ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
You're going way to far the other way on this
I didn't say Frank wasn't a good pick
Just commenting that calling him a 4 time "Selke" "winner" is not accurate
ATD 2021 Draft Thread III
- Thread starter ImporterExporter
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You're going way to far the other way on this
I didn't say Frank wasn't a good pick
Just commenting that calling him a 4 time "Selke" "winner" is not accurate
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
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There is an article in the Globe and Mail substantiating a lot of players speed including Apps and Flash Hollett.
I have lost my reference to the original but here is the post where I refer to it and the text. It should be easy to find on that basis.
Canadiens1958 has a reference to it here The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités
EDIT - I'm dumb I reference the date and author from the globe in the post if you want to look it up.
I have lost my reference to the original but here is the post where I refer to it and the text. It should be easy to find on that basis.
Canadiens1958 has a reference to it here The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités
EDIT - I'm dumb I reference the date and author from the globe in the post if you want to look it up.
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Dreakmur
Registered User
Finnigan is probably the best 3rd line RW you could have taken.
VanIslander
20+ years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
I have never drafted Hollett.
Probably won't ever.
The reason? He should be a 6th~7th dman 2nd team pp imo.
He began his NHL career in 1933 but didn't get glory until deep into the war years, the clearly depleted 1942-45 seasons.
He was sent to the IHL three times in the 1930s after his NHL debut. And to the AHL. And to the Can-Am.
By "utility" man you must mean toilet guy.
Scratch & sniff. He doesn't pass the test.
As 6th dman,... okay. Not great. Fine.
Probably won't ever.
The reason? He should be a 6th~7th dman 2nd team pp imo.
He began his NHL career in 1933 but didn't get glory until deep into the war years, the clearly depleted 1942-45 seasons.
He was sent to the IHL three times in the 1930s after his NHL debut. And to the AHL. And to the Can-Am.
By "utility" man you must mean toilet guy.
Scratch & sniff. He doesn't pass the test.
As 6th dman,... okay. Not great. Fine.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
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Btw, unless overpass's "DVsX" is something very different than how we've used that initialism in the past, it's not something that measures defensive play for anyone. It's putting point totals by defensemen in context, which should not only illuminate different scoring environments, but also how different positions were invited to participate in the play (e.g. Erik Karlsson played in a lower scoring era than Paul Coffey, but he also played in an era where teams were only putting one defenseman on the power play for the most part.) So you'd look at how far Karlsson is ahead of Brent Burns on the scoreboard without any forwards cluttering the list up, or how far behind Bobby Orr Guy Lapointe was.
Finnigan is a good pick and I was considering him for my 3RW part but I decided to go in Letang's direction at the 11th hour.
The biggest problem with "retro Selkes" is that people want to talk about them as if they're real things and not an attempt (good or not) to reconstruct information. Same thing as adjusted heights. It's irresponsible to say that Harvey Pulford was 6'4", but we do have a quick thumb scale to determine that no, he was not a small hockey player, not by a long shot.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
This makes 7 "Selkes" on my checking line with Carbo.
Frank Finnigan - RW
Stanley Cup Champion (1927, 1932)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1935, 1936)
Selke Trophy (1930*, 1933*, 1934*, 1936*)
Played in NHL All Star Game (1934)
Team Captain (1930-1931; 1932-1933)
#8 retired by the Ottawa Senators (1992)
Top-10 Scoring (9th, 10th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (6th, 6th)
Top-10 Playoff Scoring (5th, 8th, 8th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (3rd, 9th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty minutes (7th, 10th)
- Named the best defensive forward of the 1930's by Ultimate Hockey
- Named the best penalty-killer of the 1930's by Ultimate Hockey
- Brother of Ed Finnigan and father of Joan Finnigan, a published writer
- As he had to take the train from Shawville to Ottawa, Frank picked up the nickname of "Shawville Express"
- He received his first fee for playing hockey when he was 13, playing for Quyon against Fitzroy Harbour, for which he received $10
- Finnigan signed as a free agent by Ottawa Senators on February 21st, 1924
- On September 26th, 1931, he was claimed by the Toronto Maple Leafs from the Ottawa Senators for the 1931-32 season in thedispersal draft
- On march 15th, 1934, Finnigan scored the final Senators goal in the final season that the NHL Senators played in Ottawa. He scored an unassisted goal at the 1 minute, 7 second mark of the second period
- Transferred to the St-Louis Eagles after Ottawa Senators franchise relocated on September 30, 1934
- He was Traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs by the St-Louis Eagles for cash on February 13th, 1935
- Finnigan recorded the most game played in the Ottawa Senators franchise history with 363
- During World War II, Finnigan joined the Canadian Air Force
- When a movement began to bring back the Senators in the early 1990's, Finnigan was recruited as a living link to the team's illustrious past. Finnigan was scheduled to drop the first puck for the new Ottawa Senators expansion franchise, but died in 1991 from a heart attack on Christmas day
- He was the last surviving member of the 1927 Stanley Cup champion Senators and was also the oldest living NHL player
- The street in front of the main entrance to the Ottawa Senators' arena, the Scotiabank Place, is named the ''Frank Finnigan Way'' in his honour. There is also a restaurant inside Scotiabank Place named ''Frank Finnigan's''
Joe Pelletier said:
Frank Finnigan was born in Shawville, Quebec, only 75 km outside the city of Ottawa. It was in Ottawa that Finnigan established himself as a legend of hockey.1936-1939 Diamond Match Cover said:
Frank never got a chance to really play until the 1926-27 season. He responded well, scoring 15 goals in 36 games, and adding 3 more in 6 playoff contests en route to winning the Stanley Cup against Boston. "The Shawville Express" even managed to score the game winning goal in the first game of the finals!
When forward passing was finally allowed in all three zones in 1929, Frank had his best statistical year ever, posting 21 goals and 15 assists in 43 games.
Finnigan, an eight-year veteran who played a reliable two-way game, gave the Leafs a solid second line winger and an expert penalty killer. After playing a key role in the Leafs' 1932 Stanley Cup victory, Frank was returned to Ottawa.
Although he was small he was nearly impossible to knock off of his feet. He was strong as an ox, having worked as a telephone lineman in Ottawa prior to turning pro with the Sens. Finnigan was an extraordinary defensive forward.
---------------
Then there was Frank Finnigan, the "Shawville Express," who had his number 8 retired the new Senators when they returned to the league in 1992. He was a flawless defensive forward.
Click to expand...
Trail of the Stanley Cup said:
He became a regular in 1928, with Kilrea and Nighbor, and led the team in goals and points for two years. He was the policeman of the line and took a lot of penalties.Globe and Mail; June 1st said:
Seven of those 12 players — Connell, Clancy, Hooley Smith, Denneny, Nighbor, Boucher and Adams — are in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Many believe Fearless Frank Finnigan should also be there. As a fitting tribute, his sweater was retired by the current Senators not long after his death in 1991.
1933-34 O-Pee-Chee V304A #25 Frank Finnigan said:
-'' I'd label him as one of the finest right wingers in hockey. He could dish out the punishment and take it, too, as he flew down his wing. He was another straightaway skater. You could put a string out there and Finnigan would skate right up and down that line.'' - King Clancy
Click to expand...
-'' I'd give anything to have a team of Finnys.'' - Dick Irvin Sr.
Sites:
SIHR | Society for International Hockey Research
Legends of Hockey -- NHL Player Search -- Player -- Frank Finnigan
Frank Finnigan - Wikipedia
Ottawa Hockey Legends: Frank Finnigan
Authentic Game-worn Frank Finnigan Sweater
http://www.geegeehockey.com/m_history1910s1920s.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article763191.ece
If we believe Ultimate Hockey, he's right there with Provost and Westfall as the very best defensive RWs of all-time. That said, I'd like to see more contemporary support for that
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
They mean that he was a good defensive player in the years covered. Just how good requires a source beyond Ultimate Hockey
VanIslander
20+ years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Pulford sitting with his Silver Seven and the Stanley Cup.
He OWNS the room.
He was a championship running back in football and a champ in boxing. You can easily SEE why. Open your eyes. Would you go into an alley against him? (the Conn Smythe litmus test)
He OWNS the room.
He was a championship running back in football and a champ in boxing. You can easily SEE why. Open your eyes. Would you go into an alley against him? (the Conn Smythe litmus test)
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Pittsburgh will happily select one of the best utility men of the mid 30's through mid 40's, though his most prominent position was on D (found a really cool interview with him regarding his playing multiple positions and how the only spot he didn't like playing was RW, as he's a lefty).
He's in a perfect position to succeed on a squad that can greatly shelter him to increased PP usage (ringer) and offensive only draws though I've already found a few instances of praise for defensive play in preliminary searches. His offensive abilities allows Seibert to spend more time on the ice at ES. He's yet another high end skater who fits a key theme for Pittsburgh, he was big for his era, and quite underrated in the physical department as he fought some real heavyweights like Nels Stewart and is noted to have laid out/hurt opposing players, though his PIM totals are quite low for the era/style of play. His playoff vsx and record is quite strong for a player at this portion of the draft and was a key secondary member on both of Boston's SC titles in 39/41.
Pittsburgh is thrilled to add:
William "Flash" Hollett D/F
Awards and Achievements:
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1939, 1941)
First Team All-Star (1945)
Second Team All-Star (1943)
Red Wings captain from 1943 to 1946
Scoring:
Goals 10th(1942)
Points among Defensemen 1st(1939), 1st(1940), 1st(1943), 1st(1945), 2nd(1935), 2nd(1941), 2nd(1942), 4th(1944), 9th(1937)
Play-off Points 3rd(1943), 4th(1941), 5th(1945)
Play-off Points among Defensemen 1st(1939), 1st(1941), 1st(1943), 1st(1945), 2nd(1940), 5th(1938), 5th(1946)
Hollett's prime lasted from 1939 to 1945. Here's where he ranks within that time frame:
1st in Points among Defesemen
1st in Goals among Defensemen
2nd in Assists among Defensemen
1st in Play-off Points among Defensemen
2nd in Play-off Goals among Defensemen
1st in Play-off Assists among Defensemen
Next pick coming shortly.....
Nice we swapped the guys we made big time profiles for last time
tinyzombies
Registered User
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Pittsburgh will take arguably the best offensive LW available, and someone who has finally settled into the right range of the draft (275-300, though this is the longest he's lasted in forever). He's got the skating ability to keep up with either the 2nd or 3rd line C/RW combinations and he brings size and physicality that will come in handy wherever he ends up. Definitely slanted towards play making, he was used to playing with superior talent in NY so he won't be asked to do anything out of the ordinary here. His 2 way ability will also allow Orr/Seibert to more freely skate in/around the O zone, thus increasing the overall offensive ceiling of the skaters as a whole. His durability is incredibly good for the amount of time he played and the era he played in as well.
Pittsburgh will add the blue collar:
Fred "Bun" Cook, LW
Pittsburgh will add the blue collar:
Fred "Bun" Cook, LW
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Yep! It sold me on taking him around this point of the draft. Can really throw him around any part of the line up in an emergency situation and he won't completely suck (besides G of course haha), though most of his value is obviously at D.
It was really nice to see his game by game breakdown of being pushed all around the lineup so thoroughly ironed out. At least relative to what we had a few years ago. Might explain why he didn't get the AS votes in the late 30's, early 40's especially. Certainly is more plausible as one, we know of other players getting hurt in AS voting by being moved around (Syd Howe comes to mind) the lineup often and two, there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support the hypothesis he was terrible in his own end, as the reason for not getting more AS vote shares from say 35 to 42.
People also have to remember that in the mid to late 30's you had some serious competition for recognition as a Dman. Shore, Seibert, Clapper, Coulter, Goodfellow, etc. In 43 he was 2nd team AS behind Seibert/Jack Stewart and in 45 he was 1st team (with Butch Bouchard) over Babe Pratt notably so it's not like there weren't any other ATD level defenders giving him a run for votes.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Thanks bud.
His skating was a big factor. I think there are a handful of LW's that you can say would produce equally at ES but few possess the speed to keep up/not get blown away by Lemaire/Cournoyer or Hawerchuk/Anderson. And he does stuff that allows the other 2 a bit more freedom in the offensive zone.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Pittsburgh will take arguably the best offensive LW available, and someone who has finally settled into the right range of the draft (275-300, though this is the longest he's lasted in forever). He's got the skating ability to keep up with either the 2nd or 3rd line C/RW combinations and he brings size and physicality that will come in handy wherever he ends up. Definitely slanted towards play making, he was used to playing with superior talent in NY so he won't be asked to do anything out of the ordinary here. His 2 way ability will also allow Orr/Seibert to more freely skate in/around the O zone, thus increasing the overall offensive ceiling of the skaters as a whole. His durability is incredibly good for the amount of time he played and the era he played in as well.
Pittsburgh will add the blue collar:
Fred "Bun" Cook, LW
If you can find any primary source that Bun Cook did much of note away from the puck, I'd love to see it.
It's really easy to find info on Bill Cook's physicality and Frank Boucher's backchecking.
I spent about 2 hours on newspapers.com on him and the best I could find on Bun was that he was "clever." It's not easy to research Rangers players though, especially someone with a name like "Bun" "Cook"
Last year, Sturminator said he couldn't find anything about Bun Cook's supposed physical and defensive play either.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Basically, I couldn't chance someone whose "intangibles" are so up in the air next to a pair of shrimps like Bowie and Maltsev. At least you have Lemaire to help out there.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
The work has already commenced.
I did find this gem almost right off the bat. Who said hockey players weren't superstitious nearly a century ago? I absolutely love this subscription. I'm going to start keeping a file for neat photos and artistic impressions.
From the Ottawa Citizen 22 Dec 1930
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
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I did some preliminary research last time before my life fell apart on Bun (and the bread line in general). In some ways I wonder if we underrate him a bit - at least as far as his playoff performances go. He got a lot of ink in some of those Rangers Cup runs as a "straw that stirs the drink" player. I don't know if I would call him a defensive wonder, but I definitely got the vibe that he was a great glue guy and an opportunistic scorer.
I got a bit of an Ondrej Palat with slightly worse defense vibe, if that makes sense?
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Dreakmur
Registered User
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I'm getting a similar vibe already through 1930/31 though I've got a long, long way to go here. It's nice when the game reports are still more thorough. You get a better feel for the players, especially those who aren't the first rate superstars.
select LW Joe klukay- Status
