ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV

[Iceman]

Why is Brent Burns considered a good pick but Marchand is not?

 

[chaosrevolver]

Why is Brent Burns considered a good pick but Marchand is not?

Some of us probably wouldnt take him as high as he did..but hes also been in the league for almost double the time...has a better peak and is having a historically impressive season (which naturally will make others rate him higher than he probably should be).

 

[Iceman]

Some of us probably wouldnt take him as high as he did..but hes also been in the league for almost double the time...has a better peak and is having a historically impressive season (which naturally will make others rate him higher than he probably should be).

What he is doing this year should be judged as what it is right now, not what it could potentially look like.

He has played forward like half his career, no? He is obviously being drafted as a dman. So I don't know what value his forward seasons hold as a dman in the ATD.

I am just not sure why one should get the pass while the other shouldn't. Personally I'm indifferent if they are in the ATD or not.

 

[chaosrevolver]

What he is doing this year should be judged as what it is right now, not what it could potentially look like.

He has played forward like half his career, no? He is obviously being drafted as a dman. So I don't know what value his forward seasons hold as a dman in the ATD.

I am just not sure why one should get the pass while the other shouldn't. Personally I'm indifferent if they are in the ATD or not.

Thats what I was saying about his current year. But even now a 70+ point season with physicality and strong defensive play is an incredible year.

Perhaps..I cant remember how many seasons he has played as a forward..I dont know if its half his career or not. I think it was 2 seasons in SJ and maybe 1 or 2 in Minny? I will say though that his versatility is a big plus and shouldnt be a detraction. He has had success as a forward and a defender.

I dont think everyone gave Burns a pass. There has been a couple people giving crap to the Marchand pick...and that doesnt mean any of those think the Burns pick was all that good.

I know I think Burns fits closer to Subban than he is in this draft but Burns has been a solid player for a lot longer than both PK and Marchand.

 

[Iceman]

Thats what I was saying about his current year. But even now a 70+ point season with physicality and strong defensive play is an incredible year.

Perhaps..I cant remember how many seasons he has played as a forward..I dont know if its half his career or not. I think it was 2 seasons in SJ and maybe 1 or 2 in Minny? I will say though that his versatility is a big plus and shouldnt be a detraction. He has had success as a forward and a defender.

I dont think everyone gave Burns a pass. There has been a couple people giving crap to the Marchand pick...and that doesnt mean any of those think the Burns pick was all that good.

I know I think Burns fits closer to Subban than he is in this draft but Burns has been a solid player for a lot longer than both PK and Marchand.

I don't think his defensive game is all that impressive quite frankly.

I guess I do agree on the Subban comparison in an ATD sense. There is another guy still on the board with better playoff record than both Subban and Burns. He has never had THAT season so to speak but I don't see him as worse than them.

 

[chaosrevolver]

I don't think his defensive game is all that impressive quite frankly.

I guess I do agree on the Subban comparison in an ATD sense. There is another guy still on the board with better playoff record than both Subban and Burns. He has never had THAT season so to speak but I don't see him as worse than them.

I think its taken a step up this year but in years past I agree.

I think I know who you are talking about. Assuming I am right I cant say I agree but I can understand whyd you think that way.

 

[jarek]

Thats what I was saying about his current year. But even now a 70+ point season with physicality and strong defensive play is an incredible year.

Perhaps..I cant remember how many seasons he has played as a forward..I dont know if its half his career or not. I think it was 2 seasons in SJ and maybe 1 or 2 in Minny? I will say though that his versatility is a big plus and shouldnt be a detraction. He has had success as a forward and a defender.

I dont think everyone gave Burns a pass. There has been a couple people giving crap to the Marchand pick...and that doesnt mean any of those think the Burns pick was all that good.

I know I think Burns fits closer to Subban than he is in this draft.

I like Subban now more than Burns when he got picked, I'll tell you that.

I'd really be interested to hear what seventies has for VsXD for both Burns and Subban. I wouldn't be surprised if it's close.

 

[Dreakmur]

Thats what I was saying about his current year. But even now a 70+ point season with physicality and strong defensive play is an incredible year.

Perhaps..I cant remember how many seasons he has played as a forward..I dont know if its half his career or not. I think it was 2 seasons in SJ and maybe 1 or 2 in Minny? I will say though that his versatility is a big plus and shouldnt be a detraction. He has had success as a forward and a defender.

I dont think everyone gave Burns a pass. There has been a couple people giving crap to the Marchand pick...and that doesnt mean any of those think the Burns pick was all that good.

I know I think Burns fits closer to Subban than he is in this draft but Burns has been a solid player for a lot longer than both PK and Marchand.

I looked at burns a long time ago. The facts at he has been a 3rd pairing defenanseman until recently scared me off.

 

[Dreakmur]

Yeah I couldnt remember what his reputation in Minnesota was.

I started going through his career year by year... Kept think to myself "ok, next year is the year he becomes a top pair guy"... I thought that a lot.....

 

[Dreakmur]

I like Subban now more than Burns when he got picked, I'll tell you that.

I'd really be interested to hear what seventies has for VsXD for both Burns and Subban. I wouldn't be surprised if it's close.

Why do people always ask what 70s has for a vs.X? They are not that hard to calculate. Just crunch the numbers yourself.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I started going through his career year by year... Kept think to myself "ok, next year is the year he becomes a top pair guy"... I thought that a lot.....

Do you mean to say he was a third pairing defenseman through his entire stay in Minnesota? Because what I'm seeing looks like this:

08: #2 on team, #3 ES
09: #2 on team, #5 ES
10: #3 on team, #6 ES
11: #1 on team, #1 ES
12: #3 on team, #3 ES
Establishes himself as a valuable defenseman at 22, and the Wild continue to experiment how best to deploy him. His overall workload doesn't vary much season-to-season, but his deployment does. He goes to San Jose and gets bumped back a couple of slots on a deeper team.

13: #14 on team, #11 ES
14: #12 on team, #12 ES
Pretty obviously a forward.

15: #1 on team, #1 ES
16: #1 on team, #1 ES
17: #1 on team, #1 ES
At this point, he goes back to defense, and starts playing far more than anyone else on his team.

In Minnesota, they certainly weren't consistently using him as an everyday top-pair guy, but it looks like he did sometimes, no?

 

[Leaf Lander]

Leafs draft Roberto Louongo G

And coach Barry Trotz

 

[BenchBrawl]

Montreal select Joe Pavelski, F

Pavelski is an ideal spare; he can play every forward position, is decent both offensively and defensively, known as a clutch player and solidified this status by leading the playoffs in goals last year.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Is VsXD calculated against the forward benchmarks or are new benchmarks done for defensemen?

In any case, I'm still not totally convinced VsX is a good system to compare the offense of defensemen.The way they accumulate points is a bit different than forwards.I have no better alternative though.

 

[Stoneberg]

West Lafayette is pleased to add our first spare, Rejean Houle, F.

Houle was a great shadow and gives us the ability to ice a more defensive bottom six if necessary.

TDMM bio

 

[Dreakmur]

Do you mean to say he was a third pairing defenseman through his entire stay in Minnesota? Because what I'm seeing looks like this:

08: #2 on team, #3 ES
09: #2 on team, #5 ES
10: #3 on team, #6 ES
11: #1 on team, #1 ES
12: #3 on team, #3 ES
Establishes himself as a valuable defenseman at 22, and the Wild continue to experiment how best to deploy him. His overall workload doesn't vary much season-to-season, but his deployment does. He goes to San Jose and gets bumped back a couple of slots on a deeper team.

13: #14 on team, #11 ES
14: #12 on team, #12 ES
Pretty obviously a forward.

15: #1 on team, #1 ES
16: #1 on team, #1 ES
17: #1 on team, #1 ES
At this point, he goes back to defense, and starts playing far more than anyone else on his team.

In Minnesota, they certainly weren't consistently using him as an everyday top-pair guy, but it looks like he did sometimes, no?

Yep, that's what I had too... which is why I was scared. He was a top pairing defenseman once before 2015. He will add a 4th season as a top guy this year.

 

[VanIslander]

Montreal select Joe Pavelski, F

Pavelski is an ideal spare; he can play every forward position, is decent both offensively and defensively, known as a clutch player and solidified this status by leading the playoffs in goals last year.

1. He's slow.
2. He hasn't played a lot of LW.
3. He's not much of a playmaker (not very creative; doesn't CREATE offensive opportunities)
4. He's not physical in the corners, doesn't agitate or fight.

I wouldn't call him an IDEAL spare. If you want a guy who could be a defensively-responsible center or finishing right winger if needed as a stop-gap measure, he'd be worthy.

 

[jarek]

1. He's slow.
2. He hasn't played a lot of LW.
3. He's not much of a playmaker (not very creative; doesn't CREATE offensive opportunities)
4. He's not physical in the corners, doesn't agitate or fight.

I wouldn't call him an IDEAL spare. If you want a guy who could be a defensively-responsible center or finishing right winger if needed as a stop-gap measure, he'd be worthy.

There's also that a substantial amount of his points come on the PP.

Him being soft is a big reason why I shied away from him when I chose Parise.

I was actually really surprised to find how non-physical he is.

 

[ck26]

Amarillo's makeup picks will be Fast Eddie Giacomin and two-way center Brad Richards.

 

[VanIslander]

I was actually really surprised to find how non-physical he is.

Watch more Sharks games. He and Thornton rarely check. At least Thornton gets pissed off at close checking (from Toews most notably, whom he has fought several times in anger) and is willing to drop the gloves.

Marleau forechecks and backchecks more than either Joe 9 games out of 10. And Patty ain't the most physical guy.

There are two undrafted who have had the checking role for years and years on the Sharks top six.

One thing I like about Burns is as a RW he gave as good as he got!

 

[jarek]

Watch more Sharks games. He and Thornton rarely check. At least Thornton gets pissed off at close checking (from Toews most notably, whom he has fought several times in anger) and is willing to drop the gloves.

Marleau forechecks and backchecks more than either Joe 9 games out of 10. And Patty ain't the most physical guy.

There are two undrafted who have had the checking role for years and years on the Sharks top six.

One thing I like about Burns is as a RW he gave as good as he got!

I really can't help but feel that there's a lot of anti-homerism or something going on here about Jumbo Joe.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=127535133&postcount=13

There are so many sources talking about how he plays a power forward style of game. Perhaps he hasn't played this way for a little while and that has coloured your perception of the rest of his career?

As far as his two-way game, I have a hard time believing that a guy who has received at least token Selke consideration every year since 2006 isn't at least a decent two-way player.

 

[VanIslander]

There are so many sources talking about how he plays a power forward style of game.

Power forwards forecheck: chase pucks in the offensive zone physically. It says squat about backchecking. In fact, Shanahan was a great power forward who wasn't much of a backchecker of note.

As far as his two-way game, I have a hard time believing that a guy who has received at least token Selke consideration every year since 2006 isn't at least a decent two-way player.

Seriously? He received bare token votes until last season, when the new coach demanded accountability and JT wanted to get back in the organization's good graces after being stripped of his captaincy. JT had a career year last year in terms of effort and desire to succeed even without the puck. That is NOT the JT of most of his career.

JT is an elite passer with great vision, size and determination to protect the puck and willingness to push back when pressured physically. Nothing I've said challenges that. Anything more than that - ESPECIALLY at this level of competition - is laughable!

BTW, what the heck is anti-homerism? If you mean a refusal to paint an OVERLY rosy picture about all dimensions of players on one of one's favorite teams, then yeah, I'm guilty. I've loved Thornton and Pavelski for years but I ain't being any less balanced in my assessment of their strengths and weaknesses than I have been with my fav Marleau!

 

[BenchBrawl]

1. He's slow.
2. He hasn't played a lot of LW.
3. He's not much of a playmaker (not very creative; doesn't CREATE offensive opportunities)
4. He's not physical in the corners, doesn't agitate or fight.

I wouldn't call him an IDEAL spare. If you want a guy who could be a defensively-responsible center or finishing right winger if needed as a stop-gap measure, he'd be worthy.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware Gordie Howe was available.

Pavelski hasn't played a lot of LW but at least he has, and he has played RW and C.That makes him one of the players with the most positional flexibility, and that's one of the big reasons I called him an "ideal spare".

He is not a playmaker, but then so what?

He is not physical, and I never said he was neither.He doesn't have to be.But yeah, I'd prefer him if he was a power forward.I doubt he would have lasted.

In the end, Pavelski has received decent low-end Selke consideration, so he is a good defensive player and can be a decent PKer.He is also a clutch player, much more so than your boy Patrick Marleau.Pavelski scored more goals in the playoffs last year than Marleau had points.Actually, Pavelski scored 14 goals in last year's run, which is the best point total Marleau ever got in the playoffs (05-06).

It is true that Pavelski scored a lot on the PP, but then no spare is perfect, else they'd be starters.He is there to replace an injured player, most likely a winger, and I like him in that role.

 

[jarek]

Power forwards forecheck: chase pucks in the offensive zone physically. It says squat about backchecking. In fact, Shanahan was a great power forward who wasn't much of a backchecker of note.


Seriously? He received bare token votes until last season, when the new coach demanded accountability and JT wanted to get back in the organization's good graces after being stripped of his captaincy. JT had a career year last year in terms of effort and desire to succeed even without the puck. That is NOT the JT of most of his career.

JT is an elite passer with great vision, size and determination to protect the puck and willingness to push back when pressured physically. Nothing I've said challenges that. Anything more than that - ESPECIALLY at this level of competition - is laughable!

BTW, what the heck is anti-homerism?

I would describe anti-homerism as an irrational and often illogical hatred or disparagement of a person, object, etc.

In the bio you will also find that he supposedly happily accepted a checking role for Canada in 2004, and that he sacrificed offense to play more responsibly on defense when the playoffs came around. Granted, those are the only real mentions of two-way play in terms of any quotes in the bio provided. They are somewhat backed up by consistent, albeit mostly poor, Selke voting throughout his career.

Surely he should be expected to provide at least adequate two-way play at this level?

 

[VanIslander]

Surely he should be expected to provide at least adequate two-way play at this level?

Put a committed backchecker on his line and there will be no questions on the matter.