At what point is it time for a rebuild?

[StreetHawk]

If we go full on blow it up and rebuild, 5 years is best case scenario. It could take a lot longer, and it could also fail completely.

People talk about being stuck in the black hole, but if you blow it up you could end up in the hell hole which is even worse.

Buffalo is going on year 8 of the hell hole with no end in sight.

LA has doughty, Carter and quick who they can deal without restrictions. They should return enough to start a rebuild.

Kings paying for the trades of Sekeras and Lucic now. You retool if you have a few key young players coming up in the very near future. But, if you don’t have that then la just remains middle of the pack for a while.

Brown despite a rebound year is very hard to deal with the term left. Kop if he waives would fetch a great return even at $10 million.

So the kids have the assets to start a rebuild of asset collection. It’s whwther they want to do it or not.

This summer is a fork in the road of where hey will be headed in the next 3-5 years.

 

[Rorschach]

I would trade both. It makes us a worse team, but it's better for the organization in the long run. We're not going to win anything in the short term so I don't see the point of holding on to them.

They're probably both worth 1st round picks right now. If you wait to trade them, they lose value.

If we lose Doughty, yes. In a retool, sorry but heck no. Our track record in replacing defensemen is Forbort and a retread Phaneuf. The days of signing Mitchell and Scuderi to low cap hits and for free is long over.

Martinez is getting near to Voynov's level, think about how long it has taken us to not replace Voynov.

Now if your idea is to upgrade Muzzin or Martinez and using those guys as a package, then never mind the above, let me hear your idea.

 

[kenito7]

If we go full on blow it up and rebuild, 5 years is best case scenario. It could take a lot longer, and it could also fail completely.

People talk about being stuck in the black hole, but if you blow it up you could end up in the hell hole which is even worse.

Buffalo is going on year 8 of the hell hole with no end in sight.

The Kings have played 9 playoff games in the last 4 years and won one of them. This is a hell hole. This is the 70's and 80's all over again. If you can't do better than this with the core they have now it is time to try something new even if it takes 5 more years. I am tired of watching the same old players getting the same old result

 

[AlphaBravo]

After getting over the emotional aspect of the loss yesterday and the series, objectively, we weren't so horrible that we need to do a full rebuild.

1. Goaltending: We are fine in this department. We learned this season that Quick/Campbell can get the job done. I saw no issues that raise any concerns for me in this department. We also have Cal Peterson in the pipeline, among others.

2. Defense: Getting Phaneuf really helped stabilize our defense. Also, we have good depth defensemen in LaDue, Fantenberg etc. that can fill in if there are injuries. If by some off chance we get Voynov back, we will have a surplus of defensemen and can trade for assets.

3. Forwards: Well this is the obvious problem. I'm not crazy about Stevens, but you can't blame the coach for the Kings lack of scoring. The players have to take ownership and finish on their shots and chances. You can't teach that, its a matter of skill.

If I had to rank our forwards in tiers, I would rank them as follows:

Tier 1 - Difference Makers
Kopitar
Carter

I would not trade either of these players. Having that 1A/1B center options gives us strength. Also, Carter is on a cheap contract. If we trade him, we might as well do a full rebuild.

Tier 2 - Borderline Top 6ers

Toffoli
Pearson
Brown

I would move Brown up to Tier 1 if I knew he could perform the same way he did this season, going forward. But there are no assurances. However, it doesn't matter because Brown's contract cannot be traded. Toffoli has the pure ability to score (when he is on his game), but is starting to look like Cammareli or Gabby. If he can't finish and score, he does not bring anything else to this team as far as puck possession and driving from O to D zone. Pearson has speed and is better at driving the play, but lacks Toffoli's finish.

In the cap era, you need players like Pearson and Toffoli. However, considering that Toffoli is going to want $6 million long term when his bridge deal is up, I would look to see if there is a better option at that price in the UFA or trade market. I would keep Pearson because Pearson will likely command $3.5 - $4.5 million a year, which is fine for a player of his caliber.

Tier 3 - Top 9 Forwards

Kempe
Iafallo
Lewis
Reider

These are players that can get you between 10-20 goals in a season, but are more suitable on the third line. I am fine with keeping them on the third line as long as we don't need to trade someone like Lewis for cap reasons.

Tier 4 - Plugs

Basically, everyone else. I think for this category the key is keeping the cap low. We cannot afford to use $1.6 million a year on Cliffords. So if we can trade or not resign any player that is a plug making more than $1 million a year, I am all for it.

What to do:

Hard to say at this stage, but Blake should test the free agency market to see if he gets lucky and lands a Tavares, JVR, Kane, etc. or other legit top 6 scorer. I doubt we get lucky in free agency because of the ridiculous prices out there and the term some of these players will want. The only exception I will make is for Tavares. If we can open up cap space by trading Toffoli/Martinez for prospects and high picks to free up cap space for Tavares, and if he is interested, I would go all in and give him the $10-12 million he wants.

If we land Tavares, we can move Carter to play with Kopitar. Our top 6 will be lethal with Carter-Kopitar-Brown, Kempe-Tavares-Pearson. Then we can slot in Vilardi as our 3 C with Iafallo and Lewis or Reider (whichever one is on the team). Or if we want Vilardi to play wing, we can have him on the Tavares line, and move Kempe to 3C.

Obviously Tavares is a long shot. If we don't sign him, Blake will have to pull off a hockey trade by dealing one of Muzzin or Martinez in a package for a top 6 winger. If we want to upgrade on Toffoli, then we will have to package him for an upgrade. But I would not package Toffoli with Martinez or Muzzin, because I would want to use Martinez/Muzzin in a deal to get another top 6 winger.

 

[AlphaBravo]

The Kings have played 9 playoff games in the last 4 years and won one of them. This is a hell hole. This is the 70's and 80's all over again. If you can't do better than this with the core they have now it is time to try something new even if it takes 5 more years. I am tired of watching the same old players getting the same old result

I don't think that is an accurate way to assess the team. We sucked or were not cup contenders for very different reasons each of those years.

In 2015, there was the post-cup hangover, Voynov/Richards issues, Pearson injury, among other reasons why we did not make the playoffs. The present team and the 2015 team are radically different as far as the roster is concerned, and the problems we faced.

In 2016, we were severely thin in defense. We got creamed in the playoffs by the Sharks because we only had Doughty/Muzzin as real defensemen, and had freakin Scuderi, McBain, Schenn playing minutes on defense. The present team has solid defensive pairings and the depth to survive if we go down a man (e.g., game 2 against Vegas with Muzzin and Doughty out, we only allowed 2 goals and took the game to 2OT).

In 2017, we still had issues on defense, but couldn't score and Quick was injured. Since then we got Phaneuf, Quick has recovered, and we have better goaltending depth. We still suck at scoring, which is the sole reason why we could not beat Vegas.

So instead of tearing the team down, the Kings need to solve that scoring problem. Getting even one legit top 6 winger can suddenly change things, whether via trade, free agency, or even Vilardi entering our lineup. You can't simply conclude that based on past failures, we should just blow the team up. You have to look at what problems existed in the past and how this team has evolved.

From my perspective, I am completely wiping out the years that we won the cups and not using that as a basis for any form of analysis. I see this team's existence as starting from year 2015 and trying to see what we have and how we evolved to this state, and how we become contenders.

Trading Kopitar, Carter, Doughty and Quick will be a huge mistake because there is absolutely no guarantee that we can draft anyone of their caliber. We need to use them as long as possible to try to become contenders. If we rebuild, we may suck for 10 years. With Kopitar, Carter, Doughty, and Quick, at least we have a 50/50 chance to be cup contenders again with the right supporting cast.

 

[Reaper45]

When Drew signs for 10m or more you have 3 guys making 10 million or more. You would still have scoring problems on the wings and not much cap space.

The idea is you get help on the wings via trade who make less than what is currently on the roster. Swap out cash for kids who have scoring potential and hope that they mesh with two of the best centers in the game in Kopitar and Tavares.

 

[SFKingshomer]

When Doughty says he wants over 10 million or doesn't want to stick around.

 

[kenito7]

I don't think that is an accurate way to assess the team. We sucked or were not cup contenders for very different reasons each of those years.

In 2015, there was the post-cup hangover, Voynov/Richards issues, Pearson injury, among other reasons why we did not make the playoffs. The present team and the 2015 team are radically different as far as the roster is concerned, and the problems we faced.

In 2016, we were severely thin in defense. We got creamed in the playoffs by the Sharks because we only had Doughty/Muzzin as real defensemen, and had freakin Scuderi, McBain, Schenn playing minutes on defense. The present team has solid defensive pairings and the depth to survive if we go down a man (e.g., game 2 against Vegas with Muzzin and Doughty out, we only allowed 2 goals and took the game to 2OT).

In 2017, we still had issues on defense, but couldn't score and Quick was injured. Since then we got Phaneuf, Quick has recovered, and we have better goaltending depth. We still suck at scoring, which is the sole reason why we could not beat Vegas.

So instead of tearing the team down, the Kings need to solve that scoring problem. Getting even one legit top 6 winger can suddenly change things, whether via trade, free agency, or even Vilardi entering our lineup. You can't simply conclude that based on past failures, we should just blow the team up. You have to look at what problems existed in the past and how this team has evolved.

From my perspective, I am completely wiping out the years that we won the cups and not using that as a basis for any form of analysis. I see this team's existence as starting from year 2015 and trying to see what we have and how we evolved to this state, and how we become contenders.

Trading Kopitar, Carter, Doughty and Quick will be a huge mistake because there is absolutely no guarantee that we can draft anyone of their caliber. We need to use them as long as possible to try to become contenders. If we rebuild, we may suck for 10 years. With Kopitar, Carter, Doughty, and Quick, at least we have a 50/50 chance to be cup contenders again with the right supporting cast.

I accept most of your points but still for the most part disagree. Each year while different reasons the result was the same. I do not think the Kings have the assets to trade for more scoring without hurting themselves in other areas and free agents that can score will cost to much. I am not for trading draft picks for help. Even if you are not for a total rebuild the draft picks should be protected.

 

[AlphaBravo]

I accept most of your points but still for the most part disagree. Each year while different reasons the result was the same. I do not think the Kings have the assets to trade for more scoring without hurting themselves in other areas and free agents that can score will cost to much. I am not for trading draft picks for help. Even if you are not for a total rebuild the draft picks should be protected.

Yeah, I agree with you on the draft picks. No more trading picks for rentals or short term fixes. If we can package a draft pick with a roster player to get a youngish player signed with term, that is a different story though.

 

[johnjm22]

The Kings have played 9 playoff games in the last 4 years and won one of them. This is a hell hole. This is the 70's and 80's all over again. If you can't do better than this with the core they have now it is time to try something new even if it takes 5 more years. I am tired of watching the same old players getting the same old result

Semantics. You can call it whatever you want; black hole, hell hole, shit hole, death hole, whatever. Also, I didn't say I wasn't in favor of doing something new.

The point is, no matter what strategy you take, there's risks involved. We blow it up completely, we could end up like the Sabres, or we could get lucky and end up like the Penguins.

We do a reload/retool, we could end up like Boston or Nashville, but we could also end up like Calgary/Minnesota.

LA has doughty, Carter and quick who they can deal without restrictions. They should return enough to start a rebuild.
Kings paying for the trades of Sekeras and Lucic now. You retool if you have a few key young players coming up in the very near future. But, if you don’t have that then la just remains middle of the pack for a while.
Brown despite a rebound year is very hard to deal with the term left. Kop if he waives would fetch a great return even at $10 million.
So the kids have the assets to start a rebuild of asset collection. It’s whwther they want to do it or not.
This summer is a fork in the road of where hey will be headed in the next 3-5 years.

I'm not opposed to blowing it up, it's just not my preffered route. I would go for the re-tool personally.

I still stand by my statement: 5 years is a best case scenario. There's no guarantee you're going to bounce back that quickly, even if you get great assets in return for Doughty/Carter/Kopitar ect.

 

[LAKings88]

??? Kopitar Brown
Pearson Vilardi Carter
Iaffalo Amadio Kempe
Clifford Thompson Lewis
Andreoff/Brodzinski

Forbort DD
Amart Voynov
Brickley/LaDue Phaneuf

Trade Toffoli and Muzzin for a 1st line winger.

 

[KingTrouty]

??? Kopitar Brown
Pearson Vilardi Carter
Iaffalo Amadio Kempe
Clifford Thompson Lewis
Andreoff/Brodzinski

Forbort DD
Amart Voynov
Brickley/LaDue Phaneuf

Trade Toffoli and Muzzin for a 1st line winger.

This is my favorite so far A lot of gamble with Amadio and to a lesser degree Vilardi, but both are surrounded by competent talent that would seemingly help them settle in. A year of development now for Iafallo and Kempe, and AI is slotted on the third where he probably fits better. Kopi needs a top line goal scorer. Clifford and Andy need out, too, but that's a small quibble. Defense looks bang on, I like keeping AMart, too. He may not have as much raw skill as Muzz, but he plays with more intensity and we need that on this listless team. Plus Muzz will return more, as he is a top pairing LHD for some clubs. AMart is still a hell of a top 4 for us, too.

And we get Toffoli out! Lol I think we could get a very nice piece in return for Muzzin and Toffoli. Someone that would look very nice next to Kopi, with term and youth. Muzzin alone should easily get more than a first as I saw mentioned elsewhere on the board

 

[kovacro]

Real lofty expectations to slot Vilardi in the top 6. I just don’t know if he’ll be ready to take that on off the bat.

 

[LAKings88]

I think Vilardi will get a shot. Not a guarantee but I don’t think he’ll be in juniors again. I think Stoll said the work will be up to him.

 

[LAKings88]

I think Kempe has potential but I don't see him as a center. Imho.

 

[LAKings88]

Any Reign guys that have a shot next year?

What is Rempal’s potential?

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

I think Vilardi will get a shot. Not a guarantee but I don’t think he’ll be in juniors again. I think Stoll said the work will be up to him.

It would be a complete waste of time for him to be in the OHL next year.

 

[Reaper45]

??? Kopitar Brown
Pearson Vilardi Carter
Iaffalo Amadio Kempe
Clifford Thompson Lewis
Andreoff/Brodzinski

Forbort DD
Amart Voynov
Brickley/LaDue Phaneuf

Trade Toffoli and Muzzin for a 1st line winger.

I just dont think Vilardi is going to be ready to be a center in the NHL right off the bat. He needs to work on his d a lot. We saw the growing pains with Kempe this season but they needed him to be a center and he stepped up. I dont know if they just throw Vilardi in off the deep end unless they have to ala Kempe.

 

[johnjm22]

Real lofty expectations to slot Vilardi in the top 6. I just don’t know if he’ll be ready to take that on off the bat.

If he's ready for the NHL, I think he's ready for the top 6. If we didn't have Kopitar here, than I would be concerned about giving him too much too soon, but AK takes the pressure off of him.

I don't think we should be looking at things in terms of "top 6" "bottom 6" anyways.

 

[King'sPawn]

I would definitely move some pieces.

With Phaneuf in the organization, Muzzin could be moved.

I'm ready to move on from Toffoli. He's showing a career path of Michael Ryder.

Other moves would be minor, but between moving those two players and injecting new youth, skill, and character would be necessary first steps.

I'd still keep Carter, Pearson, and Doughty (if he wants to stay).

 

[Sacha Baron Corbin]

??? Kopitar Brown
Pearson Vilardi Carter
Iaffalo Amadio Kempe
Clifford Thompson Lewis
Andreoff/Brodzinski

Forbort DD
Amart Voynov
Brickley/LaDue Phaneuf

Trade Toffoli and Muzzin for a 1st line winger.

Not a bad idea, my only concern would be if Vilardi is ready to step into the 2C role right off the bat

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

I’m not giving the players a pass either. This was a collective effort to get swept. Aside from Quick, Kopitar and Doughty.

I thought Iafallo was the 2nd best forward we had....and yet he was a healthy scratch game 2. I don't get it....

 

[Bandit]

I thought Iafallo was the 2nd best forward we had....and yet he was a healthy scratch game 2. I don't get it....

Amadio, & LaDue accounted for 2 of the 8 total points the Kings collected in the series and played a total of 3 games combined. Not tat it matters really. Carter, Pearson, Toffoli, Lewis, Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez all put up goose eggs.

 

[Rorschach]

I don't see how you guys think trading a defenseman is a good idea. When Martinez has to play 30 min+ in a single playoff game, that tells me two things:
1) we need a better defenseman than Martinez
2) we need to keep Martinez and slot him lower in his correct role in order to have depth that can win

Now if we trade a defenseman like Muzzin in a package for a RHD (in case Voynov is just smoke), I'm for that. We need more quality defensemen and we need to slot all of the defensemen properly.

Otherwise we'll just get rolled again by another 4 line team in the playoffs.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

Las Vegas just broke the mold of "3 to 5 year plans" and demonstrated the importance of speed, tenacity and a system that can win...they have no superstars (except MAF ) and
the Marchesaults (sp) Smith's and Karlsson's were unprotected players. It shows there are diamonds in the rough out there and you don't need superstars...yes, they will probably
not win the Cup, but their model and inaugural season just forever changed these 3-5 year plan models.
I have never seen a system that has all 5 players in optimum positions and not a key area of ice not covered in 1-3 seconds...it looks like they have 6 players on the ice. During about a 10 minute time, I was counting ALL times the Kings connected just 2 consecutive passes and it was like 3 in 10 minutes...LV gives no fukkks and not time to do anything and forces errors...makes you look like ECHL players out there.