Player Discussion Artemi Panarin

[McRanger92]

Panarin’s regular season is meaningless to me. He’ll score 80-100 points. I want to see him improve off last year’s playoffs where, outside of his OT GWG in Game 7 v Pitt, he wasn’t very effective. If he fades again, there will be questions to answer.

Best Panarin take I've seen yet

Still can't back up your allegations, I see.

Still waiting for proof of your allegation that Trouba threw his skates because of Panarin. Yeah, I know you can't back it up.

So, a guy who has chemistry with no one puts up 90 points and leads the team in primary assists?

Sound logic.

He must be better than a superstar. Putting up 90 solo? Wow!!!

Give it a rest guy I'm just busting balls. We dont have to agree on the interweb

 

[xsniper11x]

I certainly wouldn’t say putting up 80-100p is meaningless, although I agree that PO performance is more important.

How he puts up those 80-100p though is very important. Are 40-50% of those pts on the PP cause of the Adam Fox effect, or is it only 20-30% PP? Is he making his line-mates better in the process, or just taking obscene risks that will rack up Pts, but also cause his line to constantly get pinned in the DZ? These are crucial factors that just looking at his total pts alone can’t tell you.

It’s entirely plausible the team could be better off w/ a 60-70p player at a much lower cap that complements their teammates more than a 80-100p Panarin that plays on an island to himself.

 

[Machinehead]

We keep screaming "90 points!" and ignoring that

1) Scoring has absolutely skyrocketed. Every team and their minor league affiliate has a 90 point player.

2) Panarin's 95 point season was in 69 games. Then he had 58 in 42. If not for covid, he's closer to a 110 point player as a Ranger.

Beyond the other criticisms, his raw production is disappointing this year.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

We keep screaming "90 points!" and ignoring that

1) Scoring has absolutely skyrocketed. Every team and their minor league affiliate has a 90 point player.

2) Panarin's 95 point season was in 69 games. Then he had 58 in 42. If not for covid, he's closer to a 110 point player as a Ranger.

Beyond the other criticisms, his raw production is disappointing this year.

I think we should just ignore the numbers and focus on what he looks like on the ice.

He's been shit aside from the last month of the regular season last year and the first month of the season this year. Completely disengaged, braindead and selfish. It doesn't help that it looks like hes lost a step too and he was never super fleet of foot to begin with.

He still shows some flashes of the "old" Panarin so you know that its still there, but what was once a nightly occurrence with him has become the occasional surprise.

Signing him will go down as the biggest mistake of this current era. Such a dumb and short sided move.

 

[EdJovanovski]

We keep screaming "90 points!" and ignoring that

1) Scoring has absolutely skyrocketed. Every team and their minor league affiliate has a 90 point player.

2) Panarin's 95 point season was in 69 games. Then he had 58 in 42. If not for covid, he's closer to a 110 point player as a Ranger.

Beyond the other criticisms, his raw production is disappointing this year.

When you factor in that scoring has absolutely skyrocketed, that makes our 1st & 2nd overall picks being on pace for 35pts look even worse :/ already like the lowest scoring 1st & 2nd overalls in NHL history through their first few seasons, without factoring in the higher scoring this year

 

[Peltz]

I think we should just ignore the numbers and focus on what he looks like on the ice.

He's been shit aside from the last month of the regular season last year and the first month of the season this year. Completely disengaged, braindead and selfish. It doesn't help that it looks like hes lost a step too and he was never super fleet of foot to begin with.

He still shows some flashes of the "old" Panarin so you know that its still there, but what was once a nightly occurrence with him has become the occasional surprise.

Signing him will go down as the biggest mistake of this current era. Such a dumb and short sided move.

Those flashes weren’t just a nightly occurrence. They used to happen nearly every shift. He was basically Adam Fox as a forward at one point. Now he’s not.

I don’t think signing him was a mistake to be honest. I just think he needs more of a hard-ass coach.

I don’t care if he’s not a 110 point player anymore. I just want him to give up less defensively and keep the puck in the opposing zone more.

 

[DanielBrassard]

When you factor in that scoring has absolutely skyrocketed, that makes our 1st & 2nd overall picks being on pace for 35pts look even worse :/ already like the lowest scoring 1st & 2nd overalls in NHL history through their first few seasons, without factoring in the higher scoring this year

Yeah scoring is up an entire goal from when a guy like Yakupov entered the league. So adjusting for that is necessary.

As for Panarin he's physically declined from even a couple of years ago. That is the reason why he's not the same player. I don't think it's commitment or lack of caring. He just can't do the things he used to be able to do. Maybe the Wilson incident spooked him and now he's more cautious about attacking the middle of the ice but he's always been a guy who commands the perimeter but exploited seams and passing lanes so idk if it's that either.

 

[will1066]

Yeah scoring is up an entire goal from when a guy like Yakupov entered the league. So adjusting for that is necessary.

As for Panarin he's physically declined from even a couple of years ago. That is the reason why he's not the same player. I don't think it's commitment or lack of caring. He just can't do the things he used to be able to do. Maybe the Wilson incident spooked him and now he's more cautious about attacking the middle of the ice but he's always been a guy who commands the perimeter but exploited seams and passing lanes so idk if it's that either.

He used to be, in general, much harder on the puck. Going after the opposing puck carrier to get it like a puck hound, instead of being floaty on the back check. He's much more selective nowadays about going into the middle of the ice. The mind is writing checks his body can't cash, perhaps.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yeah scoring is up an entire goal from when a guy like Yakupov entered the league. So adjusting for that is necessary.

As for Panarin he's physically declined from even a couple of years ago. That is the reason why he's not the same player. I don't think it's commitment or lack of caring. He just can't do the things he used to be able to do. Maybe the Wilson incident spooked him and now he's more cautious about attacking the middle of the ice but he's always been a guy who commands the perimeter but exploited seams and passing lanes so idk if it's that either.

It's part of it, but it's not all of it because he will still do things that look like the old him and he'll do it for a stretch of games rather than for just a shift or two.

I think another poster nailed it - He signed a retirement contract, had a massive year and then was content and of the mindset that he proved his worth. Hes enabled by the organization so there is no fire lit under his ass and has either been allowed to basically pick his line mates (Quinn) or is being forced to into a combination that just doesn't work (Gallant this year and this is infuriating because he's literally broken up lines that do work and sometimes work fantastically to force ones that don't) while being able to do what ever the hell he wants out there with out any threat of discipline. He's basically the only guy on the team who hasn't been demoted or benched/scratched (even Kreider, Zibanejad and Trouba have been demoted. They may have not stuck for long but it happened.) At the same time, he should be willing to self motivate and at 11.6 million a year, that should be an expectation (even if its hard to do.)

He's also shown himself to be nearly impossible to play with. He can play with anyone when hes in wagon mode but he's barely been that since the beginning of last year. Even the fabled Strome/Panarin connection wasn't all that great after his first season here since well, he hasn't been that same guy since then.

 

[LokiDog]

He used to be, in general, much harder on the puck. Going after the opposing puck carrier to get it like a puck hound, instead of being floaty on the back check. He's much more selective nowadays about going into the middle of the ice. The mind is writing checks his body can't cash, perhaps.

The thing is he’s not that old, doesn’t play a particularly physical game at all and has comparatively less miles on his body than virtually any other player his age due to when he came to the NHL.

Not comparing them as players, but if Crosby can have the concussion history he has and still attack the dirty areas while in his 17th season and approaching his 36th birthday, Bread doesn’t have a great excuse. I know his conditioning was never Crosby level and Crosby is an outlier. But what about 38 year old Bergeron with 20 years in the NHL and tons of playoff miles? The number of guys older than Panarin who have been in the league 5-8 more years than him and played more punishing games who are still able to backcheck or attack the middle of the ice is pretty significant.

I can’t buy age and mileage as an excuse for him. And what you’re describing in being a puck hound and back checking is an effort thing. Sure conditioning factors, but he gets paid 12M and like I said he’s not that old and hasn’t been ridden that hard - the onus is on him to remain well conditioned and if he hasn’t done so, that in itself is a lack of effort. But I do think it’s a general laissez faire attitude. It isn’t just that he doesn’t attack the seams from the perimeter or make the cuts to the center anymore - the passes he forces NIGHTLY that go the other way are as if he chooses to just turn his hockey IQ off.

There’s no excuse for age (at 31 - it’s not like we’re talking about a 45 year old hanging on for dear life) to diminish your ability to make sound decisions with the puck and there’s absolutely NO excuse for continuing to do it night after night for multiple seasons and be incapable of learning from it. That, to me, is a choice to just do things his way and be content because he still puts star numbers on the board. His game, overall, at the cap hit, is detrimental.

 

[TheDirtyH]

It's part of it, but it's not all of it because he will still do things that look like the old him and he'll do it for a stretch of games rather than for just a shift or two.

I think another poster nailed it - He signed a retirement contract, had a massive year and then was content and of the mindset that he proved his worth. Hes enabled by the organization so there is no fire lit under his ass and has either been allowed to basically pick his line mates (Quinn) or is being forced to into a combination that just doesn't work (Gallant this year and this is infuriating because he's literally broken up lines that do work and sometimes work fantastically to force ones that don't) while being able to do what ever the hell he wants out there with out any threat of discipline. He's basically the only guy on the team who hasn't been demoted or benched/scratched (even Kreider, Zibanejad and Trouba have been demoted. They may have not stuck for long but it happened.) At the same time, he should be willing to self motivate and at 11.6 million a year, that should be an expectation (even if its hard to do.)

He's also shown himself to be nearly impossible to play with. He can play with anyone when hes in wagon mode but he's barely been that since the beginning of last year. Even the fabled Strome/Panarin connection wasn't all that great after his first season here since well, he hasn't been that same guy since then.

Yeah to my eyes it's not decline. Its not as though he's trying things that used to work and can't pull them off anymore, he's just content to do the same thing over and over and over game in game out and as long as he gets a point or the team wins, nothing needs to change.

Panarins most obvious talent was always his creativity. He's always been a passer more than a shooter, but he could surprise you with a shot and make you pay if you weren't prepared for it. He was as dangerous from one half wall as the other, forehand or backhand, behind the net or at the point.

Now, every shift 18000 people know all at once exactly what he's going to do in any given situation. He's still good enough to pull it off consistently, though not a majority of the time, and that tells me that the issue isn't what he's capable of, its what he's willing or motivated to try to do.

He's always taken long shifts and he's certainly never been a two-way force, but this year he looks identical to jt miller. Feet stop dead on the way to the bench, calling for the puck in the same spot always, no matter what's happening, and doing nothing to problem solve different situations. That was always his bread and butter. Its not gone from an ability standpoint, just like shooting at the lowest rate of his career has nothing to do with whether he can still shoot a puck.

 

[will1066]

The thing is he’s not that old, doesn’t play a particularly physical game at all and has comparatively less miles on his body than virtually any other player his age due to when he came to the NHL.

Not comparing them as players, but if Crosby can have the concussion history he has and still attack the dirty areas while in his 17th season and approaching his 36th birthday, Bread doesn’t have a great excuse. I know his conditioning was never Crosby level and Crosby is an outlier. But what about 38 year old Bergeron with 20 years in the NHL and tons of playoff miles? The number of guys older than Panarin who have been in the league 5-8 more years than him and played more punishing games who are still able to backcheck or attack the middle of the ice is pretty significant.

I can’t buy age and mileage as an excuse for him. And what you’re describing in being a puck hound and back checking is an effort thing. Sure conditioning factors, but he gets paid 12M and like I said he’s not that old and hasn’t been ridden that hard - the onus is on him to remain well conditioned and if he hasn’t done so, that in itself is a lack of effort. But I do think it’s a general laissez faire attitude. It isn’t just that he doesn’t attack the seams from the perimeter or make the cuts to the center anymore - the passes he forces NIGHTLY that go the other way are as if he chooses to just turn his hockey IQ off.

There’s no excuse for age (at 31 - it’s not like we’re talking about a 45 year old hanging on for dear life) to diminish your ability to make sound decisions with the puck and there’s absolutely NO excuse for continuing to do it night after night for multiple seasons and be incapable of learning from it. That, to me, is a choice to just do things his way and be content because he still puts star numbers on the board. His game, overall, at the cap hit, is detrimental.

There's nothing here that I don't disagree with, for the record. He's not that old, he's very well-conditioned from a stamina standpoint. He takes 2-minute shifts. It's really what he wants to commit to. Sometimes, it's there in moments and spurts. There's this theory that maybe he doesn't want to empty the tank in the regular season. Still, like you said, it doesn't excuse the turnover passes, which for me means that he's just thinking slow or not entirely laser focused. Or, the rest of them are all improving year over year, getting faster and stronger and his offseason commitment isn't at those levels of others.

 

[McRanger92]

There's nothing here that I don't disagree with, for the record. He's not that old, he's very well-conditioned from a stamina standpoint. He takes 2-minute shifts. It's really what he wants to commit to. Sometimes, it's there in moments and spurts. There's this theory that maybe he doesn't want to empty the tank in the regular season. Still, like you said, it doesn't excuse the turnover passes, which for me means that he's just thinking slow or not entirely laser focused. Or, the rest of them are all improving year over year, getting faster and stronger and his offseason commitment isn't at those levels of others.

Ill wait to judge him on the playoffs but the fact that he even joke's about "Russian hockey" and "looking good hockey" to explain his style annoys the crap out of me. Play Russian hockey like Kucherov or Kaprizov funny guy

 

[will1066]

Ill wait to judge him on the playoffs but the fact that he even joke's about "Russian hockey" and "looking good hockey" to explain his style annoys the crap out of me. Play Russian hockey like Kucherov or Kaprizov funny guy

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the self-aware, openly mocking attitude.

 

[Machinehead]

It goes back to what a lot of people feel -true or not, it's hard to not think it- which is that somehow, forwards get worse here.

Yes, in very different ways, but it's an overarching pattern.

I guess Zibanejad, as a whole, but even he's bad at weird specific things he shouldn't be bad at. @DanielBrassard has touched on this.

People will say "but we developed Buchnevich!" I guess, but he had his massive points breakout the minute the ink dried on his St. Louis contact, not here. Does that not smell to anyone else?

 

[LokiDog]

It goes back to what a lot of people feel -true or not, it's hard to not think it- which is that somehow, forwards get worse here.

Yes, in very different ways, but it's an overarching pattern.

I guess Zibanejad, as a whole, but even he's bad at weird specific things he shouldn't be bad at. @DanielBrassard has touched on this.

People will say "but we developed Buchnevich!" I guess, but he had his massive points breakout the minute the ink dried on his St. Louis contact, not here. Does that not smell to anyone else?

It absolutely rings true. And whether it’s coincidental or not - and a correlation that has no causation - it is beginning to be quite suspect. What’s the constant? We’ve changed GMs, coaches, personnel. Sather’s lingering presence is often noted but does he have that much of an impact on this type of thing? Or is it the way Dolan runs the team as far as everything being five star accommodations and truly just a country club atmosphere? But if that’s the case than guys like Lindgren are just naturally insane masochists who will take pucks to the face in the dying seconds of 4-0 wins despite knowing he’s going to eat a $120 steak and sleep in a five star hotel as soon as the buzzer goes. Girardi, Cally, Hank. Guys who just were innately so competitive that the culture of the team didn’t infect them? Or is the culture not the problem and it’s something no one can put their finger on. Cursed by a witch?

 

[duhmetreE]

It absolutely rings true. And whether it’s coincidental or not - and a correlation that has no causation - it is beginning to be quite suspect. What’s the constant? We’ve changed GMs, coaches, personnel. Sather’s lingering presence is often noted but does he have that much of an impact on this type of thing? Or is it the way Dolan runs the team as far as everything being five star accommodations and truly just a country club atmosphere? But if that’s the case than guys like Lindgren are just naturally insane masochists who will take pucks to the face in the dying seconds of 4-0 wins despite knowing he’s going to eat a $120 steak and sleep in a five star hotel as soon as the buzzer goes. Girardi, Cally, Hank. Guys who just were innately so competitive that the culture of the team didn’t infect them? Or is the culture not the problem and it’s something no one can put their finger on. Cursed by a witch?

I think it's org mentality. We need to swing the dial towards a more 'militant approach'.

Discipline. Mandatory training for all. A fitness test. High intensity practice.

Some players have it in them. Most, do not.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I don't think it's a curse or something that's true all the time. Gaborik was great here, as was Nash. The next best offensive players were zuccarello and Stepan. Those teams were built to win by committee and with goaltending. That also meant that our best forwards spent the bulk of their ice time with Girardi or Staal. Del Zotto and Mcdonagh we're the most talented blueliners we had over like a decade stretch.

It's not that I totally disagree with your point, but I'm not sure I'd say it's something that's exclusively about scoring forwards. Defensemen often come here and become way worse too (*cough* Trouba). It just feels like as an organization, we're always aiming 5 years ago. Let's build a team, in 2023 that would stand up pretty well against the 2018 Capitals or even the 2019 Blues....

 

[McRanger92]

Jimmy McDavid-Dom L-Brodz line might actually be good?

 

[Peltz]

I don't think it's a curse or something that's true all the time. Gaborik was great here, as was Nash. The next best offensive players were zuccarello and Stepan. Those teams were built to win by committee and with goaltending. That also meant that our best forwards spent the bulk of their ice time with Girardi or Staal. Del Zotto and Mcdonagh we're the most talented blueliners we had over like a decade stretch.

It's not that I totally disagree with your point, but I'm not sure I'd say it's something that's exclusively about scoring forwards. Defensemen often come here and become way worse too (*cough* Trouba). It just feels like as an organization, we're always aiming 5 years ago. Let's build a team, in 2023 that would stand up pretty well against the 2018 Capitals or even the 2019 Blues....

We're in 3rd place in the division. You guys act like the Rangers are a bottom dweller.

 

[TheDirtyH]

We're in 3rd place in the division. You guys act like the Rangers are a bottom dweller.

How's that?

 

[LokiDog]

We're in 3rd place in the division. You guys act like the Rangers are a bottom dweller.

We have a very good goalie and a top 5 top-four D. Our forwards execute like we are bottom dwellers. Fox won a Norris and the following year Shesterkin won a Vezina. Can you imagine if they were replaced be average players?

 

[bhamill]

When you factor in that scoring has absolutely skyrocketed, that makes our 1st & 2nd overall picks being on pace for 35pts look even worse :/ already like the lowest scoring 1st & 2nd overalls in NHL history through their first few seasons, without factoring in the higher scoring this year

Scoring (2021-22) (goals per game both teams in total) is up like 7% over the low of the last five years. This season as of 12/28 scoring was up an additional 0.02 total goals per game over last year, practically the same. Where are you guys getting “skyrocketing” from? Genuine question.

 

[I3LI3]

7 points his last 13 games.

slumpin’ hard.

is he snakebitten or has he genuinely been not that good? haven’t watched many of your guys’ games this year

 

[ajdj10]

7 points his last 13 games.

slumpin’ hard.

is he snakebitten or has he genuinely been not that good? haven’t watched many of your guys’ games this year

You don't need to watch him this year.
If you watched last year it was the same shit.
Then people said he was injured during the playoffs which is why he was doing shitty blind spinorama passes to the opposition....