At 30th Overall the Red Wings Select Centre Joe Veleno

[MBH]

When I watch him, I dont see a killer instinct offensively that I would expect big numbers from him. 50 points seems pretty good. I think hes going to be a guy that when you watch him though, you come away thinking he impacts the game a lot more than just his points though. Hes great with zone entries and carrying the puck. I think the advanced stats crowd will love him.

I actually think a really fair comparison for him is Backlund. Really good all around player that can play up high in the line up if you need him but doesnt put up crazy numbers.



Hossas defensive game is starting to get overrated now that hes gone from the league. He isnt close to the best to never win a Selke. They actually just had something about this on the Athletic. He was a really solid defensive winger for a long time, but was never a selke calibre type guy or had a season where he should've gotten serious consideration for it either.

Guys like Trottier, Keon and Zetterberg were definitely better than Hossa.

Disagree.
Hossa's defensive play - and the tone it set for the younger players - is a big reason why the Hawks won 3 cups.
I can't tell you about Keon - barely remember him as a Hartford Whaler.
Even Trottier - my memory of him was as an elite producer.
I kind of remember Tonnelli and Goring being the defensive forwards on that squad. I heard a lot about Trottier's two-way play later, from coaches and players like Yzerman/Sakic - but I never saw it.

Either way, Maltby was better defensively than Z or Hossa or Datsyuk on most nights.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Either way, Maltby was better defensively than Z or Hossa or Datsyuk on most nights.

What do you base that on?

 

[MBH]

What do you base that on?

Shot blocking. Backchecking. Penalty killing.
Dedication to defense.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Shot blocking. Backchecking. Penalty killing.
Dedication to defense.

All players who are considered good defensively should be doing all of these things (except for shot blocking, arguably).

How often did Maltby play against the opposing team's top lines, and how effective was he?

 

[MBH]

All players who are considered good defensively should be doing all of these things (except for shot blocking, arguably).

How often did Maltby play against the opposing team's top lines, and how effective was he?

The grind line quite often got difficult linematchings.

A modern version of Maltby, to some extent, is Glendening.
Glendening has one 40th place finish in Selke voting so far.

I get it. You credit these offensive stars for being strong on the defensive side too.
But the days of Doug Jarvis and Craig Ramsey winning the trophy are history.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The grind line quite often got difficult linematchings.

How often?

I'm not being argumentative, I'm honestly curious because I wasn't particularly concerned about line matchups when I was a kid watching that line.

 

[MBH]

How often?

I'm not being argumentative, I'm honestly curious because I wasn't particularly concerned about line matchups when I was a kid watching that line.

It wasn't uncommon for Scotty to put the grind line on the other team's top line to antagonize and hem them in.
But with Fedorov-Yzerman-Larionov-Draper around, Scott had lots of options.
Maltby was a warrior for this team.

Wasn't the same after lockout. Lost that extra bit of speed that made him so good.

 

[The Real Pastafarian]

What a great video. I think Al MacInnis felt sorry for him after the third one and passed up taking a couple of slappers purely out of pity.

I haven't thought about Maltby for a long time. What a great team. Because of the cap, there will never be another team like that.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

How often?

I'm not being argumentative, I'm honestly curious because I wasn't particularly concerned about line matchups when I was a kid watching that line.

A lot really and he loved to start periods with them or shifts after goals for and against.

I actually think the grind line caused kind of coaching stupidity on that stuff. They were a great line, I think a lot of coaches like Babcock watched it and did the throw your 4th line over now kind of stuff and the Grind Line wasn't really a fourth line. The Ducks had one of those in terms of a dominant fourth line that actually accomplishes things and can be used like that. Probably the best current one is on Long Island, but I don't think they are nearly as talented as the Grind Line.

 

[newfy]

Disagree.
Hossa's defensive play - and the tone it set for the younger players - is a big reason why the Hawks won 3 cups.

I'm not saying he wasnt good defensively but hes definitely not the best defensive player to never win a selke. I dont know if he was ever the best defensive forward on his own team to be honest. In Ottawa he had gus like Fisher and Alfie, Detroit had Pav and Z, the Hawks had Toews and to an extent Bolland, I guess he was likely the best on those Atlanta teams.

Hossa played his best defensive hockey with the Hawks and its turned into a narrative that he did that his whole career. He has one top 5 selke finish. He was a great defensive winger but hes not the greatest non selke winner of all time

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm not saying he wasnt good defensively but hes definitely not the best defensive player to never win a selke. I dont know if he was ever the best defensive forward on his own team to be honest. In Ottawa he had gus like Fisher and Alfie, Detroit had Pav and Z, the Hawks had Toews and to an extent Bolland, I guess he was likely the best on those Atlanta teams.

Hossa played his best defensive hockey with the Hawks and its turned into a narrative that he did that his whole career. He has one top 5 selke finish. He was a great defensive winger but hes not the greatest non selke winner of all time

In an era of Hawks hockey where their road vs home splits were laughably bad in terms takeaways to benefit the home Hawks players. I think Toews and Hossa were very good two-way players to be sure. But where a lot of narrative took off on both guys was stat watching certain categories drastically altered by a ridiculous home scorer.

I am surprised Alfie is still waiting, I think I take him over Hossa to be honest in terms of them. I do take the idea that Hossa can get in as a first ballot as I no longer have to worry about Zetterberg at all, better player for sure in my opinion.

 

[newfy]

In an era of Hawks hockey where their road vs home splits were laughably bad in terms takeaways to benefit the home Hawks players. I think Toews and Hossa were very good two-way players to be sure. But where a lot of narrative took off on both guys was stat watching certain categories drastically altered by a ridiculous home scorer.

I am surprised Alfie is still waiting, I think I take him over Hossa to be honest in terms of them. I do take the idea that Hossa can get in as a first ballot as I no longer have to worry about Zetterberg at all, better player for sure in my opinion.

Hossa was never the guy on his team like Zetterberg was. Alfie shouldve been in before Hossa, but Kevin Lowe getting in is bad. He might be the worst player in there. And yeah those stats definitely do play a huge role. In Hossas highest selke finish he had 50 takeways at home and only 25 on the road. He had 4.39 takeaways per 60 and 2.37 per 60 on the road.

Some serious stat padding went on

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Hossa was never the guy on his team like Zetterberg was. Alfie shouldve been in before Hossa, but Kevin Lowe getting in is bad. He might be the worst player in there. And yeah those stats definitely do play a huge role. In Hossas highest selke finish he had 50 takeways at home and only 25 on the road. He had 4.39 takeaways per 60 and 2.37 per 60 on the road.

Some serious stat padding went on

Hossa is probably the worst first ballot guy I have seen, bumping Sundin from that honor for me. So really a couple of head-scratching decisions in terms of this class.

But I do think it is interesting that defensive ability is starting to play a bigger role lately in the last few years, there and really all over the league.

For a player like Veleno we are discussing here, you can see that defense matters and I think sometimes with all the advanced stats we don't probably pay enough attention to guys that have good defensive metrics. Maybe that is because at times it is still incomplete, remember defensive analytical darling Brendan Smith. But I really think that is the next phase of advanced stats and I will be curious if a guy like Veleno can up his value there. I think he has a ton to like early on, I know people are really concerned about +/- and whatnot. But I think Veleno made a ton of strides this year. I really think he can spring forward next year. For him to be a big success though, to me he has to become a rock solid defensive player and I think eventually he can drive more offense later on through defense. I don't think he has the offensive instincts, but a lot of his talent lends itself to defense then transition. I think it was Button that threw out Backlund in Calgary, I would be extremely happy if Veleno could build into something like him.

 

[odin1981]

If he becomes a budget LH'd Bergeron I will be ecstatic. I don't think he will be 70+ points, but at the same time I don't think he will have the winger support either to fuel his production either.

With our roster filled out and V in his prime I could see him getting to the 50-60 range however. But it's wait and see on his fo% because he just isn't strong enough to win them against full grown ahl men atm.

 

[lilidk]

Red wings mid ninety were like all star team ,only Avalanche could compete with them, Grind line was good ,but not something great.
Glenny is better than any of those guys. Helm is better than Draper was.
Don't forget Zetterberg against Crosby.

 

[MBH]

Red wings mid ninety were like all star team ,only Avalanche could compete with them, Grind line was good ,but not something great.
Glenny is better than any of those guys. Helm is better than Draper was.
Don't forget Zetterberg against Crosby.

Dude, by 08 the Grind Line was past its prime. 97-04 is the heyday of the grind line.
Helm is not better than Draper was. Draper has a Selke and actually got Hart votes one year.

 

[MBH]

If he becomes a budget LH'd Bergeron I will be ecstatic. I don't think he will be 70+ points, but at the same time I don't think he will have the winger support either to fuel his production either.

With our roster filled out and V in his prime I could see him getting to the 50-60 range however. But it's wait and see on his fo% because he just isn't strong enough to win them against full grown ahl men atm.

I'm looking at a Filppula type if he can put it together a bit.
I'd be pretty happy with that.
If he's better? Awesome.
But there's a chance he's less Filppula and more Cogliagno.

 

[Henkka]

Hossa was never the guy on his team like Zetterberg was. Alfie shouldve been in before Hossa, but Kevin Lowe getting in is bad. He might be the worst player in there. And yeah those stats definitely do play a huge role. In Hossas highest selke finish he had 50 takeways at home and only 25 on the road. He had 4.39 takeaways per 60 and 2.37 per 60 on the road.

Some serious stat padding went on

Could be also different system on road games. Like more trap, and less forecheking.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Could be also different system on road games. Like more trap, and less forecheking.

The statisticians for NHL games are (Or they were. I'm not sure if that changed) from the home market. It's how a guy like Robert Svehla ended up leading the league in hits one season with 386.

 

[jkutswings]

Glenny is better than any of those guys. Helm is better than Draper was.

How so?

Luke Glendening Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Darren Helm Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Kris Draper Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Draper scored more, was better on faceoffs, WON A SELKE, and got votes several other years, including a couple of top 10 finishes.

I could understand saying that maybe somebody is better at a single aspect, like shot blocking or play along the boards, but neither Glendening nor Helm will ever have the overall resume of a Kris Draper.

 

[ridilon]

How so?

Luke Glendening Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Darren Helm Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Kris Draper Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Draper scored more, was better on faceoffs, WON A SELKE, and got votes several other years, including a couple of top 10 finishes.

I could understand saying that maybe somebody is better at a single aspect, like shot blocking or play along the boards, but neither Glendening nor Helm will ever have the overall resume of a Kris Draper.

As much as I agree with the fact that lilidk's post is borderline silly let's not forget that Helm/Glen haven't had anything like the teammates that Maltby/Draper did. Stat comparing is not the end all be all of comparisons. But as I said, no way are they better. Perhaps not such a great a difference as some might believe, however.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Huh? The guy was one of the younger players in the AHL this year and took a month to really acclimate to the league, and started to become a very productive player after the WJCU20 confidence boost. He was chasing the puck a lot because as the best skater on his line, he was usually forechecker. In transition he was often the late player joining the rush and was given more defensive responsibilities than his wingers. Early in the season his role was providing D support and head-manning the puck to a winger but after the WJC he started to skate it out of the zone a lot more.

Veleno will be fine. At the low end I think he'll be a very good, skilled defensive 3C like an Alyn McCauley. On the high end he has 1B center potential much like Larkin. I think realistically he hits the middle ground and becomes the Brendan Morrison/Paul Stastny defensive anchor to a line of super skilled wingers (Maybe Lafrenierre and Zadina?!) A guy who would be the 2nd line center on a team with more center depth but his defensive and complimentary skills allow him to play with the best offensive players.

First, you need to pick a narrative and stick with it. Chasing the puck has little to do with actual forechecking assignments and everything to do with knowing where the puck is going before it gets there. It happens in all three zones, not just the offensive one and was also an issue in juniors. The puck does not follow him around at all and will limit his offensive productivity going forward. People frequently confuse being responsible with being smart. Veleno is a very mature, responsible player, but is not overly intelligent as a hockey player.

Again, the ceiling is a high-end 3rd line center (still a valuable player). The good news is that his floor is probably an average third-line center. Those who are expecting him to play up the lineup will be disappointed in the end.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

I'm looking at a Filppula type if he can put it together a bit.
I'd be pretty happy with that.
If he's better? Awesome.
But there's a chance he's less Filppula and more Cogliagno.

I loved cogliagno for a time.

 

[lomekian]

First, you need to pick a narrative and stick with it. Chasing the puck has little to do with actual forechecking assignments and everything to do with knowing where the puck is going before it gets there. It happens in all three zones, not just the offensive one and was also an issue in juniors. The puck does not follow him around at all and will limit his offensive productivity going forward. People frequently confuse being responsible with being smart. Veleno is a very mature, responsible player, but is not overly intelligent as a hockey player.

Again, the ceiling is a high-end 3rd line center (still a valuable player). The good news is that his floor is probably an average third-line center. Those who are expecting him to play up the lineup will be disappointed in the end.

It all depends on line-up composition. If our elite players are wingers, he could be a decent 2c. If we draft Byfield or equivalent, he's likely a v good 3 C.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

It all depends on line-up composition. If our elite players are wingers, he could be a decent 2c. If we draft Byfield or equivalent, he's likely a v good 3 C.

I think he would struggle to play with elite wingers because I do not think he has the requisite hockey IQ. You don't need to be the most skilled player to play with high-end players, but you absolutely do need to be a very smart player to do so (think Bert vs. Abby). Again, I think we are in trouble if we are counting on him to be our second-line center. I would encourage you to think about how robotic he looks when he plays. I don't think he has an innate understanding of where is line mates are and where pressure is coming from.

Just my two cents though.