ATD 2021 Draft Thread III

[ChiTownPhilly]

FYI- I'm on-the-clock... but the slot is subject to a proposed trade with IE.

I believe it needs one more approval before IE can go ahead & pick.

Follow-up FYI:

To ImporterExporter: 279-298-346
To ChiTownPhilly: 288-289-336.

Approved by Dirt 101, overpass, and TheDevilMadeMe.

So the floor belongs to @ImporterExporter

 

[ImporterExporter]

Well, Pittsburgh is going to cash in a trade chip to select, what we think, is ridiculously good value.

In the past 5 drafts this player has been selected:

2020 - 187
2019 - 152
2018 (24 team, trading draft) - 162
2017 = 174
2016 = 165

Stastny went 141st this year
Perreault went 182nd
Savard went 257th

He's got a 7 year VsX of 86.0 (10 year of 81.7)

His ES VsX of 58 places him right next to Modano, Francis, Clarke, to name a few.

He carried teams in Winnipeg that didn't have remotely close the talent that division rivals had. Was a great skater with tremendous lateral agility. Good goal scorer, but even better playmaker, with top shelf vision. Gritty, not one to be pushed around or back away from tough assignments. Over the course of his career he developed a good 2 way game, and was used in the 87 Canada Cup in a purely checking role, where he shined against the Soviets so he can certainly be counted on as a responsible player in that regard. Good leader.

13 straight seasons of 80+ points is matched only by Gretzky his AS and scoring records would have been held in higher regard than they were had 99 and 66 not been destroying the league through the 80's.

He should slot in perfectly beside Mr Glenn Anderson.

Pittsburgh is excited to add:

Dale Hawerchuk, C

 

[BenchBrawl]

Well, Pittsburgh is going to cash in a trade chip to select, what we think, is ridiculously good value.

In the past 5 drafts this player has been selected:

2020 - 187
2019 - 152
2018 (24 team, trading draft) - 162
2017 = 174
2016 = 165

Stastny went 141st this year
Perreault went 182nd
Savard went 257th

He's got a 7 year VsX of 86.0 (10 year of 81.7)

His ES VsX of 58 places him right next to Modano, Francis, Clarke, to name a few.

He carried teams in Winnipeg that didn't have remotely close the talent that division rivals had. Was a great skater with tremendous lateral agility. Good goal scorer, but even better playmaker, with top shelf vision. Gritty, not one to be pushed around or back away from tough assignments. Over the course of his career he developed a good 2 way game, and was used in the 87 Canada Cup in a purely checking role, where he shined against the Soviets so he can certainly be counted on as a responsible player in that regard. Good leader.

13 straight seasons of 80+ points is matched only by Gretzky his AS and scoring records would have been held in higher regard than they were had 99 and 66 not been destroying the league through the 80's.

He should slot in perfectly beside Mr Glenn Anderson.

Pittsburgh is excited to add:

Dale Hawerchuk, C

He was on my short list. Decided I wanted more muscle and trusted Roenick's all-around game more than Hawerchuk's. Still a great pick at this point.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dale Hawerchuk, C

Don't care where he has been drafted in the past. He could have been a bad pick for years.

This is good really value. Low maintenance, so he would accept a 3rd line role, though I think you'd have to already have PKers to make this work to full effectiveness.

 

[Professor What]

I'm going to jump on the coaching carousel and choose a man who coached winners before, during, and after the war, some of which were better offensively and some of which were better defensively, and who won Cups with two franchises: Dick Irvin!

View media item 8400

 

[tony d]

Hawerchuk's the other guy I contemplated picking when I went with Barber. Great pick at this point.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Don't care where he has been drafted in the past. He could have been a bad pick for years.

This is good really value. Low maintenance, so he would accept a 3rd line role, though I think you'd have to already have PKers to make this work to full effectiveness.

Well, I would certainly argue that given how deep C is, him getting picked in the mid to late 100's is probably a bit much given the ole "meta-value" charts. That's why I also showed where other similarly ranked players had been drafted this year.

Also agree with your other points. Thankfully there is still a way's to go and many great PK'ers still available.

He was on my short list. Decided I wanted more muscle and trusted Roenick's all-around game more than Hawerchuk's. Still a great pick at this point.

Thanks BB.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Pittsburgh is excited to add:

Dale Hawerchuk, C

Nice work- and pretty-much anticipated.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Well, Pittsburgh is going to cash in a trade chip to select, what we think, is ridiculously good value.

Dale Hawerchuk, C

Another guy who was significantly slowed down too soon by injuries (especially his hip). Was really sad to hear of his passing this year.

I mentioned on here before that I saw him at an old timers thing years ago and he was still a puck magnet while stickhandling.

 

[Dreakmur]

Well, I would certainly argue that given how deep C is, him getting picked in the mid to late 100's is probably a bit much given the ole "meta-value" charts. That's why I also showed where other similarly ranked players had been drafted this year.

Also agree with your other points. Thankfully there is still a way's to go and many great PK'ers still available.

It's not that you can't find any PKers, it's that you need room on the roster.

I think you need two centres that can PK, or at the very least a winger with proven face-off ability. I was looking at Hawerchuk, and I might have taken him actually, but it would have really hurt my PK.

 

[tabness]

I didn't play Hawerchuk at wing last year, and I wish I had done so. Amazing value (I'd say a better player than Roenick but Roenick makes more sense as usual third line center with his hitting)

This kind of pick is why you drafting so many defenseman early was so nice to see lol

 

[tinyzombies]

Forsberg's buddy and now linemate:

Markus Naslund

Awards and Achievements:
Lester B. Pearson Award (2003)
3 x First Team All-Star (2002, 2003, 2004)​

Hart voting 2nd(2003), 5th(2002), 5th(2004), 11th(2001)
All-Star voting 1st(2002), 1st(2003), 1st(2004), 3rd(2001)


Scoring Accomplishments:
Points 2nd(2002), 2nd(2003), 4th(2004)
Goals 2nd(2003), 5th(2002), 7th(2001), 7th(2004), 15th(1999)
Assists 4th(2002), 8th(2003), 9th(2004)


Scoring Percentages:
Point 100(2002), 100(2003), 97(2004), 78(2001), 75(2006), 69(2000), 62(1999), 53(2007), 52(2008), 46(1996), 42(2009), 38(1997), 37(1998)

Best 6 Seasons: 519
Nest 6 Seasons: 293


5-Year Peak: 2001-2006
3rd in Points, 99% of 2nd place Joe Thornton
2nd in Goals, 96% of 1st place Jaromir Jagr
8th in Assists, 87% of 2nd place Jaromir Jagr

10-Year Peak: 1999-2009
6th in Points, 87% of 2nd place Joe Thornton
4th in Goals, 96% of 2nd place Jaromir Jagr
17th in Assists, 76% of 2nd place Jaromir Jagr


Team Scoring:
Points 1st(1999), 1st(2000), 1st(2001), 1st(2002), 1st(2003), 1st(2004), 1st(2006), 3rd(2007), 3rd(2008)
Goals 1st(1999), 1st(2000), 1st(2001), 1st(2002), 1st(2003), 1st(2004), 1st(2009), 2nd(2006), 2nd(2007), 2nd(2008)

Crawford said:

He's probably on television as much as the prime minister. And he's probably... definitely more popular!
​

LoH said:

Before he was injured late in the 2000-01 season, right-winger Markus Naslund emerged as one of the NHL's elite players as well as the on-ice leader of the improved Vancouver Canucks. After entering the league in 1993-94, he showed glimpses of his potential and eventually became an above-average scorer before taking his game to the next level.​

 

[BenchBrawl]

Though I will say, since I was on the spot having to choose between Roenick and Hawerchuk, and feel like I have to defend Roenick a little bit, that I don't buy Hawerchuk's two-way game so easily. He gets a lot of mileage out of CC87, but in the NHL he struggled to outscore the opposition at ES even at home, between 81-82 and 93-94.

In that timeframe, among the Top 50 scorers (at home), he is one of only TWO players with negative +/-'s. I get he had a bad team but that's not a good look on his defensive responsability.

NHL Stats

Offensively, he was amazing though. But now we have to figure out the cost of this offense.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Though I will say, since I was on the spot having to choose between Roenick and Hawerchuk, and feel like I have to defend Roenick a little bit, that I don't buy Hawerchuk's two-way game so easily. He gets a lot of mileage out of CC87, but in the NHL he struggled to outscore the opposition at ES even at home, between 81-82 and 93-94.

In that timeframe, among the Top 50 scorers, he is one of only TWO players with negative +/-'s. I get he had a bad team but that's not a good look on his defensive responsability.

NHL Stats

Offensively, he was amazing though. But now we have to figure out the cost of this offense.

Reading the plethora of material on these forums by people that watched, most who were alive, and adults, said he was solid defensively. I can certainly provide example if people don't want to look. Team Canada wouldn't have put him in that specific position, against the Soviets, if they thought he couldn't do it. @Hockey Outsider mentioned his defensive arc following a Crosby one. Passable, average, above average. Unlike other star offensive players, he reads/sounds like a player who actually worked at his game as he aged. He was an amazing offensive talent but didn't hang his hat solely on it.

As others have said, injuries really ended his career prematurely. Even still, his 10 year VsX is 80+.

He played on some really blah teams as well. And again, you have to look at who he was playing against as well. He was in the same division as Gretzky.

Roenick was a fine pick. Absolutely worthy of going there.

In a vacuum though, I'd never take him over Hawerchuk.

The cost of his offense is a top 4 of Stevens-Orr, Lappy-Seibert. And I'd still say that as if his defense was on a Bill Cowley level, which it certainly is not.

 

[Voight]

Who can take a list from me? Logging off soon; won't be back around until 6am tomorrow.

 

[ImporterExporter]

@BenchBrawl

And btw, I totally understand Roenick being the pick based on fit. Hawerchuk fit my roster, and Anderson to a T. In the end though, I think we both got exactly what we needed for those positions.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Who can take a list from me? Logging off soon; won't be back around until 6am tomorrow.

I'll be up for a bit.

BB is usually up well past midnight EST as well.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Reading the plethora of material on these forums by people that watched, most who were alive, and adults, said he was solid defensively. I can certainly provide example if people don't want to look. Team Canada wouldn't have put him in that specific position, against the Soviets, if they thought he couldn't do it. @Hockey Outsider mentioned his defensive arc following a Crosby one. Passable, average, above average. Unlike other star offensive players, he reads/sounds like a player who actually worked at his game as he aged. He was an amazing offensive talent but didn't hang his hat solely on it.

As others have said, injuries really ended his career prematurely. Even still, his 10 year VsX is 80+.

He played on some really blah teams as well. And again, you have to look at who he was playing against as well. He was in the same division as Gretzky.

Roenick was a fine pick. Absolutely worthy of going there.

In a vacuum though, I'd never take him over Hawerchuk.

The cost of his offense is a top 4 of Stevens-Orr, Lappy-Seibert. And I'd still say that as if his defense was on a Bill Cowley level, which it certainly is not.

I have a vivid memory of C1958 shitting on Hawerchuk's defense, and he would certainly qualify your description. I'd have to see the other posts by other posters to balance it out.

I'm not shitting on the Hawerchuk pick, I almost picked him up myself. But responsible two-way center? Hmmm... the numbers are telling a different story. Maybe I'm just interpretating them wrong though.

Hawerchuk was a top offensive player competing for the Hart, yet he is bleeding GA at home more than virtually any star in the league within his prime. That requires more explanation than what he did in CC87 IMO, if we want to consider him a two-way center or even responsible.

I always saw Hawerchuk = Denis Savard. Non-factor defensively. If this is not true, it needs to be sold.

 

[Dreakmur]

I have a vivid memory of C1958 shitting on Hawerchuk's defense, and he would certainly qualify your description. I'd have to see the other posts by other posters to balance it out.

I'm not shitting on the Hawerchuk pick, I almost picked him up myself. But responsible two-way center? Hmmm... the numbers are telling a different story. Maybe I'm just interpretating them wrong though.

Hawerchuk was a top offensive player competing for the Hart, yet he is bleeding GA at home more than virtually any star in the league within his prime. That requires more explanation than what he did in CC87 IMO, if we want to consider him a two-way center or even responsible.

I always saw Hawerchuk = Denis Savard. Non-factor defensively. If this is not true, it needs to be sold.

If you're using plus minus to evaluate defence, you're doing it wrong. Having said that, using JUST minus is a much better indication, and he did have a lot of those

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hawerchuk was basically a "bad team scorer" in Winnipeg, playing in an era when such players basically all sacrificed D to score.

I think that under the right coaching environment, he showed he could play more responsibly.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If you're using plus minus to evaluate defence, you're doing it wrong. Having said that, using JUST minus is a much better indication, and he did have a lot of those

It was just a quick illustration that something is off. I know +/- are really limited.

Also it's implicit in Hawerchuk's great offense that if he had bad +/-, that means he was bleeding GAs.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Hawerchuk was basically a "bad team scorer" in Winnipeg, playing in an era when such players basically all sacrificed D to score.

I think that under the right coaching environment, he showed he could play more responsibly.

That is fair, but then what happens to his offense?

 

[BenchBrawl]

@BenchBrawl

And btw, I totally understand Roenick being the pick based on fit. Hawerchuk fit my roster, and Anderson to a T. In the end though, I think we both got exactly what we needed for those positions.

I agree, IE. Sorry for going on the attack on your player here, but it was inevitable, since I had just pondered whether I should take Hawerchuk, and decided no based on that. I was waiting for him to get picked to have this discussion basically. Just how much defense can Hawerchuk provide (and in the same vein, Stastny).

I think Hawerchuk is a great pick up for you, as you started your forward group late. He brings game-breaking talent where this is rare at this range in the draft.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Who can take a list from me? Logging off soon; won't be back around until 6am tomorrow.

I got Voight's list.

 

[BenchBrawl]

It would be interesting to split Hawerchuk's GAs and see if playing more against Edmonton in the 1980s had a significant impact on those.