hilarious that you're attempting to suggest it's a strawmen when I've literally had multiple people reply to that exact post in this thread and state that it was an accurate description of the team and why they apply those labels, not realizing that it's a horrible reason to apply those labels.

 

[Pebble live]

Personally I don't blame Keefe for this. This make up of a roster is pretty bad to be honest. I don't understand what Dubas's vision is at all.

 

[dubey]

Personally I don't blame Keefe for this. This make up of a roster is pretty bad to be honest. I don't understand what Dubas's vision is at all.

I assume he's developed some propriety metric that combines player performance and salary and forms his team solely based on that single metric. And it's not working and he has no idea why.

 

[Dreakmur]

fixed that for you

Thinking the players run the team is insane.

Do you think everyone from ownership down would be fine with that?

So you think Keefe wants the players to not try and be selfish?

 

[Dreakmur]

No, you're trying to misrepresent the discussion that you weren't even part of. The individual I replied to attempted to represent his own opinion as the "entire league's universal opinion", and I merely replied and said that his opinion is not equal to the entire league's opinion. You then asked me a question, and even though you were quite rude, I answered your question. I explained our style of play and why I disagree with the label of "soft" and "easy to play against".

You cherry picked out a couple words from my statement and talked about how the original person didn't say those specific things in his post, but that's because the individual didn't say anything in his post. He just arbitrarily tried to apply a label to the team and declare that it was how everybody felt, with no explanation or reasoning. I didn't try and speak for everybody or for anybody in particular. My response was to you, not him, so I noted the types of flashy displays that have historically been discussed on this board and impact perceptions for some.

It's hilarious that you're attempting to suggest it's a strawmen when I've literally had multiple people reply to that exact post in this thread and state that it was an accurate description of the team and why they apply those labels, not realizing that it's a horrible reason to apply those labels.

The posted said everyone, which was obviously used figuratively. You chose to pretend he meant it literally, and since you can’t argue the actual point, you argued the semantics.

 

[The Masters]

Tell me what you guys / girls feel about this perspective:

I feel the Leafs are actually a good team but have taken so many losses in the first round that they feel like they are now mentally drained and feel like they are just spinning their wheels this season. There is clearly a mental exhaustion of going through ANOTHER regular season and hoping they get past the first round.

The team clearly needed a shake up and just something different (just like Raps did) and I think it would have benefited them to getting that "fresh mind"

 

[Dekes For Days]

The posted said everyone, which was obviously used figuratively. You chose to pretend he meant it literally, and since you can’t argue the actual point, you argued the semantics.

The poster said "the entire league's universal opinion", nothing there or since indicates it was merely used figuratively (in fact, they have only doubled down), and I have addressed both the point and the attempt to apply one's own personal feelings to thousands of people.