ATD 2021 Draft Thread III

[tinyzombies]

You could do a proxy Bowman draft with all the opinions he's left behind.

 

[Dreakmur]

Actually I'd love to see an All-Time Draft done by insiders. I'd follow that religiously. But I'd lose interest if they neglected the early eras too much.

That would probably be terrible. The number of times I hear those guys call Martin Brodeur the best goalie if all time or Malkin a top-10 player is hilarious.

 

[Professor What]

That would probably be terrible. The number of times I hear those guys call Martin Brodeur the best goalie if all time or Malkin a top-10 player is hilarious.

But Brodeur singlehandedly won 691 games! What are you suggesting?

 

[BenchBrawl]

That would probably be terrible. The number of times I hear those guys call Martin Brodeur the best goalie if all time or Malkin a top-10 player is hilarious.

That's why I was wondering about the historical awareness of insiders. They have more knowledge about the on-ice subtleties, and that is very valuable. But everyone must do his basic homework in getting to know the players of the early eras, as respect for those who paved the way for future generations.

What would be fun, is to find the dozen of golden insiders who are both insiders and have a real interest in the history of the game. Not everyone is a monk who loves to read old journals and newspapers, but surely a few insiders are like that.

 

[VanIslander]

They'd say: Who is Nighbor? Fetisov sucks!

 

[tinyzombies]

But Brodeur singlehandedly won 691 games! What are you suggesting?

What if Brodeur played today and cleaned up his style? The goalie revolution happened overnight, he might as well have played in the 60s. But then Hasek delivered better results with a similar style and less help.

 

[Professor What]

What if Brodeur played today and cleaned up his style?

That wasn't a knock on Brodeur so much as the media who get so blinded by a team stat. I'd personally put Brodeur sixth all-time, so I definitely think he's a heck of a goalie, but the argument made for him being number one always seems to be the wins stat, as though the eighteen skaters on the ice had nothing to do with it and it was all the goalie.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yeah, I definitely hear what you're saying. I think it would be interesting to have 24-40 new GM's or "insiders" that haven't done this before do a draft and then compare it to the general draft rankings on this message board!

Yes, that'd be fun, assuming they include the early eras. Even better would be them coming here to shake the foundations of this section.

 

[tinyzombies]

That wasn't a knock on Brodeur so much as the media who get so blinded by a team stat. I'd personally put Brodeur sixth all-time, so I definitely think he's a heck of a goalie, but the argument made for him being number one always seems to be the wins stat, as though the eighteen skaters on the ice had nothing to do with it and it was all the goalie.

I do think he could be more adaptable to a profly style because of his size and athleticism so does he get a bump for that?

 

[VanIslander]

What if Brodeur played today and cleaned up his style? The goalie revolution happened overnight, he might as well have played in the 60s. But then Hasek delivered better results with a similar style...

A less true statement this board has never seen.

Unless there is a similarity (in style?) I am missing.

 

[tinyzombies]

A less true statement this board has never seen.

Unless there is a similarity (in style?) I am missing.

Meaning a flop type style.

 

[Professor What]

What if Brodeur played today and cleaned up his style? The goalie revolution happened overnight, he might as well have played in the 60s. But then Hasek delivered better results with a similar style and less help.

To reply to the added part, I take Hasek as the GOAT among goalies personally because of what he accomplished with what he had to work with, not to mention that he was so late getting his chance to become a regular NHL starter. And I'm not so sure that anyone has ever quite played the style Hasek did. I'm almost not even sure that it can be called a style. Whatever the heck it was though, it sure worked. He always seemed to know just where to put the toe of his skate blade while he was flopping around on the ice.

 

[BenchBrawl]

And speaking of Brodeur, there is no doubt in my mind that I would pick him over Dominik Hasek, if both were prospects. Brodeur was a foundational franchise goalie in a way that Hasek never was, for all his spectacular peak. The value of having a workhorse like Brodeur cannot be understated. Game in game out, Brodeur would be there providing Top-5-in-the-NHL level goaltending to your You have Brodeur you can sit back and relax, and stop asking yourself questions about goaltending. It's taken cared of.

 

[Professor What]

I do think he could be more adaptable to a profly style because of his size and athleticism so does he get a bump for that?

I'm always a bit wary of trying to answer questions like that because there's no way of knowing. If I could do some sort of statistical analysis to give a hint, it would be something I might take a stab at, but that's not something that I can quantify in any way. But, when we're talking about the only goalies I have ahead of him being Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk, Plante, and Hall, I think it's pretty clear that there's no insult in it.

 

[tinyzombies]

And speaking of Brodeur, there is no doubt in my mind that I would pick him over Dominik Hasek, if both were prospects. Brodeur was a foundational franchise goalie in a way that Hasek never was, for all his spectacular peak. The value of having a workhorse like Brodeur cannot be understated. Game in game out, Brodeur would be there providing Top-5-in-the-NHL level goaltending to your squad.

If we are going purely by results It's Roy tho. If you are going by talent there are several goalies today who are almost as acrobatic but as a hybrid in a cleaner style with more size.

 

[tinyzombies]

I'm always a bit wary of trying to answer questions like that because there's no way of knowing. If I could do some sort of statistical analysis to give a hint, it would be something I might take a stab at, but that's not something that I can quantify in any way. But, when we're talking about the only goalies I have ahead of him being Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk, Plante, and Hall, I think it's pretty clear that there's no insult in it.

He's from Montreal, he would have been made to play a profly style no question. Actually thats the case anywhere now. So.e of these goalies added it later in their development.

 

[VanIslander]

Brodeur plays the angles, Hasek cuts one side, dares the shooter to the open side.

Brodeur uses his stick effectively. Hasek throws his stick away.

Brodeur has shot-blocking dmen, Hasek yells at his dmen to get the f out of the away!

Brodeur clears dump ins of the puck quickly. Hasek waits in net.

Brodeur squares up breakaway shooters and dares them to pick a corner. Hasek rushes out and tackles shooters or stays back and flops at the last second unpredictably.

I have NEVER seen two goalies whose styles were as different as Hasek's from Brodeur's.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If we are going purely by results It's Roy tho. If you are going by talent there are several goalies today who are almost as acrobatic but as a hybrid in a cleaner style with more size.

Roy is my #1 goalie, but Roy has 3 Conn Smythes, and could have won 4 without anyone batting an eye.

 

[Professor What]

And speaking of Brodeur, there is no doubt in my mind that I would pick him over Dominik Hasek, if both were prospects. Brodeur was a foundational franchise goalie in a way that Hasek never was, for all his spectacular peak. The value of having a workhorse like Brodeur cannot be understated. Game in game out, Brodeur would be there providing Top-5-in-the-NHL level goaltending to your squad. At G especially, reliability and stability are extremely valuable attributes in the long run.

If I were to ever entertain a wins-based argument for him, the bolded section is where it would lie. But I think even the workhorse aspect is better demonstrated a different way. I'd look at it like this: the vast majority of goalies who have workhorse status eventually seem to break down. Brodeur never did. He played 70+ regular season games year in and year out, often followed by deep playoff runs, and he kept going. There's not another reasonably recent goalie that can match that.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Brodeur is also by far the best stickhandling goalie ever. I don't know, he just seems like the perfect goalie you want at age 18, maybe even better than Roy, whose' explosive temper could lead to problems at some point within a 20 years timespan (I'm not blaming him for what happened in Montreal at all though. I f***ing love Roy).

 

[tinyzombies]

Brodeur plays the angles, Hasek cuts one side, dares the shooter to the open side.

Brodeur uses his stick effectively. Hasek throws his stick away.

Brodeur has shot-blocking dmen, Hasek yells at his dmen to get the f out of the away!

Brodeur clears dump ins of the puck quickly. Hasek waits in net.

Brodeur squares up breakaway shooters and dares them to pick a corner. Hasek rushes out and tackles shooters or stays back and flops at the last second unpredictably.

I have NEVER seen two goalies whose styles were as different as Hasek's from Brodeur's.

The angle thing might be overstated. They both flop was my point. There was probably a huge difference in glove positioning g as well.

Their approach to high danger shots was similar I think.

The Sabres didn't have as good a d so they directed shots to medium danger spots which is how most teams play now incidentally

 

[Professor What]

He's from Montreal, he would have been made to play a profly style no question. Actually thats the case anywhere now. So.e of these goalies added it later in their development.

I just mean that I'm not comfortable getting into whether I think a goalie could be as successful playing in a different style from what they actually played. In the days that goalies were given more freedom in style, I have to think that they chose what they did because it was natural. Now, of course there's every chance that an elite athlete could convert with no problem, but trying to nail that down is too far out into the realm of the theoretical for me.

 

[tinyzombies]

I just mean that I'm not comfortable getting into whether I think a goalie could be as successful playing in a different style from what they actually played. In the days that goalies were given more freedom in style, I have to think that they chose what they did because it was natural. Now, of course there's every chance that an elite athlete could convert with no problem, but trying to nail that down is too far out into the realm of the theoretical for me.

Not for me he's got all the attributes there's no guesswork. He's more adaptable than Roy or Hasek.

 

[VanIslander]

Brodeur was a foundational franchise goalie in a way that Hasek never was, ...

Hasek was. In Czechoslovakia.

Remember. He didn't defect from the Communist-controlled regime and play in the NHL until age 26.

He was a Czechoslovakian star goalie in the world juniors, six world championships, the Olympics and two Canada Cups BEFORE he played a single NHL game!!

 

[tinyzombies]

Hasek was. In Czechoslovakia.

Remember. He didn't defect from the Communist-controlled regime and play in the NHL until age 26.

He was a Czechoslovakian star goalie in the world juniors, six world championships, the Olympics and two Canada Cups BEFORE he played a single NHL game!!

Looking at both at age 18 it's Brodeur all day. You would have to be a genius otherwise. Today they measure complex physical attributes so if Hasek had a few more inches then yes.