ATD 2020 Draft Thread IV

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BenchBrawl

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I was answering VI; I wasn't looking through the roster thread. Bergeron is certainly a non-traditional 2nd liner in this, so of course you wouldn't have as defensive a third line playing behind him.

Fair enough, and true. I rank my lines according to the importance of players, not role. Bergeron is more important than Hlinka, so his line is the 2nd line.

Bowman is also in awe of the current Bergeron line in the NHL*, comparing them to Shutt-Lemaire-Lafleur, and he now ranks Crosby up there with the greatest players ever (and by that I mean Howe, Lemieux, Gretzky, Richard and so on). When asked who was the greatest player of all-time in a recent french interview, he named the usual suspects, then added Crosby. This is why I reached for Bowman, I had players he loved.

*That article dates back from April 2018, but I doubt he changed his mind considering what they have done since then.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Fredrickson is fine as a #1 center; weak sure, but he has the profile. He *feels* like a #1 center, a bit like Gilbert Perreault but to a lesser extent in the case of Fredrickson.
 

VanIslander

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I was lambasted for having Fredrickson as a 2nd line center before.

...

Given his era, cut the assists/points totals in half: does he stack up to Doug Weight at 457th overall?
 

BenchBrawl

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Fredrickson is underrated . His prime lasted 7 years IIRC, yet he has the reputation of being a short peak player.
 

RustyRazor

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Well, here we go....


John Bucyk's most productive seasons came with this man as his center on a 2nd line. They will reunite to play on the Penguins' second line, along with Rick Middleton at RW -- an upgrade on their linemate with the Bruins from 1967-1973.

The Portland Penguins select Fred Stanfield, Center.

340


2x Stanley Cup Champion
5x Top 10 Assists(4, 6, 7, 7)
3x Top 20 Points(9, 12, 15)
4th in Playoff goals, 1972
2x Top 6 Playoff Assists(2, 6)
2x Top 5 Playoff Points(4, 5)
3x Top 13 All Star Voting(6, 8, 13)*

*8th and 13th were with 1 voting point

Some quotes about Stanfield...

During his first season with the Bruins in 1967
What is amazing and remarkable is the Chief’s percentage. In 20 games he has 43 shots on goal. He has 13 goals. In the big league a shooting percentage of 20 percent is considered excellent. There is a reason -- Fred Stanfield.

He’s best known as the “throw-in” on the big deal with Chicago, the one that brought Phil Esposito and Ken Hodge and Stanfield to the team.

…. Bucyk says he has never played with as much savvy, which has to come naturally. Stanfield never got much of a chance to play in Chicago.

“When you cut, you know he’ll put the puck right there on your stick. If you can’t score working with a kid like this, you’ll never score.”

Even Milt has to be surprised. He never really expected to get so much -- a prolific playmaker, a scorer, a point on the power play, a penalty killer. Better yet, here’s a star without lip.

Late today the team leaves Logan for St. Louis. It has to be a happy group. It’s winning again. The straggler, a few steps astern, will be Fred Stanfield going quietly about his business and never giving a hint about his value. He doesn’t have to now. The figures are out. They tell plenty.

Fred Stanfield was moving around, hitting the head man with perfect passes and if there’s a man on this team who doesn’t have to work at that -- or much else for that matter -- it’s Stanfield.

During his first year (1967-68) Harry Sinden found the line that is still flying. During training camp he put John Bucyk on Fred’s left, [undrafted] on the right. It was a great matchup and Stanfield scored 20 goals and had 44 assists.

Last year he followed it up with 25 goals and 29 assists and who noticed? Espo and Hodge were steaming along like gangbusters.

Now it has become too obvious to ignore. Bucyk and Stanfield have 10 goals. [Undrafted] is only one back and other than Orr, Fred is the most noticeable man on the ice. “He’s skating better than I have ever seen him,” goal tender [undrafted] claimed. He’s moving that puck. He’s making the passes. He’s got confidence. He knows he can do it now.”

“He’s been super,” Sinden said. “He always could pass. He always could shoot. But now he’s forechecking. He’s backchecking. He’s skating. He’s doing everything.”

Prior to the 1970 Cup finals, Scotty Bowman said:
But the man who does the great job, the super job, and the man who gets lost in Esposito’s shadow, is Fred Stanfield.

That line of his goes great. It’s a wonderful line. And he’s the one who makes it go.

Coming into the 1971 season:
Also intact is the line of Fred Stanfield with Johnny Bucyk and [undrafted] which set a Stanley Cup record of 52 points for a line.

The Bruins coach on Stanfield:
He’s a real playmaker, a great skater and he’s wonderful on the point on the power play. He has that great low shot, usually right on net. If he doesn’t get the goal, the rebound is there. He always gives us a chance.”

Stanfield on himself:
I’d like to score 30 goals for myself. I got 24 last season but I was still 10th overall in league scoring with 76 points, which was my highest. Also my wingers had 82 goals, with 51 for Chief (Bucyk) and 31 for [undrafted]. And I guess my work as a center would be reflected in their scoring.

BillyShoe1721's bio of Stanfield
 

Sturminator

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Hey, since it looks like Pominville Knows isn't coming back, I'd like to re-name the team the Spokane Canaries. If the re-name causes to many problems, I can stay with MountainLake, however.

And since I can't update the roster, here that is so far:
Cy Denney-Wayne Gretzky-George Armstrong
Bob Pulford-Phil Watson-Aleksandr Maltsev
XXX-Ryan O'Reilly-Eric Nesterenko
XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX

Valeri Vasiliev-Harry Cameron
Mark Giordano-PK Subban
XXX-XXX
XXX

Hap Holmes
XXX
Bonus points for f***ing up the spelling of Cy Denneny's name, champ ;)

It's an ATD tradition.
 

VanIslander

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I've said for years that your bottom 6 should provide things that your top 6 lacks.
It is an absurd bizarro world where

1st Toews
2nd Keon
3rd Spezza

Have you ever played hockey? Do you understand how line shifts work? This is an EMBARRASSMENT. I cannot fathom how a team could do this.

I was an accredited reporter for an NHL training camp and some regular season games.

I have met Spezza and had to sit through multiple booing sessions in Windsor, Ontario (I was in grad school in town at the time).

Spezza never added backchecking to his game.
 
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BenchBrawl

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7 season vs.X score of 83.1

Nothing against you, but I give no value whatsoever to the numbers you bring up for pre-consolidation players, until you make a thread in public laying out your methodology for others to nitpick and discuss (if this was done my apologies, and can you please link it here?). This is what happened with VsX in 2013 and this is how it should be done. For numbers to mean anything people need to be able to discuss the methodology behind them.

That said, there is more than offense to hockey. Fredrickson was a top player for a 7 years stretch. He got on (splitted) ASTs even when his offense was inexplicably lower.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
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I'll pick Flash Hollett, D to QB the Swamp Devils' powerplay

Short version - finding out Hollett played about half the games as a forward from 1938-39 to 1940-41 shows why he got almost no recognition as an all-star defenseman over this period. He's not as good offensively as "1st in scoring among defensemen 4 times, 2nd in scoring among defensemen 3 times" would look.

But there's no longer reason to think he was significantly worse in his own end than other offense-first defensemen. Multiple quotes in his old profile - ATD 2014 - the Bios Thread - and elsewhere paint him as at least showing up in his own end. And we have a pretty good alternate explanation for his complete lack of defenseman all-star votes in the first half of his offensive prime.
That's quite interesting. Hollett looks like he should probably go more in the Harmon/Bergman/Kuzkin tier, rather than being taken after guys like Carlyle and Iafrate.

I remember the days when he used to be hugely overrated around the ATD, along with Babe Pratt, iirc. Guess it makes sense we took a long time to zero in on the value of wartime offensive defensemen.
 
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Dreakmur

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It is an absurd bizarro world where

1st Toews
2nd Keon
3rd Spezza

You think Jason Spezza should play more thana Toews or Keon?

Have you ever played hockey? Do you understand how line shifts work? This is an EMBARRASSMENT. I cannot fathom how a team could do this.

I played growing up, and I still play now. I've also been coaching since 1999.

I was an accredited reporter for an NHL training camp and some regular season games.

Cool.

I have met Spezza and had to sit through multiple booing sessions in Windsor; Ontario (I was in grad school in town at the time).

Spezza never added backchecking to his game.

He won't be asked to play in defensive situations. That's what Keon and Toews are here for.
 

tabness

be a playa 🇵🇸
Apr 4, 2014
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Sorry for being late again

Radz take Jacques Demers

Not the best tactical coach maybe, but a great motivator who can get guys to put aside their egos to play as a team and get the best out of players. Prefers a tight checking style with a few guys with explosive offensive skill which the Radz personnel as a whole have sort of become (a better version of the late eighties Red Wings before their freefall).
 
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BenchBrawl

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Sorry, this coronavirus thing has hit hard in Seattle (another reason I hate this city wish I was back in Detroit lol)

Radz take Jacques Demers

Not the best tactical coach maybe, but a great motivator who can get guys to put aside their egos to play as a team and get the best out of players. Prefers a tight checking style with a few guys with explosive offensive skill which the Radz personnel as a whole have sort of become (a better version of the late eighties Red Wings before their freefall).

Stay safe, and good choice. Always loved Demers immensely as a human being.
 
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Dreakmur

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Nothing against you, but I give no value whatsoever to the numbers you bring up for pre-consolidation players, until you make a thread in public laying out your methodology for others to nitpick and discuss (if this was done my apologies, and can you please link it here?). This is what happened with VsX in 2013 and this is how it should be done. For numbers to mean anything people need to be able to discuss the methodology behind them.

Been done before.
 

BenchBrawl

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Been done twice now in old draft threads.

There should be an official thread for this, like the main VsX thread started by Sturminator in 2013.

It's not just about me wanting to check it out, but so everyone can rip it open to obtain the best methodological result. It shouldn't even be done in this section but on HoH, if not By The Numbers.
 

Sturminator

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I think that with Hlinka's size and leadership, he'd be a decent 4th liner. Agree about the rest of them. Well, Bowie is a top 6 center in what used to be the normal sized 30-32 team draft, but I agree that in the recent 20-25 team drafts, he generally wasn't.
Hlinka has already centered the 3rd line of an ATD champion in a smaller draft than this (26 teams in 2016). I don't recall any great complaints about him in that role, though I think Rob was also swapping Don Marshall in as 3rd line center at times when he wanted to give a more defensive look. It was an innovative team, as Rob's tended to be.
 
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