tinyzombies
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I would think he'd be good on a third line in ATD, tho this is a small ATD. Million dollar talent, ten cent head.
ATD 2021 Draft Thread III
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VanIslander
20+ years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
We cut Crosby ALL THE SLACK for injuries year after year that affect his season totals (his top ten goals seasons are just two 1sts and two 7ths - history might judge: can he shoot?).
Shouldn't we do likewise for Mogilny who also missed 10-15 games a season?
Shouldn't we do likewise for Mogilny who also missed 10-15 games a season?
Seems like an anti-Russian bias. If this draft was being done by actual people involved in the game, Mogilny would easily be a top 150 pick.
tinyzombies
Registered User
I have no bias at all my first pick was Makarov and I also took Konstantinov, who I also think gets underrated. If injuries are the case fine. I'll have to read up. Seemed like a disinterested player most of his career tho. Had as much if not more talent than most. Not many at that talent level that got so little out of it.
I would hope the ridiculous nature of the game back then would be factored in for skill guys as well.
VanIslander
20+ years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Well, your team is in the same division as the team with Mogilny this draft, so there is an inherent bias.
Dreakmur
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Crosby is a top-10 player of all time even with the injuries. No need to give any slack.
tinyzombies
Registered User
That's how I've always felt about the player. Also I said I thought he works on a third line.
Dreakmur
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BenchBrawl
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- Jul 26, 2010
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If you know them, try to bring them in, so we can get some insider perspective. That would be awesome. As it stands, what did Mogilny accomplish to deserve Top 150 consideration? He finished Top 10 in points only twice in his career. Even if you ignore the injuries and just focus on point-per-game, he was only Top 10 in PPG twice in his career too.
Wingers inside the Top 150 usually bring more meat than that, either via intangibles or better offensive numbers.
I have no doubt that Alex Mogilny is a more skilled hockey player than Patrik Elias, but Elias brought more flexibility in the kind of roles he could play, was better defensively and produced more in the playoffs. I see the point if both are 18 years old, you might pick Mogilny, but in this ATD game we can only judge on what they did, else Lindros would be picked in the Top 30 (which fair enough, we may change the unwritten rules of the game to focus on skill level instead of accomplishments, but at least let's be clear about that, then we too would pick Mogilny much earlier).
tinyzombies
Registered User
Talent alone isn't enough. Would be interesting to see a top 10 list of talent that could have been great. Mogilny would be on it for sure. Lindros could be first overall, tho he did deliver some elite finishes.
If I was in a draft with people involved in the game and not the same 24 randoms that do this draft every year, I would definitely have taken him!
If I or anyone else would have taken him earlier, we would have got chirped that its a bad pick blah blah blah. But I guess that's one of the problems with doing these kinds of drafts.
VanIslander
20+ years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
C'mon. Low blow. Sophistry!
He drafted RW Brett Hull 84th overall.
He drafted just ONE RWer since, Mosienko.
The apt criticism of his picks would be: Is Bill Mosienko a better pick than Alex Mogilny?
Absolutely. Now that would be fair criticism.
I had a bias for picking Mosienko because I'm writing a book about him!
tinyzombies
Registered User
Brett had 5 ridiculous seasons bad comparison. And another 5 excellent finishes.
I need to write a book, everyone else is doing it!
BenchBrawl
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It's easy to call us randoms and outsiders, but we are the one who through 10 years build this thing and researched old newspapers to get some semblance of historical hierarchy going on. We might not be perfect, but then why didn't insiders join this community in the early 2010s when it was blowing up? Their help and knowledge would have been welcomed. It's clearly one of the cool places online to discuss about hockey history, else why would you be there yourself? This draft is open to all, including Scotty Bowman himself. I'd be thrilled if an insider could come here and explain his reasoning, about why such is such and so on.
How many insiders even know who Frank Nighbor is though? How much historical awareness does the average insider actually has? To know where Mogilny should be picked requires to know the RWers of every decade throughout history, at least a little bit. If they think Mogilny is better than Bill Cook or Bryan Hextall Sr., I'm open to hear the argument.
Professor What
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I don't see any way that Mogilny is a top-150 all-time player. As I said, I see three excellent seasons and then some pretty good ones after that. Now that's coming from someone with a fascination for Russia and who would have a tendency to look favorably at a lot of things associated with the country simply because they're Russian. No anti-Russian bias here, and I'm still simply saying it ain't so. If we look at this in an all-time depth chart manner, I could see Mogilny possibly being a second line player, though I'm not about to do all the work to make that depth chart. If you figure then that the best second line forward at any position is 25th at that position and we dumb things down to make them simple and say that we're dealing with one-sixth of players, you get 150. So, we'd have to be talking absolutely tip-top second line to get 150. I just simply don't see that. But, again, that doesn't mean that he's a bad pick. Again, I can see the potential for second line, and he's going to be a third-liner in this case, if I'm not mistaken. Granted, I'm a rookie at this, and there might be plenty I'm missing, but, while I can see some potential value in this pick, suggesting top-150 is seriously exaggerated.
BenchBrawl
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- Jul 26, 2010
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Actually I'd love to see an All-Time Draft done by insiders. I'd follow that religiously. But I'd lose interest if they neglected the early eras too much.
tinyzombies
Registered User
Just read Drydens new book.
Nabbys Brimsek book is excellent and thoroughly researched as well
Professor What
Registered User
Not only the early years, but the Europeans as well. I wouldn't be interested if it was something that the NHL sponsored, because the league too often seems to think that nothing that happened outside of its auspices matters for anything. Keep it independent of the league and complete, however, and I'd be all over it.
VanIslander
20+ years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Professor What
Registered User
Dryden is someone I'd love to see do something like this. He'd dig so deeply into every nook and cranny. Actually, for that matter, I'd like to see someone like Stephen Harper do it.
tinyzombies
Registered User
They would need the patience to do a player ranking in the concept of team building. Bowman might be into it as he wouldn't need to research much from the 40s on.
tinyzombies
Registered User
Ya but McGuire could probably memorize all the research on this board overnight and then find out what peewee team Aurel Joliat played for.
Yeah, I definitely hear what you're saying. I think it would be interesting to have 24-40 new GM's or "insiders" that haven't done this before do a draft and then compare it to the general draft rankings on this message board!
Dreakmur
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Pick who you think is good and then bring some evidence to support your opinion.
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