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Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

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To me it comes down to how the team plays, not how far they go.

Like if this team plays like garbage and scrapes by an injury riddled wildcard in round one and then gets blown out in the second round is that a successful season because they "won a round"? Same goes the other way, if they put up a good effort against a top contender I don't think you move on because of an arbitrary threshold.

I get the fan sentiment. I'll cheer a win and be pissed at a loss regardless of how it happens but I'm a fan not the GM. It's not my job to worry about the long-term management of the team.
 
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ToDavid said:
To me it comes down to how the team plays, not how far they go.

Like if this team plays like garbage and scrapes by an injury riddled wildcard in round one and then gets blown out in the second round is that a successful season because they "won a round"? Same goes the other way, if they put up a good effort against a top contender I don't think you move on because of an arbitrary threshold.

I get the fan sentiment. I'll cheer a win and be pissed at a loss regardless of how it happens but I'm a fan not the GM. It's not my job to worry about the long-term management of the team.
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It's not that arbitrary of a threshold because at this point getting past round one should be below the standard.

That were still basically saying maybe if we play well in round one we'll take him is pretty ridiculous in year 5 of this process and still discussing a moral Victory first round loss as being acceptable is pretty ridiculous considering the goal is to win a cup
 
The Masters said:
No ones ignoring it - that's just the reality of the situation. He took it over and produced good results in the regular season. We can't come up with hypotheticals on that. What if he took over a bottom dweller and acquired the core (even though he was the AGM during this time) and built the team up? How does the perspective change. It doesn't really matter. We have the body of work since he took over and we judge him on that.
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the team he took over already had good results , it's not like they were struggling with the elite kids and then had success once he took over and there would be a massive difference in how he'd be viewed if he built the core

i'll put it this way , is Stan Bowman viewed as a genius by baby sitting and not screwing up an already built team to 3 cups ?

or

is Rutherford a genius for adding pieces around Sid/Geno ?

i evaluate a GM from where he started and where he took the team and for me i don't see Dubas as being irreplaceable (to put it nicely) like some seem to believe
 
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hotpaws said:
the team he took over already had good results , it's not like they were struggling with the elite kids and then had success once he took over and there would be a massive difference in how he'd be viewed if he built the core

i'll put it this way , is Stan Bowman viewed as a genius by baby sitting and not screwing up an already built team to 3 cups ?

or

is Rutherford a genius for adding pieces around Sid/Geno ?

i evaluate a GM from where he started and where he took the team and for me i don't see Dubas as being irreplaceable (to put it nicely) like some seem to believe
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No i dont look at it that way. I judge him on the body of work and each situation is different. He's had very good regular season success with minimal playoff success. He has to figure that out and at the same time continue drafting and developing well to keep the machine going. As a whole, he's done a good job. I don't see anyone out there as an improvement right now.
 
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rocketman588 said:
It's not that arbitrary of a threshold because at this point getting past round one should be below the standard.

That were still basically saying maybe if we play well in round one we'll take him is pretty ridiculous in year 5 of this process and still discussing a moral Victory first round loss as being acceptable is pretty ridiculous considering the goal is to win a cup
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It's not a moral victory. Like you said, the goal is the cup. A team that plays well but loses is a better bet for a future cup than a team that sneaks into the second round on a soft matchup and gets dummied.

From a managerial standpoint, everyone who doesn't win 16 gets the same participation ribbon. That said, to be clear I'm not saying winning is completely irrelevant. Obviously winning is usually a sign of a team playing well. I just don't buy that it's as simple as winning one more game in round one then we did last year. How they win/lose should be considered.
 
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ToDavid said:
It's not a moral victory. Like you said, the goal is the cup. A team that plays well but loses is a better bet for a future cup than a team that sneaks into the second round on a soft matchup and gets dummied.

From a managerial standpoint, everyone who doesn't win 16 gets the same participation ribbon. That said, to be clear I'm not saying winning is completely irrelevant. Obviously winning is usually a sign of a team playing well. I just don't buy that it's as simple as winning one more game in round one then we did last year. How they win/lose should be considered.
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I mean we've also lost to the 18 seed in the playoffs and a 9 seed. Winning a round is such a ridiculously low bar with 2 generational talents It's pretty laughable.

At some point you have to make changes if you can't get it done
 
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rocketman588 said:
I mean we've also lost to the 18 seed in the playoffs and a 9 seed. Winning a round is such a ridiculously low bar with 2 generational talents It's pretty laughable.

At some point you have to make changes if you can't get it done
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yup we had 2 soft matchups and still failed but that also gets overlooked on top of acknowledging where Dubie started from so now it's ''oh the team Dubie iced was great because we gave Tampa a tough go and got mad props while shaking hands''

and the excuses have already started to extend him even if we fail again this year
-we have to keep him because Mathews will leave if he gets replaced
-we have to keep him because it's not his fault he believed in the core and it's on them if we fail
-we have to keep him because there's no one that could do a better job

30 of 32 teams have won a round in the cap era , it's just us and the Kraken who haven't so i have no idea why anyone would still support him if we can't at the very least win a round
 
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zeke said:
if we fired every GM that hasn't won a cup there wouldn't be many left.
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So you're just ok with accomplishing by your count nothing because you like the guy

Less then nothing because we can't even get a moral Victory of even winning around.

Seems like we're ok with being a mediocre built team that will most likely never win a cup ( so by your logic never accomplish anything) because the GM is an "outsider" ( despite him being handed multiple jobs because of his father)
 
rocketman588 said:
So you're just ok with accomplishing by your count nothing because you like the guy

Less then nothing because we can't even get a moral Victory of even winning around.

Seems like we're ok with being a mediocre built team because the GM is an "outsider" ( despite him being handed multiple jobs because of his father)
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I don't care for moral victories of any kind, and you guys would hate the guy even if we had won a few rounds.

All I care about is how good the team he builds is, and this team is very, very, very good.
 
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rocketman588 said:
So you're just ok with accomplishing by your count nothing because you like the guy

Less then nothing because we can't even get a moral Victory of even winning around.

Seems like we're ok with being a mediocre built team that will most likely never win a cup ( so by your logic never accomplish anything) because the GM is an "outsider" ( despite him being handed multiple jobs because of his father)
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I didn't see 31 GM's fired this offseason.

I guess every one of those teams is happy with a losing culture.
 
zeke said:
I don't care for moral victories of any kind, and you guys would hate the guy even if we had won a few rounds.

All I care about is how good the team he builds is, and this team is very, very, very good.
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16, 34, 88, 44 and 01 are very, very good. the rest of the team are just OK and hence why Shanny is the only President that can say he has lost 6 consecutive first round series. Ain't that a shame??
 
hotpaws said:
take away Mathews/Marner/Nylander/Rielly which he inherited what has he built ?
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Aside from keeping those 4 players, 3/4 of whom this board has wanted him to trade away, he has built the other 80% of the team.
 
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zeke said:
I don't care for moral victories of any kind, and you guys would hate the guy even if we had won a few rounds.

All I care about is how good the team he builds is, and this team is very, very, very good.
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Appearently it's not actually

Because we've only gotten moral victories and accomplished nothing even according to you.

So why is the team build good in your opinion? We have done absolutely 0 since we haven't won a cup and according to you it's a 1 or 0 proposition where winning the cup means you're good and everything else is a moral Victory.

Seems like you've overestimated how good our team actually is by your own standard

Unless you're evaluating it solely on one condition which is that Dubas is the GM and attempt to fit every narrative to fit that.

Since your narrative is thats not winning a cup is a moral Victory and that's why round wins done matter. Then our team build is not very good sorry to say.
 
Anyways I actually didn't notice which thread I was on and actually want to leave this space to you guys to vent. I think it's healthy for you guys and the board and don't want to bother you guys too much here on this thread. So I'm stepping out of this convo.
 
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I didn't see 31 GM's fired this offseason.
kb said:
I guess every one of those teams is happy with a losing culture.
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Because no one evaluates teams based on the 1 or 0 cup philosophy

The only people who do do so because Dubas has never won a round in the playoffs
 
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hotpaws said:
the other 80% doesn't sniff the playoffs without the payers he inherited
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What kind of dumb logic is this? Of course, if you remove the best 4-5 players (not sure who you consider being inherited), then they won't make the playoffs.

If you give him the cap to work with from those players, I bet they still make it though.
 
hotpaws said:
take away Mathews /Marner/Nylander/Rielly which he inherited what has he built ?
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LOL. More like, given away.
rocketman588 said:
Appearently it's not actually

Because we've only gotten moral victories and accomplished nothing even according to you.

So why is the team build good in your opinion? We have done absolutely 0 since we haven't won a cup and according to you it's a 1 or 0 proposition where winning the cup means you're good and everything else is a moral Victory.

Seems like you've overestimated how good our team actually is by your own standard

Unless you're evaluating it solely on one condition which is that Dubas is the GM and attempt to fit every narrative to fit that.

Since your narrative is thats not winning a cup is a moral Victory and that's why round wins done matter. Then our team build is not very good sorry to say.
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Predicting Leafs to sweep Tampa pretty much confirms that. For me it is all in the past. The way I see it (hope) is that Tampa, Florida and Boston have taken a bigger step back than we have so we should be the favourite to win the Atlantic. Carolina, Rangers and Caps are the other favourites to come out of the East.

Here's hoping this is the year the usual suspects are right and we go through the playoffs like a bull in a China shop.
 
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notbias said:
What kind of dumb logic is this? Of course, if you remove the best 4-5 players (not sure who you consider being inherited), then they won't make the playoffs.

If you give him the cap to work with from those players, I bet they still make it though.
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the logic is the best players on this team were here when he was promoted

it's not who i think he inherited , he actually inherited Mathews/Marner/Nylander/Rielly among others like Kadri/Andy/Brown who he dumped for nothing

and trying to build your core through free agency only gets you over paid declining players like Tavars
 
hotpaws said:
the logic is the best players on this team were here when he was promoted

it's not who i think he inherited , he actually inherited Mathews/Marner/Nylander/Rielly among others like Kadri/Andy/Brown who he dumped for nothing

and trying to build your core through free agency only gets you over paid declining players like Tavars
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So you fault him for not winning in the playoffs with the same players he inherited but clearly think they are amazing players, not following, mind explaining?

Also, not sure you know what the word "nothing" means.
 
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