ATD 2017 Draft Thread II

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He was probably not in the top percentile during his time, but these quotes lead me to believe he was at worst average.

I appreciate you being realistic about this kind of thing. Too often in the past we have had people find a few quotes and say "see, he's above average!"

With players from this era it can be tricky. Everything someone digs up adds to the body of knowledge we have on the player. Every quote that gets found not only needs to be weighed with the other quotes we have on the player (is it sometimes positive, sometimes negative?), but also against the other quotes found on other players from the same era (are they mentioned negatively more or less often? What superlatives are used? Is his speed mentioned 4 or 5 times while it’s brought up every time these other guys are mentioned? And so on)…
 
No, it’s pretty simple really. MSL is a modern player and since everyone gets adjusted to modern type standards, he stays put. Hasek is one generation behind and would get a modest boost up by an inch and ten pounds to reflect that he was actually average sized for a goalie in his time.

DOB range – adjustment

1 A.D.-1889 - +5â€, 50 lbs
1890-1909 - +4â€, 40 lbs
1910-1929 - +3â€, 30 lbs
1930-1949 - +2â€, 20 lbs
1950-1969- +1â€, 10 lbs
1970-2017- NIL

It’s something I came up with about 8 years ago and though I’m not really attached to it, it keeps getting used here, and it’s not hard to see why. I’ve never seen a case of a player after adjustment looking out of whack; it does a really good job of accounting for how tall/short, heavy/light a player was for their era and puts it into a context anyone can understand. What does 5’9, 165 in a forward who peaked in 1919 mean? Is it big or small? 6’1â€, 205? Oh, ok, so about average.

If you check the last MLD's lineup assassination thread I had some fun with adjusted size and showed the tallest, shortest, lightest and heaviest players in the draft. The results were from all eras, specifically because this formula (if you can even call it a formula) does not appear to overly advantage or disadvantage any era.

I understand your era adjustment formula as players are just simply bigger than years past but I see you use 1970 as the cutoff for modern players. My question is so does that make Mario Lemieux (1965 Dob) then 6'5 like 240. Or how about Gretzky he was about 6'0, 175 so that makes him around 6'1, 185. Sounds pretty interesting. Thank God Lindros wasn't born 3 years earlier or he be about 6'6, 255. I like your thought process as it definately gives you an idea of who were the bigger, average, smaller players were during there era.
 
Even then Messier is a C/LW you could certainly have them play together if you so choose
As someone who has watched them since before Messier was a rookie it drives me crazy that Messier is listed at all as a LW in an all-time great context.

Yeah, he was drafted based on his junior play as a LW with no particular elite skill but a combination points total in terms of strength, speed, stickhandling, family history and work ethic (his creativity and hockey sense were seriously questioned but the Oilers scouting report was that he'd improve in those areas, and he did).

But Messier moved to center for one and one reason only. If you don't know why, please don't rip me for thinking him ONLY an all-time great center!!

Hint: BT.
 
I can sorta see not wanting to pair Firsov with Bathgate, but I see no issues pairing him with Richard, who did fine with other puck dominant players (such as Elmer Lach) on his line. Firsov did often dominate the puck carrying duties on his line, but showed later in his career when he was deployed as a midfielder that he could adjust to his role within a team concept and remain highly productive. He's a fairly flexible player in my mind, and was a very strong pick where he was taken this year.

It was certainly quite tempting to take him. It would have quite possibly led to the best top-6 in ATD history. I'm happy with Gerard though.

I appreciate you being realistic about this kind of thing. Too often in the past we have had people find a few quotes and say "see, he's above average!"

With players from this era it can be tricky. Everything someone digs up adds to the body of knowledge we have on the player. Every quote that gets found not only needs to be weighed with the other quotes we have on the player (is it sometimes positive, sometimes negative?), but also against the other quotes found on other players from the same era (are they mentioned negatively more or less often? What superlatives are used? Is his speed mentioned 4 or 5 times while it’s brought up every time these other guys are mentioned? And so on)…

I believe there was at least one season when Lalonde was very good defensively. If you check my old bio of him you'll find the quotes. It was specifically the 1919 Stanley Cup series against Seattle.

Bio: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=45193879&postcount=143
 
I can sorta see not wanting to pair Firsov with Bathgate, but I see no issues pairing him with Richard, who did fine with other puck dominant players (such as Elmer Lach) on his line. Firsov did often dominate the puck carrying duties on his line, but showed later in his career when he was deployed as a midfielder that he could adjust to his role within a team concept and remain highly productive. He's a fairly flexible player in my mind, and was a very strong pick where he was taken this year.

Agree on the usage of Firsov and that he was a strong pick...when I jumped ahead of seventies to select Denneny I thought it was either Denneny or Firsov that he was after
 
I understand your era adjustment formula as players are just simply bigger than years past but I see you use 1970 as the cutoff for modern players. My question is so does that make Mario Lemieux (1965 Dob) then 6'5 like 240. Or how about Gretzky he was about 6'0, 175 so that makes him around 6'1, 185. Sounds pretty interesting. Thank God Lindros wasn't born 3 years earlier or he be about 6'6, 255. I like your thought process as it definately gives you an idea of who were the bigger, average, smaller players were during there era.

Yes, that would make Lemieux 6'5" 240. It makes sense... that's how big you'd have to be today, to stand out as much as Lemieux did 20 years ago. :thumbu:
 
I understand your era adjustment formula as players are just simply bigger than years past but I see you use 1970 as the cutoff for modern players. My question is so does that make Mario Lemieux (1965 Dob) then 6'5 like 240. Or how about Gretzky he was about 6'0, 175 so that makes him around 6'1, 185. Sounds pretty interesting. Thank God Lindros wasn't born 3 years earlier or he be about 6'6, 255. I like your thought process as it definately gives you an idea of who were the bigger, average, smaller players were during there era.

That's an issue with cut offs of any kind. It's completely absurd to think of Fedorov (69) and Lidstrom (70) as being from different cohorts, but that issue would remain no matter where you put the lines.

I'd like to see a more refined, year by year study done on this, if only to see the anti-adjustment crowd scream about it.
 
Bryan Hextall Sr., RW

And 2nd pick in 5 min[/QUOTE]

Seriously though, wonderful pick for sure. Would have been a great completion for my 1st line.
 
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One of the best things about having a co-GM is the sane decision making: just when one gets the impulse to go one way, one's co-GM reminds one of the cost of that way and benefit of another way.

Namba 17 is forcing me to empty my inbox/outbox daily! :laugh:
 
Luc Robitaille is not the best LW available, but there's no one I'd rather put next to Gretzky.

Robitaille - Gretzky - Kurri
Pronger - Blake
 
One of the best things about having a co-GM is the sane decision making: just when one gets the impulse to go one way, one's co-GM reminds one of the cost of that way and benefit of another way.

Namba 17 is forcing me to empty my inbox/outbox daily! :laugh:

Sounds like you guys have quite a partnership going.
 

LD Alexei Kasatonov
kasatonov.jpg

Many hockey fans watched Alexei Kasatonov during his 7 year NHL career. What many of them might not have realized is that they were watching one of the all time greats.

Alexei joined the New Jersey Devils at the age of 30, after a storied international career. However his best days were behind him at that point. While he had a couple of good seasons with the Devils, his play deteriorated and soon he bounced around the league with Anaheim, St. Louis and Boston.

Alexei's hockey resume is stacked. Three Olympic tournaments (1980, 1984, 1988), winning 2 golds and 1 silver. Five times he was a member of the World Champion squad (1981, 1982, 1983, 1986, 1989). He was even named the best defenseman in 1983 World Championships and was a 5 time tournament all star. He was also a standout in 4 Canada Cup tournaments. In the Russian leagues he was a star by the age of 16 when he joined SKA Leningrad before joining the famous Red Army team two years later. While with the Red Army, he helped the team win 11 national titles.

Kasatonov joined the New Jersey Devils half way through the 1989-90 season where he was reunited with Slava Fetisov. Throughout the 1980s with Red Army and the Soviet national team Kastanov almost always played beside defensive partner Fetisov. The pair was considered to be the best defensive tandem outside of the NHL, and better than most in the NHL.

So you'd think they'd be happy to be together again right? Wrong. The two despised one another to the point where they refused to talk to one another. They kept as far away from each other as they could. The dispute started back when the two were still playing for the Red Army. The players were demanding to be treated better, to have more freedom, to be allowed to play outside of Russia. Of course this was during the days of communism and such outbreak was not tolerated. Fetisov and Igor Larionov led the rebellion, but Kasatonov didn't support their stance. He was even accused of spying on his teammates and reporting back to the hockey and government authorities.

Despite their passionate indifferences, the pair played exceptional hockey together, both internationally and later in the NHL.

Kasatonov finished his first NHL "half season" with 6 goals and 21 points in 39 games. He was also a +15 and seemed to adapt quickly to the NHL and the North American style of play. Some even said he was doing better than Fetisov, which was a bit of a surprise as it was always Fetisov who got a lot of publicity during the 1980s, at least here in North America.

Kasatonov had two strong seasons following his rookie NHL year. He scored 10 goals and 41 points and had a team high +23 in 1990-91. He followed that up with a 12 goal, 40 point effort in 1991-92.

Things started going downhill for Alexei as he registered the lowest totals of his NHL career in 1992-93. It was becoming obvious that age had caught up to the legendary skater, and his best days were behind him.

Despite his poor season, the Anaheim Mighty Ducks claimed Kasatonov in their Expansion Draft. He appeared in 55 games with Anaheim and was even invited to the NHL All Star game as the Ducks representative. However Kasatonov was traded later in the year, to St. Louis where he played in 8 games plus 4 playoff contests, scoring twice.

The Boston Bruins signed the veteran in 1994. They had hoped the veteran could help out another great defenseman - Ray Bourque - in leading the Bruins to the next level. He was solid defensively in the 1995 lockout shortened season and appeared to be back on track, but he appeared in only 19 games with the Bruins in 1995-96 before finishing the year in the minor leagues.

Alexei left North America to play one more season back in his native Russia in 1996-97. He is now a part of the Russian Ice Hockey Federation and was the general manager of the silver medal winning 1998 Olympic squad.
http://internationalhockeylegends.blogspot.com/2011/02/alexei-kasatonov.html
 
As someone who has watched them since before Messier was a rookie it drives me crazy that Messier is listed at all as a LW in an all-time great context.

Yeah, he was drafted based on his junior play as a LW with no particular elite skill but a combination points total in terms of strength, speed, stickhandling, family history and work ethic (his creativity and hockey sense were seriously questioned but the Oilers scouting report was that he'd improve in those areas, and he did).

But Messier moved to center for one and one reason only. If you don't know why, please don't rip me for thinking him ONLY an all-time great center!!

Hint: BT.

I agree.No one will ever play Messier at LWer.
 
It's incredible how much Bernard Geoffrion looks like your typical Québécois from Montreal.He was born in Montreal too.Just that impression you get when you see someone on the big stage that facially looks like he's coming straight out of your neighborhood or even family :laugh:
 
Brockville Invincibles select Tommy Phillips
200px-TomPhillipsIceHockey.jpg

Stanley Cup Champion (1903, 1907),
Stanley Cup Finalist (1904, 1905, 1909),
Stanley Cup Challenge leading scorer (1905, 1907), MHL Pro 1st All-Star Team (1907), ECAHA 1st All-Star Team (1908),
Top-3 his league in goals/points (1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908)
“Best All-Around Player†of 1900-1909 (Ultimate Hockey)
“Best Defensive Forward†of 1900-1909 (Ultimate Hockey)
 
Missed out on hextall which stings but I'll get another guy I was targeting, someone who I always liked growing up and he has that rare right handed shot and familiarity with Lidstrom.

Welcome to Toledo defenseman Pick 105 Larry Murphy.

larry_murphy_4.jpg


Position: D • Shoots: Right
6-2, 210lb (188cm, 95kg)
Born: March 8, 1961 (Age: 55-325d) in Scarborough, Ontario ca
Draft: Los Angeles, 1st round (4th overall), 1980 NHL Entry

Murphy has 1216 career points, pleased to have him with Toledo.

Next has been pmed.
 
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