I think he’s certainly in the discussion for the best goaltender ever technically speaking. And only technically speaking. And by that I mean if you want to create the perfect prototype of what a goalie should look like on the ice, it’s Carey Price. And this opinion is a popular one among those involved in hockey. From a technical standpoint, at his best, he was picture perfect and the gold standard.
ATD 2021 Draft Thread III
- Thread starter ImporterExporter
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I think he’s certainly in the discussion for the best goaltender ever technically speaking. And only technically speaking. And by that I mean if you want to create the perfect prototype of what a goalie should look like on the ice, it’s Carey Price. And this opinion is a popular one among those involved in hockey. From a technical standpoint, at his best, he was picture perfect and the gold standard.
tinyzombies
Registered User
This era is just so difficult on goalies, and the goalies are next level too. We have the data now tho, so going forward they will be able to really quantify who was good.
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tabness
be a playa 🇵🇸
- Apr 4, 2014
- 3,217
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I will pick Ulf Samuelsson, one of those odd (at the time at least) pretty good skating mainly defensive defenseman. Played a bit with Murphy in Pittsburgh, very nice pairing. Also had no issues going after star players, which is great in this thing.
Also I should be -2, missed two picks, overnight clocks lol
Also I should be -2, missed two picks, overnight clocks lol
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Ulf was a guy you loathed if he was on the other team. A good guy to have in that time period though.
Didn't even realize you had been skipped a 2nd time. Honesty gets you that hour back in my book, but if anyone objects based solely on the rules, I'll mark it -2.
tony d
New poll series coming from me in June
Going to go with Lloyd cook and finish my top 6 on defense and reunite a real life pairing of art Duncan and Lloyd cook.
DitchMarner
What's The Definition of Impressive?
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
- 5,145
- 2,636
Picking a guy whose jersey I own while I'm technically on the clock should annoy me, but I wasn't going for Roberts, so that's fine.
Burn in hell for taking Sundin though.
And why did I want Sundin?
Well, I had just added Brind'amour and I wanted a pair of faceoff beasts down the middle, one left handed and the other right. I did get right-handed Ryan Getzlaf to go with my southpaw pair of Rod and Geno, but he's nothing to write home about on faceoffs.
So anyway, I've got that hole in my team, and looking at my power play units, only Shanahan reads as particularly suited to causing net-front chaos, so I'll need one of those.
I have all three forward positions on my fourth line to fill as well.
Enter Joe Pavelski, who will play...a position of some kind there. We'll see. He'll definitely be taking faceoffs though.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I'll start my bottom pairing off by completing this famous picture and select Frank Patrick, D
My 2017 bio
The gist of it, he was probably almost as good as Lester, just didn't play quite as long. Became more enamored with running the PCHA than playing in it
- 5'11, 185 lbs.
- With 70's fudge - 6'3, 225 lbs
- Stanley Cup (1915)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1918, 1923)
- PCHA First Team All-Star (1912, 1914)
- PCHA Second Team All-Star (1917)
- PCHA Assist Leader (1913)
- Top-10 in PCHA scoring 4 times (2nd, 4th, 6th, 10th)
- PCHA defense scoring leader all 4 full PCHA seasons he played (1912, 1913, 1914, 1917)
My 2017 bio
The gist of it, he was probably almost as good as Lester, just didn't play quite as long. Became more enamored with running the PCHA than playing in it
- 5'11, 185 lbs.
- With 70's fudge - 6'3, 225 lbs
- Stanley Cup (1915)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1918, 1923)
- PCHA First Team All-Star (1912, 1914)
- PCHA Second Team All-Star (1917)
- PCHA Assist Leader (1913)
- Top-10 in PCHA scoring 4 times (2nd, 4th, 6th, 10th)
- PCHA defense scoring leader all 4 full PCHA seasons he played (1912, 1913, 1914, 1917)
Dreakmur
Registered User
I'll start my bottom pairing off by completing this famous picture and select Frank Patrick, D
My 2017 bio
The gist of it, he was probably almost as good as Lester, just didn't play quite as long. Became more enamored with running the PCHA than playing in it
- 5'11, 185 lbs.
- With 70's fudge - 6'3, 225 lbs
- Stanley Cup (1915)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1918, 1923)
- PCHA First Team All-Star (1912, 1914)
- PCHA Second Team All-Star (1917)
- PCHA Assist Leader (1913)
- Top-10 in PCHA scoring 4 times (2nd, 4th, 6th, 10th)
- PCHA defense scoring leader all 4 full PCHA seasons he played (1912, 1913, 1914, 1917)
I find him tough to evaluate, mostly because he played so little. I’m not sure he wasn’t the best defenseman of that era when he was on the ice.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
He's got edit: 5 full PCHA seasons one ECAHA and one NHA.
When playing with Renfrew he was the point, Taylor the cover and Lester the rover which explains why Lester was 4th in league scoring.
Based on my perhaps rudimentary understanding of the point-cover dynamic to me it's impressive he scored as many goals as he did
Now that I have access to other western papers from the time I'll see if I can dig anything else up
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
- 5,145
- 2,636
A few things:
- Seventies' height fudge actually doesn't change the measurements for any player born after 1970. The reason being that players' sizes since then have plateaued, so even though the fudge used 20-year increments, there are changes at 1950, 1930 and so on, there's no change at 1990. So there's no assumption that players will continue to grow in the calculation.
- That said, the 20 year increments absolutely make the whole system worse. Why would Marcel Dionne and Joe Sakic receive the same adjustment, but Sakic gets treated differently than Pavel Bure and Dionne differently than Bobby Clarke? Because it's a very, very crude system.
- There's nothing about the system that deals with the recent downturn in overall player's weights, while overall players' heights haven't changed much. They're assumed to mostly march in lockstep.
- There's nothing in the system that deals with how many outliers exist. For example, heights haven't gone up at all since the mid 90s, but the number of guys over 6'5" have almost doubled.
There's something satisfying about arriving at a measurement that feels like it could fit a real person, though.
Personally, I'd prefer listing players by the average height for the midpoint of their careers, plus or minus however many inches or pounds. Heck, you could even preface that number with "6" and "200" if you wanted to imagine it measuring an actual person.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Yeah, he played some seasons before the PCHL, but those were his truly dominant years. He's got like 4.
I know his Wikipedia page has him playing a full season in 1915, but I can't find any other sources to confirm that. As far as I understand, he was elected PCHA president that year, and didn't play until the last few games.
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ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I wanted to double check the board, but I gambled I could wait until roughly this range and still get one of the last premier defensive wingers in history. Very fortunate here.
He mentored an earlier selection, Joe Klukay and was certainly in the conversation for best defensive winger/forward from the late 30's through the late 40's when he retired. Elite on the PK. He played everywhere throughout his career. Got some chances out on the LW with Apps but was mainly a checking LW. Centered a line with Drillon and undrafted.
Better playoff performer than the student (Klukay) and scored some very, very clutch goals for the Leafs. Key member on 4 title teams. Raised his scoring slightly from the regular seasons to postseason (0.48 to 0.51).
Another strong skater, who doesn't take many penalties, and regularly shows up in big games, and most importantly can shadow the top shelf RW's. Pittsburgh is thrilled to add:
Nick Metz, LW/C
bio by @EagleBelfour
ATD 2012 Bios Thread (as complete as possible: pic, quotes, stats, sources, etc)
He mentored an earlier selection, Joe Klukay and was certainly in the conversation for best defensive winger/forward from the late 30's through the late 40's when he retired. Elite on the PK. He played everywhere throughout his career. Got some chances out on the LW with Apps but was mainly a checking LW. Centered a line with Drillon and undrafted.
Better playoff performer than the student (Klukay) and scored some very, very clutch goals for the Leafs. Key member on 4 title teams. Raised his scoring slightly from the regular seasons to postseason (0.48 to 0.51).
Another strong skater, who doesn't take many penalties, and regularly shows up in big games, and most importantly can shadow the top shelf RW's. Pittsburgh is thrilled to add:
Nick Metz, LW/C
bio by @EagleBelfour
ATD 2012 Bios Thread (as complete as possible: pic, quotes, stats, sources, etc)
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
tinyzombies
Registered User
We are comparing careers here tho, and the height adjustment allows those players to be compared to contemporary players more closely in the dominance they had amongst their peers, no?
RustyRazor
né Selfish Man
Its been six hours, so it appears I'm up. I'm getting my coach here. Welcome to Portland, Cecil Hart (Coach)!
tinyzombies
Registered User
Claude The Fraud
Registered User
Team Canada would like to welcome, from Milton, Ontario, John Tonelli.
Dreakmur
Registered User
overpass
Registered User
The Ottawa Senators will take the late great #38, LW/RW/C Pavol Demitra.
Demitra scored at a point per game pace (615-251-365-616) over a 10 year period that included the dead puck era from 1997-98 to 2006-07.
Demitra scored at a point per game pace (615-251-365-616) over a 10 year period that included the dead puck era from 1997-98 to 2006-07.
overpass
Registered User
Good pick. I was going to take Tonelli at 368.
I saw he was criticized last ATD playoffs for his even strength VsX in a top six role...but I don't know if anyone mentioned that he led the whole Islanders dynasty in playoff even strength points. In the 1980-1983 playoffs he was 24-36-60 in 76 games at even strength.
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 15,908
- 5,548
Darn I wanted him.
Going with Bobby Rousseau, RW to play with Tavares at ES and man the point on our 2nd PP and probably to help out on the PK!
Dreakmur
Registered User
Darn I wanted him.
Going with Bobby Rousseau, RW to play with Tavares at ES and man the point on our 2nd PP and probably to help out on the PK!
He was my backup for Bobby Bauer. He brings a lot of nice extras like PP point man and PK ability.
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 15,908
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Yeah he does have a lot of utility for sure. Does anyone know where the idea that he was soft came from? There doesn't seem to be any good bios for Rousseau.
Dreakmur
Registered User
He was criticized for being a first liner, which was perfectly fair. He’s a third liner here, which is excellent.
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