ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV

[Sturminator]

Perhaps, but Harmon has been better in a vacuum than a lot of the defensemen selected before him.

For sure. Harmon and Kuzkin are in the convo for best defensemen taken since probably Bergman/Harris, at the latest.

 

[Leaf Lander]

And he even knows how to use a toaster! I think..

If that's your prerequisite I gues im done..

Some arguments are worth it some are no

I'm sure while Phil is playing his Video games the rest of his team will tell him what to do. Hope he is paying attention as alot more is at stake in the atd

His attitude is not profesional and that should only be magnified in the atd world.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

For sure. Harmon and Kuzkin are in the convo for best defensemen taken since probably Bergman/Harris, at the latest.

Funny you say that, Harmon and Sologubov were my second/third choices if I didn't get Bergman! I had Harmon last year so I was already familiar with his resume. I didn't take him with my next pick after Bergman because I wanted a defensive RHS for my second PK unit.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'll take Carey Price, G.Price has been exemplary when asked to be a back-up or when confronted by an intern competition, and has ultimately risen to the challenge everytime.He's also proven to be able to handle the insane pressure that comes with being a goalie in Montreal.

 

[jarek]

Funny you say that, Harmon and Sologubov were my second/third choices if I didn't get Bergman! I had Harmon last year so I was already familiar with his resume. I didn't take him with my next pick after Bergman because I wanted a defensive RHS for my second PK unit.

Those who managed to fill their special teams defensemen up to their #5 got rewarded this year with some excellent value on D who are not really any worse than those taken 50-100 picks earlier. That Harmon is a spare here is ludicrous. He absolutely deserves to be a starter.

 

[MadArcand]

I don't get the hate Kessel gets. Sure, he's totally one-dimensional, but then so is a lot of players.

 

[Stoneberg]

West Lafayette selects Jack Adams, C/LW.

 

[895]

I can't wait to make my pick.

I don't think this person has ever been drafted but I think once I make the pick, most would agree he would go either 1st or 2nd overall.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

The Bankers select F Ernie Russell

 

[jarek]

the bankers select f ernie russell

c/rw.

 

[seventieslord]

I can see this line of thought, though I sort of think that a player's best season should be considered his best and the 7/10 year periods should be considered his prime. Now, I totally agree with rewarding players with extended primes. But I dislike rewarding lesser players based solely on the fact that they played more games. That's how people end up overrating Andreychuk and Gartner.

But also, they do kinda deserve it, don’t they? They didn’t just play forever, they had extended primes.

This sounds an awful lot like you are looking for a "magic mark" to make a player worthy of being in the ATD. Why should a player have to work their way up the ladder? I think Marchand is comparable to 4th liners right now, and I don't think I am alone. And in assassinations/a bio/the playoffs, I will certainly compare him to other 4th line LWers.

I know you like the MLD and lower drafts, but there is no logical reason why a player should have to hit each level before the ATD. Real life players go from Juniors/NCAA to the NHL, skipping the AHL; I dont see this as any different.

It’s actually completely different, as that’s real life and this isn’t.

I’m not saying that players should rise through the ranks because we need to simulate real life player development, any more than you should be saying that Marchand can be an exception because some players have different career paths in real life. I’m saying that unless we’re talking about an extreme outlier of a player whose all-time value astronomically skyrockets in one season, there’s no reason a player should rise in the draft rankings so quickly to the extent that they skip an entire draft. I could envision a really special player doing such a thing, but Marchand is not that level of player. He’d have a much greater chance of standing up to scrutiny when compared to the class of players typically drafted for MLD 4th lines, and if he looks good there then following another season of high end play, someone should feel emboldened to take him higher the next year.

They have very similar peaks, but what did Thomson do in those non-peak years that should vault him ahead of Doughty, who hasn't actually played those seasons yet?

It doesn’t sound like anyone is arguing for Thomson over Doughty except for Leaf Lander anyway, but… just being in the NHL during the original six era was an achievement. Every season a player plays in that era counts for something. If you’re a top-30 defenseman in the world, even after adjusting for talent pool size, that’s like being a #2 today. Brent Seabrook has made a whole ATD caliber career out of being a #2 year after year, and if he played in the O6 he’d be a guy who was “just there†season after season.

It sounds like you want there to be an all-encompassing player greatness metric that takes all factors into consideration. It’s never going to happen. Iain Fyffe’s player contribution numbers are nice, and they weigh peak, prime and career to a degree that looks pretty fair, but it looks like he stalled after the 1920s or so, and who knows when it will all get released. Still, it would never be “definitiveâ€, just a tool that would help to identify players that it’s clear we overrate or underrate – kinda like VsX did for a player like Gottselig, or for a player like Reggie Leach. Neither of them have risen as high or dropped as low as VsX by itself seems to indicate they should, but it’s certainly affected their rankings by causing people to second guess why we canonically had them ranked where we did.

What if there was a way to say..

OK, Jimmy Thomson had x amount of non-peak years, and if you count them together, it should count for an extra Norris trophy, or something. Would it be possible to come up with a system that allows for that?

What is this even??

I actually really really really like pnep's HHOF monitor idea. Gives good balance between prime and longevity. Of course if it were me I'd tweak it a bit to favour prime more and longevity less.

Isn’t the point of that system to predict HHOF worthiness based on existing standards? Not a proprietary greatness metric?

Kessel such an idiot

He is onee leaf that should never ever be picked in the atd

A awkward flake who got chased out of Boston and Toronto

2 yrs in Pittsburgh shouldn't erase whe he didn't do in the mecca of hockey

LOL

All he did was lead your team in scoring every year, and I don't know what else you want from a winger. You'll never find any of his centers in the ATD.

…or the MLD… or the AAA….. ever.

Leafs select 2 time cup winner Dan Bain C and 4 time cup winner Bob Nystrom rw

Spare forwards

Bain is a good pick.

His attitude is not profesional and that should only be magnified in the atd world.

The aloof Pete Mahovlich is a professional? Rob Ramage who got drunk and killed a teammate in a car crash is a professional?

I can't wait to make my pick.

I don't think this person has ever been drafted but I think once I make the pick, most would agree he would go either 1st or 2nd overall.

This scares me, but at least you warned us.

I highly recommend you bounce your ideas off of someone else. Like me, for example.

 

[Iceman]

I can't wait to make my pick.

I don't think this person has ever been drafted but I think once I make the pick, most would agree he would go either 1st or 2nd overall.

1st or 2nd overall where? In the MLD?

Is he a future 2017 NHL draftee?

 

[jarek]

It doesn’t sound like anyone is arguing for Thomson over Doughty except for Leaf Lander anyway, but… just being in the NHL during the original six era was an achievement. Every season a player plays in that era counts for something. If you’re a top-30 defenseman in the world, even after adjusting for talent pool size, that’s like being a #2 today. Brent Seabrook has made a whole ATD caliber career out of being a #2 year after year, and if he played in the O6 he’d be a guy who was “just there†season after season.

It sounds like you want there to be an all-encompassing player greatness metric that takes all factors into consideration. It’s never going to happen. Iain Fyffe’s player contribution numbers are nice, and they weigh peak, prime and career to a degree that looks pretty fair, but it looks like he stalled after the 1920s or so, and who knows when it will all get released. Still, it would never be “definitiveâ€, just a tool that would help to identify players that it’s clear we overrate or underrate – kinda like VsX did for a player like Gottselig, or for a player like Reggie Leach. Neither of them have risen as high or dropped as low as VsX by itself seems to indicate they should, but it’s certainly affected their rankings by causing people to second guess why we canonically had them ranked where we did.

Thomson and Doughty were used specifically just to illustrate my point. I get what you're saying about just being in the O6 era being an accomplishment, but how much of one? Not really enough to matter, at least for me..

What is this even??

Just throwing ideas out there!

 

[chaosrevolver]

The Cobalt Silver Kings will select a player with 3 top tens in goals and is also currently fifth in goals this season. He has been a strong even strength producer and has played a big part in both Stanley Cup wins he has had.

The Cobalt Silver Kings select C/RW - Jeff Carter

 

[Cyborg LeClair]

Nice pick, Chaos. I was looking at Jeff Carter as well. I watched him plenty when he was with the Flyers and he always had a lackadaisical playing style, he'd float around and capitalize on a loose puck and rip it into the net. He had a reputation for "only scoring in blowouts". And almost every playoff run, he was injured for us. He still scored a lot of goals tho because he's a very talented player.

Then he sulked in Columbus and a lot of people didn't like that, but since joining the Kings, he has been really really good. That's when he "reached his potential" so to speak. Usually a very consistent effort every night, backchecks, forechecks, plays hard on the puck. Really everywhere on the ice and a constant threat. And in the playoffs, he has been a key member in each deep run for the Kings. Kopitar obviously has the responsibility as 1C, but Jeff Carter has been an excellent 2C for the Kings and has stepped up his play when needed most. Great to see him having another great goal scoring year in him as well.

 

[chaosrevolver]

Yeah it has become hard to ignore him. If he continues his pace he will have three top 5 finishes in goals.

 

[seventieslord]

By the end of this season Carter will almost have the 7 year prime of a guy like Joe Nieuwendyk. That's not as much a credit to Carter as it is a point about how overrated Joe Nieuwendyk is.

A forward's goal is to produce offense in any way possible, not just off their own stick. Carter, therefore, should not be judged only on his goals. He's been top-30 in points just once in his career (working on a likely second right now). I was looking forward to seeing a good comparison of him to other MLD scoring line centers.

That's not to say he's a bad pick; after all, we're drafting spares and everyone is looking for something different. Though there are a dozen better "in a vaccuum" centers on the board (and that's IF he finishes this season as he's on pace to), Carter's not the same kind of player all of them are.

There are four, however, who stand out to me because they seem to bring everything he does, with even better offense.

 

[Cyborg LeClair]

The Borg Collective feel that they currently have a head coach who can bring a team together for playoff runs that feel like catching lightning in a bottle. However, while his teams have almost always been successful enough in the regular season to make the playoffs, Sutter has not always had teams that dominate the regular season. Often, his teams have the "slow start" effect and come on hot around playoff time. His teams have also always been very defensively stifling, sometimes lacking offensive muscle. Considering the Borg is a team with tremendous goal scorers and puck moving defensemen, we would also like to get an assistant coach who will provide the Yin to Sutter's Yang. The Borg will now be picking a coach who has had tremendous regular season success, winning 8 Division Titles in his 9 seasons and is currently coaching the leader of the Central division. While he has no championships in the NHL, he has taken his AHL team to back to back Calder Finals, capturing the trophy once. In the NHL, he has won a Jack Adam's trophy as best coach in the NHL and has also helped his team capture the President's Trophy as well as coaching teams placing 1st, 1st, 1st, (Wild are currently 1st), 2nd, 2nd in their conference. Despite his lack of playoff success, his teams have always been set up in an advantageous ranking come playoff time. His teams have also been very high scoring, with his teams finishing in goal scoring(in order and missing his half/half season in 2012 with Washington and Anaheim): 8th, 3rd, 1st, 19th, 7th, 2nd, 10th, 18th, (Wild are currently 2nd). He currently has a coaching record of 451 wins and 207 losses. For these reasons, the Borg Collective proudly assimilate, as their assistant coach, Bruce Boudreau.

A.K.A. Bruce Borgdreau​

 

[VanIslander]

By the end of this season Carter will almost have the 7 year prime of a guy like Joe Nieuwendyk. That's not as much a credit to Carter as it is a point about how overrated Joe Nieuwendyk is

I will slit my throat before I admit Carter is as good as player as Joe was.... (suck your stATS!~)

 

[VanIslander]

Have we come to this?

 

[seventieslord]

Come to what?

To Bruce Boudreau as an ATD coach.

 

[seventieslord]

I will slit my throat before I admit Carter is as good as player as Joe was.... (suck your stATS!~)

I'm not saying he is either, so take a pill.

 

[VanIslander]

To Bruce Boudreau as an ATD coach.

Over at least three (3) undrafteds, of course!!!

 

[tony d]

With pick 558 I take my first right wing spare, this guy could score some goals but also could play a good board game as well.

Out of the Soviet Union Russian Right Winger Konstantin Loktev.

Next has been pmed.

 

[jarek]

Over at least three (3) undrafteds, of course!!!

Boudreau is an assistant coach here, though. I think that does make a difference - they wanted him to offset an apparent flaw of their head coach.

I'm not quite sure if it'll work out that way, but there it is.