ATD 2021 Draft Thread III

[ImporterExporter]

Updated Bryan Hextall Sr. bio if you are interested. The biggest find was:

Good stuff sir! Enjoying the bio's you're putting out there.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think the important thing when assigning value to a player, especially from the older eras, is you really need to find as much evidence to support a specific position as there obviously was no TV and nobody alive today that saw these guys, that we can ask directly.

For instance my Smokey Harris bio added a TON of value to him defensively, because not only did I find multiple direct quotes stating he was without equal in backchecking in the PCHA (his first AS nod was given specifically for that reason), over multiple points of his career, but also a large number of quotes from game reports to back up those more bold claims.

The more evidence you can find, the more it cements a position.

Gone are the days (I think) where we give large scale value to players based on 2 or 3 passing quotes from a game report. That's something I would say we've improved dramatically on since I started in 2014. When you look at some bio's and then old debates, it's pretty tough not to cringe on some of the statements thrown around (I was guilty as were most).

In the 30s-40s era they don't seem to describe a lot of the defensive play in the papers and that goes double for "scorers". There seems to be more for defensemen and checkers.

I spent quite a bit of time digging on Apps / Thompson / Hextall this year and it was rare to find anything about them other than scoring exploits in the game reports. What I found eventually were more general descriptions of their abilities which I think are better for the reasons you said. A few game reports of a guy pokechecking doesn't make him great defensively. It was still few and far between, though.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

hawkey wants Kevin lowe

@MadArcand is up

Thank you for announcing my pick. There were a few good defensive LD available, but none of the others had even close to the Championship pedigree that Lowe has. He will play next to Bill Quackenbush on my second pairing and Joe Simpson will be the driving force on the 3rd pairing.

 

[ImporterExporter]

In the 30s-40s era they don't seem to describe a lot of the defensive play in the papers and that goes double for "scorers". There seems to be more for defensemen and checkers.

I spent quite a bit of time digging on Apps / Thompson / Hextall this year and it was rare to find anything about them other than scoring exploits in the game reports. What I found eventually were more general descriptions of their abilities which I think are better for the reasons you said. A few game reports of a guy pokechecking doesn't make him great defensively. It was still few and far between, though.

Yeah, you see a big transition to a more AP style of writing in the 1930's and it only gets more condensed the further you move forward in time. That's one negative about the 06 era specifically. There just isn't the same depth of reporting that you saw pre consolidation so you're less likely to find specific mentions of defensive work or really anything that doesn't involve scoring plays.

Fast forward to the current time and we're living in a fantasy sports/betting world where offensive value is almost always held in higher regard because it's simply easier to quantify, even if that isn't a true representation of the actual value of (insert players name).

 

[Professor What]

Rules question: If @tabness were to miss his clock and I posted @tinyzombies pick, do I immediately make my pick after that, or does it start the skipped clock over? Even if it doesn't happen here, I probably need to know that for future reference.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Rules question: If @tabness were to miss his clock and I posted @tinyzombies pick, do I immediately make my pick after that, or does it start the skipped clock over? Even if it doesn't happen here, I probably need to know that for future reference.

Yes you're able to pick

 

[ImporterExporter]

Once a person has been skipped, they are auto skipped until they make up any missed selections.

 

[Professor What]

Once a person has been skipped, they are auto skipped until they make up any missed selections.

So, if it happened in this case and we went on a big run, Claude at 355 would hand off to Dirt at 357 then, right? Sorry if it's a dumb question. I just have to cement some things in my mind before they'll process correctly.

 

[Habsfan18]

So, if it happened in this case and we went on a big run, Claude at 355 would hand off to Dirt at 357 then, right? Sorry if it's a dumb question. I just have to cement some things in my mind before they'll process correctly.

Correct. And not a dumb question at all.

 

[ImporterExporter]

So, if it happened in this case and we went on a big run, Claude at 355 would hand off to Dirt at 357 then, right? Sorry if it's a dumb question. I just have to cement some things in my mind before they'll process correctly.

Yes sir.

Basically until a person makes up their original (and any subsequent) missed pick, they are auto skipped the rest of the way.

 

[VanIslander]

Persona non grata

 

[Habsfan18]

Professor What seems ready with zombies and his own pick. Then IE and Nabby each have back to backs. Then Leaf Lander is up before me, and I’ll be around. So we could go on a nice little run this afternoon potentially.

 

[Professor What]

I planned to hold off on drafting a goalie even more, but Dreakmur taking Lundqvist as a backup forced my hand.

Whalers select Jiří Holeček, G

Just for the record, I hate you, but I mean that in the nicest possible way. I had a feeling this was going to happen when @Dreakmur picked Lundqvist though, so maybe I should hate him nicely instead.

 

[Professor What]

Oh, and @tinyzombies told me he'd be around to make his pick, but yeah, hopefully we can get on a nice run here.

 

[tinyzombies]

This makes 7 "Selkes" on my checking line with Carbo.

Frank Finnigan - RW

Stanley Cup Champion (1927, 1932)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1935, 1936)
Selke Trophy (1930*, 1933*, 1934*, 1936*)
Played in NHL All Star Game (1934)
Team Captain (1930-1931; 1932-1933)
#8 retired by the Ottawa Senators (1992)

Top-10 Scoring (9th, 10th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (6th, 6th)

Top-10 Playoff Scoring (5th, 8th, 8th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (3rd, 9th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty minutes (7th, 10th)

- Named the best defensive forward of the 1930's by Ultimate Hockey
- Named the best penalty-killer of the 1930's by Ultimate Hockey
- Brother of Ed Finnigan and father of Joan Finnigan, a published writer
- As he had to take the train from Shawville to Ottawa, Frank picked up the nickname of "Shawville Express"
- He received his first fee for playing hockey when he was 13, playing for Quyon against Fitzroy Harbour, for which he received $10
- Finnigan signed as a free agent by Ottawa Senators on February 21st, 1924
- On September 26th, 1931, he was claimed by the Toronto Maple Leafs from the Ottawa Senators for the 1931-32 season in thedispersal draft
- On march 15th, 1934, Finnigan scored the final Senators goal in the final season that the NHL Senators played in Ottawa. He scored an unassisted goal at the 1 minute, 7 second mark of the second period
- Transferred to the St-Louis Eagles after Ottawa Senators franchise relocated on September 30, 1934
- He was Traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs by the St-Louis Eagles for cash on February 13th, 1935
- Finnigan recorded the most game played in the Ottawa Senators franchise history with 363
- During World War II, Finnigan joined the Canadian Air Force
- When a movement began to bring back the Senators in the early 1990's, Finnigan was recruited as a living link to the team's illustrious past. Finnigan was scheduled to drop the first puck for the new Ottawa Senators expansion franchise, but died in 1991 from a heart attack on Christmas day
- He was the last surviving member of the 1927 Stanley Cup champion Senators and was also the oldest living NHL player
- The street in front of the main entrance to the Ottawa Senators' arena, the Scotiabank Place, is named the ''Frank Finnigan Way'' in his honour. There is also a restaurant inside Scotiabank Place named ''Frank Finnigan's''

Joe Pelletier said:

Frank Finnigan was born in Shawville, Quebec, only 75 km outside the city of Ottawa. It was in Ottawa that Finnigan established himself as a legend of hockey.

Frank never got a chance to really play until the 1926-27 season. He responded well, scoring 15 goals in 36 games, and adding 3 more in 6 playoff contests en route to winning the Stanley Cup against Boston. "The Shawville Express" even managed to score the game winning goal in the first game of the finals!

When forward passing was finally allowed in all three zones in 1929, Frank had his best statistical year ever, posting 21 goals and 15 assists in 43 games.

Finnigan, an eight-year veteran who played a reliable two-way game, gave the Leafs a solid second line winger and an expert penalty killer. After playing a key role in the Leafs' 1932 Stanley Cup victory, Frank was returned to Ottawa.

Although he was small he was nearly impossible to knock off of his feet. He was strong as an ox, having worked as a telephone lineman in Ottawa prior to turning pro with the Sens. Finnigan was an extraordinary defensive forward.
---------------
Then there was Frank Finnigan, the "Shawville Express," who had his number 8 retired the new Senators when they returned to the league in 1992. He was a flawless defensive forward.
Click to expand...​

1936-1939 Diamond Match Cover said:

Trail of the Stanley Cup said:

He became a regular in 1928, with Kilrea and Nighbor, and led the team in goals and points for two years. He was the policeman of the line and took a lot of penalties.​

Globe and Mail; June 1st said:

Seven of those 12 players — Connell, Clancy, Hooley Smith, Denneny, Nighbor, Boucher and Adams — are in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Many believe Fearless Frank Finnigan should also be there. As a fitting tribute, his sweater was retired by the current Senators not long after his death in 1991.​

1933-34 O-Pee-Chee V304A #25 Frank Finnigan said:

Click to expand...​

-'' I'd label him as one of the finest right wingers in hockey. He could dish out the punishment and take it, too, as he flew down his wing. He was another straightaway skater. You could put a string out there and Finnigan would skate right up and down that line.'' - King Clancy

-'' I'd give anything to have a team of Finnys.'' - Dick Irvin Sr.

Sites:
SIHR | Society for International Hockey Research
Legends of Hockey -- NHL Player Search -- Player -- Frank Finnigan
Frank Finnigan - Wikipedia
Ottawa Hockey Legends: Frank Finnigan
Authentic Game-worn Frank Finnigan Sweater
http://www.geegeehockey.com/m_history1910s1920s.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article763191.ece

 

[Professor What]

Well, I got scooped on Holecek, but I'm still going to make sure Tony-O doesn't have to carry a big load, and I think this guy can split time with him very effectively. The Gallifrey TARDIS welcomes Tiny Thompson!

 

[ResilientBeast]

This makes 7 "Selkes" on my checking line with Carbo.

Frank Finnigan - RW

Stanley Cup Champion (1927, 1932)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1935, 1936)
Selke Trophy (1930*, 1933*, 1934*, 1936*)
Played in NHL All Star Game (1934)
Team Captain (1930-1931; 1932-1933)
#8 retired by the Ottawa Senators (1992)

Top-10 Scoring (9th, 10th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (6th, 6th)

Top-10 Playoff Scoring (5th, 8th, 8th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (3rd, 9th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty minutes (7th, 10th)

- Named the best defensive forward of the 1930's by Ultimate Hockey
- Named the best penalty-killer of the 1930's by Ultimate Hockey
- Brother of Ed Finnigan and father of Joan Finnigan, a published writer
- As he had to take the train from Shawville to Ottawa, Frank picked up the nickname of "Shawville Express"
- He received his first fee for playing hockey when he was 13, playing for Quyon against Fitzroy Harbour, for which he received $10
- Finnigan signed as a free agent by Ottawa Senators on February 21st, 1924
- On September 26th, 1931, he was claimed by the Toronto Maple Leafs from the Ottawa Senators for the 1931-32 season in thedispersal draft
- On march 15th, 1934, Finnigan scored the final Senators goal in the final season that the NHL Senators played in Ottawa. He scored an unassisted goal at the 1 minute, 7 second mark of the second period
- Transferred to the St-Louis Eagles after Ottawa Senators franchise relocated on September 30, 1934
- He was Traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs by the St-Louis Eagles for cash on February 13th, 1935
- Finnigan recorded the most game played in the Ottawa Senators franchise history with 363
- During World War II, Finnigan joined the Canadian Air Force
- When a movement began to bring back the Senators in the early 1990's, Finnigan was recruited as a living link to the team's illustrious past. Finnigan was scheduled to drop the first puck for the new Ottawa Senators expansion franchise, but died in 1991 from a heart attack on Christmas day
- He was the last surviving member of the 1927 Stanley Cup champion Senators and was also the oldest living NHL player
- The street in front of the main entrance to the Ottawa Senators' arena, the Scotiabank Place, is named the ''Frank Finnigan Way'' in his honour. There is also a restaurant inside Scotiabank Place named ''Frank Finnigan's''

Joe Pelletier said:

Frank Finnigan was born in Shawville, Quebec, only 75 km outside the city of Ottawa. It was in Ottawa that Finnigan established himself as a legend of hockey.

Frank never got a chance to really play until the 1926-27 season. He responded well, scoring 15 goals in 36 games, and adding 3 more in 6 playoff contests en route to winning the Stanley Cup against Boston. "The Shawville Express" even managed to score the game winning goal in the first game of the finals!

When forward passing was finally allowed in all three zones in 1929, Frank had his best statistical year ever, posting 21 goals and 15 assists in 43 games.

Finnigan, an eight-year veteran who played a reliable two-way game, gave the Leafs a solid second line winger and an expert penalty killer. After playing a key role in the Leafs' 1932 Stanley Cup victory, Frank was returned to Ottawa.

Although he was small he was nearly impossible to knock off of his feet. He was strong as an ox, having worked as a telephone lineman in Ottawa prior to turning pro with the Sens. Finnigan was an extraordinary defensive forward.
---------------
Then there was Frank Finnigan, the "Shawville Express," who had his number 8 retired the new Senators when they returned to the league in 1992. He was a flawless defensive forward.
Click to expand...​

1936-1939 Diamond Match Cover said:

Trail of the Stanley Cup said:

He became a regular in 1928, with Kilrea and Nighbor, and led the team in goals and points for two years. He was the policeman of the line and took a lot of penalties.​

Globe and Mail; June 1st said:

Seven of those 12 players — Connell, Clancy, Hooley Smith, Denneny, Nighbor, Boucher and Adams — are in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Many believe Fearless Frank Finnigan should also be there. As a fitting tribute, his sweater was retired by the current Senators not long after his death in 1991.​

1933-34 O-Pee-Chee V304A #25 Frank Finnigan said:

Click to expand...​

-'' I'd label him as one of the finest right wingers in hockey. He could dish out the punishment and take it, too, as he flew down his wing. He was another straightaway skater. You could put a string out there and Finnigan would skate right up and down that line.'' - King Clancy

-'' I'd give anything to have a team of Finnys.'' - Dick Irvin Sr.

Sites:
SIHR | Society for International Hockey Research
Legends of Hockey -- NHL Player Search -- Player -- Frank Finnigan
Frank Finnigan - Wikipedia
Ottawa Hockey Legends: Frank Finnigan
Authentic Game-worn Frank Finnigan Sweater
http://www.geegeehockey.com/m_history1910s1920s.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article763191.ece

No you don't

Those Ultimate Hockey awards mean absolutely nothing

 

[Johnny Engine]

Let's just say those quote marks are doing a lot of work, haha

 

[tinyzombies]

No you don't

Those Ultimate Hockey awards mean absolutely nothing

Can someone edit that profile then? Or can I pick again... sheesh.

 

[VanIslander]

Finnigan is clearly "responsible" defensively.

But Carbonneau is in the Hall for jaw-dropping defensive play.

 

[Habsfan18]

Can someone edit that profile then? Or can I pick again... sheesh.

It was a perfectly fine pick and he’s a great fit on a shutdown line with Carbo. But I don’t think anyone really considers Finnigan a 4x retro-Selke winner.

Still a great pick.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Can someone edit that profile then? Or can I pick again... sheesh.

I just don't want anyone to be misled by your post.

The "retro" awards occasionally in bios (excluding the Retro Conn Smythes by the HHOF/SIHR) are poorly researched (if really at all) and hold no actual weight.

They're full of numerous inaccuracies which call into doubt the legitimacy of the entire list

 

[VanIslander]

Even the SIHR list...

Not giving Earl Seibert the retro Conn Smythe when his Blackhawks coach identified him as the reason they won the cup, he playing 55 minutes a game, more than double anyone friggin else?! THE SIHR gave it to a sugary-stat scoring losing Leaf. Well f*** that.

 

[tinyzombies]

I just don't want anyone to be misled by your post.

The "retro" awards occasionally in bios (excluding the Retro Conn Smythes by the HHOF/SIHR) are poorly researched (if really at all) and hold no actual weight.

They're full of numerous inaccuracies which call into doubt the legitimacy of the entire list

I know overpass is doing a Dvsx, so I guess that work will be done at a later date. If I knew he was just a chump I would not have picked him tho. Live and learn.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Pittsburgh will happily select one of the best utility men of the mid 30's through mid 40's, though his most prominent position was on D (found a really cool interview with him regarding his playing multiple positions and how the only spot he didn't like playing was RW, as he's a lefty).

He's in a perfect position to succeed on a squad that can greatly shelter him to increased PP usage (ringer) and offensive only draws though I've already found a few instances of praise for defensive play in preliminary searches. His offensive abilities allows Seibert to spend more time on the ice at ES. He's yet another high end skater who fits a key theme for Pittsburgh, he was big for his era, and quite underrated in the physical department as he fought some real heavyweights like Nels Stewart and is noted to have laid out/hurt opposing players, though his PIM totals are quite low for the era/style of play. His playoff vsx and record is quite strong for a player at this portion of the draft and was a key secondary member on both of Boston's SC titles in 39/41.

Pittsburgh is thrilled to add:

William "Flash" Hollett D/F

Awards and Achievements:
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1939, 1941)

First Team All-Star (1945)
Second Team All-Star (1943)

Red Wings captain from 1943 to 1946

Scoring:
Goals 10th(1942)

Points among Defensemen 1st(1939), 1st(1940), 1st(1943), 1st(1945), 2nd(1935), 2nd(1941), 2nd(1942), 4th(1944), 9th(1937)

Play-off Points 3rd(1943), 4th(1941), 5th(1945)

Play-off Points among Defensemen 1st(1939), 1st(1941), 1st(1943), 1st(1945), 2nd(1940), 5th(1938), 5th(1946)

Hollett's prime lasted from 1939 to 1945. Here's where he ranks within that time frame:

1st in Points among Defesemen
1st in Goals among Defensemen
2nd in Assists among Defensemen

1st in Play-off Points among Defensemen
2nd in Play-off Goals among Defensemen
1st in Play-off Assists among Defensemen



Next pick coming shortly.....