Player Discussion Artemi Panarin

[LokiDog]

The point is he is too predictable. If he went down the wing with speed it would give him more space for the peel back play he does 10/10 times coming into the zone. Even if he doesn't take a shot and skates behind the net and switches to a backhand there to hit the trailer.

Instead he is trying these 1% chance backhand over 5 sticks. When it works sure it's a highlight reel goal. However, 95% of thr time it's catching all 3 forwards high and then our dmen are scrambling in thr neutral zone and doing a bad pinch.

Thank you. I’m not trying to be dismissive but I feel like more posters than not simply do not get this.

It isn’t so simple as he’s the play driver so he has the puck a lot so he turns the puck over a lot but that’s part of life. It’s the nature of the turnovers. It’s consistently choosing the same bad play despite the abysmal chance of success and knowing better (any player on Panarin’s level understands this and we have a team of coaches to address it).

Essentially:

This 1% pass from deep in the O-zone, which requires your trailing forwards to be deep in the O-zone as well, and all of you moving toward the opposing goal line has a 99% chance of being broken up cleanly by a D-man, with momentum going the other way.

Now all 3 NYR forwards are caught at the bottom of the circles or lower, having to essentially backcheck (ha, as if) from a flat footed position deep in the O-zone while Tampa is already breaking 4 through the neutral zone with speed against whichever pairing we happen to have out there.

This is the difference between simply turning the puck over and doing what Panarin is doing. He is hurting the team because he is creating more scoring opportunities for the opposition with his refusal to change, refusal to shoot, refusal to simplify. It isn’t about injuries, it’s about an unwillingness to change.

Even if there is some injury that is making him “uncomfortable” with taking contact - sack the f*** up. If Copp, Motte, Goodrow, Lindgren can all play as physical as they do despite obvious, multitudes of injuries, Panarin can take a bump here or there to make a play. I’m not asking him to play like Motte or Lindgren. I’m asking him to take ANY contact to avoid passing the puck directly to Palat inside our own blue line. The number of NHL stars who have played through injury in the playoffs negates any excuse Bread has for being THIS contact averse. If he were THAT injured, he wouldn’t be taking the optional skates, smile on his face, ripping shots like nothing is wrong or flashing those same abilities in games here and there.

He makes his 12M and win or lose, he’ll be in Tampa after the finals hanging with Vasi and Kuch like every year. I truly wouldn’t be surprised if had dinner with them between games during this series at least once. Panarin plays for his money. He doesn’t play for his team.

 

[LokiDog]

No one is saying Panarin doesn't put up enough points.

The question is whether $11.5 million buy you those points without all the turnovers and poor defense.

Or even 85% of those points and a heart.

 

[Psycho for Perreault]

Or even 85% of those points and a heart.

I'd settle for having a pulse 5v5.

 

[LokiDog]

When we say he played like this all year and some of last, we’re not wrong. First year in NY he was first in the NHL in even strength points. Second year he was 10th. This year he was 18th.

In fact, prior to coming to NY his finishes were:

9th in 5v5 scoring (as a rookie)
5th in 5v5 scoring
7th in 5v5 scoring
7th in 5v5 scoring

Then he arrives in NY and is 1st in 5v5 scoring.

Since? 10th and 18th. From never finishing outside the top 7-9 in the league in 5v5 scoring, including as a rookie, to 10th and then 18th. He averaged a 5-6th place finish his first 5 years. The last two years average out to 14th.



CBJ 2018-19: 18 PP points, 68th in NHL
2019-20: 24 PP points, 18th in NHL
2020-21: 18 PP points, 42 games
2021-22: 37 PP points, 7th in NHL

His contributions at 5v5 have been going down year over year and the percentage of points he picks up on the PP has been going up. From 18 PP points out of 87 his final year in Columbus, and 24 out of 95 his first year here, to 37 out of 96 this year. That’s more than a 13% drop in 5v5 production. 25% his first year here, 38% this year.

 

[Off Sides]

Much of this is why I don't really want to see the Rangers try to make a line revolving around how Panarin plays going forward.

Much like when LA had Gaborik and they beat the Rangers in the finals, the rest of the team was built to grind, their work opened up space for Gaborik to score goals.

Give him two line-mate who are have motors are and willing to go do the work. I have confidence the Rangers know this, and that is why he always has a Fast, Hunt or Blackwell or someone similar on his line, not because they are super talented, yet they are willing to dump the puck in, forecheck, backcheck, go into corners, block shots, etc.

 

[Mikachu93]

Much of this is why I don't really want to see the Rangers try to make a line revolving around how Panarin plays going forward.

Much like when LA had Gaborik and they beat the Rangers in the finals, the rest of the team was built to grind, their work opened up space for Gaborik to score goals.

Give him two line-mate who are have motors are and willing to go do the work. I have confidence the Rangers know this, and that is why he always has a Fast, Hunt or Blackwell or someone similar on his line, not because they are super talented, yet they are willing to dump the puck in, forecheck, backcheck, go into corners, block shots, etc.

Panarin Copp Motte should be the line

I'd really love them to try this lineup if Strome and Chytil can go tonight

Kreider Mika Laf
Panarin Copp Motte
Chytil Strome Kakko
Vatrano Goodrow Hunt

 

[will1066]

Much of this is why I don't really want to see the Rangers try to make a line revolving around how Panarin plays going forward.

Much like when LA had Gaborik and they beat the Rangers in the finals, the rest of the team was built to grind, their work opened up space for Gaborik to score goals.

Give him two line-mate who are have motors are and willing to go do the work. I have confidence the Rangers know this, and that is why he always has a Fast, Hunt or Blackwell or someone similar on his line, not because they are super talented, yet they are willing to dump the puck in, forecheck, backcheck, go into corners, block shots, etc.

Yes, I agree. His toys need to be taken away. However, he needs grinders who are more talented than those three. In the end, Panarin needs grinders who can finish worth a lick, because Panarin wants to be a playmaker or his linemates to set him up for freebies, requiring nothing that's too physically taxing for him. Ironically, Panarin would likely go to town with Carolina's forwards.

 

[Off Sides]

Panarin Copp Motte should be the line

I'd really love them to try this lineup if Strome and Chytil can go tonight

Kreider Mika Laf
Panarin Copp Motte
Chytil Strome Kakko
Vatrano Goodrow Hunt

Pretty close to my thinking, yet I'd put Stome on the top RW, and leave the Laf-Chytil-Kakko line.

 

[duhmetreE]

Panarin Copp Motte should be the line

I'd really love them to try this lineup if Strome and Chytil can go tonight

Kreider Mika Laf
Panarin Copp Motte
Chytil Strome Kakko
Vatrano Goodrow Hunt

Mika's line has abysmal xG% all playoffs. I do not understand why something hasn't been changed.

It's not working. The line is one and done all the time. Kreider and Mika should be owning the boards.

 

[Crease]

Yes, I agree. His toys need to be taken away. However, he needs grinders who are more talented than those three. In the end, Panarin needs grinders who can finish worth a lick, because Panarin wants to be a playmaker or his linemates to set him up for freebies, requiring nothing that's too physically taxing for him. Ironically, Panarin would likely go to town with Carolina's forwards.

Laf is the elite grinder Panarin needs.

 

[LokiDog]

When we say he played like this all year and some of last, we’re not wrong. First year in NY he was first in the NHL in even strength points. Second year he was 10th. This year he was 18th.

In fact, prior to coming to NY his finishes were:

9th in 5v5 scoring (as a rookie)
5th in 5v5 scoring
7th in 5v5 scoring
7th in 5v5 scoring

Then he arrives in NY and is 1st in 5v5 scoring.

Since? 10th and 18th. From never finishing outside the top 7-9 in the league in 5v5 scoring, including as a rookie, to 10th and then 18th. He averaged a 5-6th place finish his first 5 years. The last two years average out to 14th.

Another telling statistic to accompany these numbers; this year he was 21st in the NHL in turnovers per 60 for players with min. 20 games played. He is obviously first in the NHL this post season.

Last year he was 145th. In Columbus he was 206th. This year, 21st.

 

[Psycho for Perreault]

I wonder where he ranks in the playoffs for 5v5 scoring. Seems like it would be very pedestrian at best.

 

[LokiDog]

I wonder where he ranks in the playoffs for 5v5 scoring. Seems like it would be very pedestrian at best.

This year? 34th in EV scoring, by virtue mostly of games played, 4 spots behind Lafreniere and 3 guys who only played 6-7 games. Let’s put it this way - “injured” Crosby scored more EV points in 6 games than Panarin has in 18.

.39 EV points per game.

Overall, 35th in points per game with .89

 

[will1066]

His 5v5 stats are not pretty.

18 games, 3-4 for 7 pts, 26 shots, 24 shot attempts blocked, 44.8% getting shots through, 11 takeaways, 32 giveaways

 

[EdJovanovski]

Another telling statistic to accompany these numbers; this year he was 21st in the NHL in turnovers per 60 for players with min. 20 games played. He is obviously first in the NHL this post season.

Last year he was 145th. In Columbus he was 206th. This year, 21st.

It’s showing 27th for me. Tied with Draisaitl, not quite as many as scrubs like Huberdeau, Zegras, Hughes, Gaudreau, Pastrnak, Tkachuk & Malkin though. That’s Gva/60, not sure if there’s a different stat you’re referring to called Turnover/60 but I couldn’t find it on NHL.com.

In total giveaways this season he’s 1 ahead of known scrubs Kaprizov & Josi, and trailing all those other scrubs like Draisaitl. I’ve already proven that the best players in the league tend to have the most giveaways and I thought it’s pretty generally acknowledged to be a useless stat


Hell, I’m 2019-20 KRAVTSOV was 25th in Gva/60 lol. Because he had the puck on his stick almost the entire time on every shift he took, you need to have the puck a lot to give it away a lot.

 

[duhmetreE]

 

[LokiDog]

It’s showing 27th for me. Tied with Draisaitl, not quite as many as scrubs like Huberdeau, Zegras, Hughes, Gaudreau, Pastrnak, Tkachuk & Malkin though. That’s Gva/60, not sure if there’s a different stat you’re referring to called Turnover/60 but I couldn’t find it on NHL.com.

In total giveaways this season he’s 1 ahead of known scrubs Kaprizov & Josi, and trailing all those other scrubs like Draisaitl. I’ve already proven that the best players in the league tend to have the most giveaways and I thought it’s pretty generally acknowledged to be a useless stat

Compare him to himself. I’m comparing his performance to his past precedent. Just like he never finished worse than 9th in 5v5 scoring (as a rookie) and this year was 18th; why the drop from 206th and 145th in giveaways to 21st or 27th?

And did you really just quote a post that says he went from 206th to 21st in giveaways to say “well, akkkkchually… he’s 27th”. As if that kind of typo negates falling 180 spots on the list?

Did you also miss the part where I said this stat was interesting in conjunction with the other stats I posted? As in, it’s interesting that the drop off in 5v5 production and large increase in turnovers per 60 coincide with one another, not that the turnover numbers on their own were telling? When he was consistently top 7 in the world in 5v5 scoring, he also wasn’t turning over the puck as much. That is the observation. That the big drop in 5v5 effectiveness correlated with him turning the puck over more.

 

[LokiDog]

Eddie looking good blonde

You should grow your hair like that. Bread and Kravtsov have some flow. Maybe you can get a perm to match

 

[Psycho for Perreault]

This year? 34th in EV scoring, by virtue mostly of games played, 4 spots behind Lafreniere and 3 guys who only played 6-7 games. Let’s put it this way - “injured” Crosby scored more EV points in 6 games than Panarin has in 18.

.39 EV points per game.

Overall, 35th in points per game with .89

Worse than I thought, and my expectations were low. He is killing us with his TOI. Gotta limit him.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Compare him to himself. I’m comparing his performance to his past precedent. Just like he never finished worse than 9th in 5v5 scoring (as a rookie) and this year was 18th; why the drop from 206th and 145th in giveaways to 21st or 27th?

And did you really just quote a post that says he went from 206th to 21st in giveaways to say “well, akkkkchually… he’s 27th”. As if that kind of typo negates falling 180 spots on the list?

Did you also miss the part where I said this stat was interesting in conjunction with the other stats I posted? As in, it’s interesting that the drop off in 5v5 production and large increase in turnovers per 60 coincide with one another, not that the turnover numbers on their own were telling? When he was consistently top 7 in the world in 5v5 scoring, he also wasn’t turning over the puck as much. That is the observation. That the big drop in 5v5 effectiveness correlated with him turning the puck over more.

Panarin has 39 giveaways in 18 postseason games. He had 71 in 75 regular season games and only 14 in his prior 30 playoff games, combined. It’s definitely a huge issue and it’s not “well he has the puck on his stick a lot.” While generally that’s a true point, it’s not an adequate explanation for his drop off. He’s always had the puck a lot. You’re 100% correct

 

[Off Sides]

So Panarin has the puck coming down the left side, he has just entered the zone, what do people expect him to do?

Throw it towards net front? Right

It's so predictable at this point, the other team does not have worry about him taking the puck deep, behind the goal, or towards the net on his stick, just cover the other guys headed to the net.

From there the Rangers have Panarin caught deep watching his "pass", and whoever else rushed the net is also caught, any opposing player who gets the puck, a quick pass and they have numbers and momentum going the other way.

 

[SA16]

Panarin has 39 giveaways in 18 postseason games. He had 71 in 75 regular season games and only 14 in his prior 30 playoff games, combined. It’s definitely a huge issue and it’s not “well he has the puck on his stick a lot.” While generally that’s a true point, it’s not an adequate explanation for his drop off. He’s always had the puck a lot. You’re 100% correct

Meaningless stat inflated by an overzealous home scorekeeper in the playoffs. The top 5 players in giveaways/game at home in the playoffs are all Rangers (And 6 of the top 7 in giveaways/min)

The most giveaways/game on the road in the playoffs are Kucherov (by a lot), McDavid, Killorn, and then Panarin (100+ mins TOI in both scenarios/forwards only).

I agree that he's turned it over a lot but referencing the giveaway stat is not the way to show it.

----

For reference I just went to the video to look at his 7 giveaways credited in G1 vs Pittsburgh...

1-4:05 - pass to Strome in the neutral zone that hit Strome's foot and Marino picked up the loose puck. Not a real giveaway (not a great pass either though).

1-10:16 - clear attempt under pressure from behind the net that got deflected by a penguin. I don't think this is usually counted as one.

3-4:44 - Lol. Puts the back along the boards in the offensive zone as happens a million times a game and a Penguin is the first one to get it. Very much not normally counted as a giveaway.

4-18:38 Even worse ruling than the last one. He gets to a loose puck on the blue line (skating in the direction of the d zone), spins around and fires it along the boards to keep the puck in the zone and a Penguin is the first one to get it in the corner. Not remotely a giveaway.

5-6:46 He gets to a loose puck and softly dumps it out of a zone and Dumoulin is the first one to pick it up at the center ice red line. This one is marginal. I can see it being counted though.

5-10:22 Egregious turnover at the blue line. Almost cost them the game.

6-0:54 - The time is wrong on this one as the Penguins have had the puck for 10s at this point but at 0:45 he tries to make a pass to Strome in the offensive zone (definitely the right play) and the defender made a nice play to stop it. I can see them counting this though.

I would say in general for sure there is one there with the outside chance for 2 or 3 credited. Most are just nonsense by the scorekeeper.

 

[Platano King]

Kucherov had a 57% HDCF% in the 2019 playoffs. He was also 25 years old and on the upswing.

I love when a random statistic is just told to me with absolutely no context or explanation as to what it means.

 

[NYR Viper]

There was a rumor earlier this year that Panarin needed to have an extended period of time in the off-season to recover from some sort of injury. My assumption was that it was associated with the Wilson incident. He seems to be playing more tentative than in the past which to me screams like he is avoiding contact on purpose. I think we need to give him another off-season to get back to form if that is the case and lets not forget, the guy scored at a 100+ point pace this year, leading the team by a pretty wide margin (15 points in 6 less games than Mika).

I think this is a case where we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Could he improve? Yes. But just tossing aside a 100+ point 30 year old seems counter-productive.

 

[LokiDog]

There was a rumor earlier this year that Panarin needed to have an extended period of time in the off-season to recover from some sort of injury. My assumption was that it was associated with the Wilson incident. He seems to be playing more tentative than in the past which to me screams like he is avoiding contact on purpose. I think we need to give him another off-season to get back to form if that is the case and lets not forget, the guy scored at a 100+ point pace this year, leading the team by a pretty wide margin (15 points in 6 less games than Mika).

I think this is a case where we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Could he improve? Yes. But just tossing aside a 100+ point 30 year old seems counter-productive.

Sure, but if he needs a whole year to get over his fear of Tom Wilson, that’s not the best indicator of a winning mentality. Regardless, since I’m sure that’s a simplification, his first season here was 95 points in 70 games for a 111 point pace while being 1st in the NHL in 5v5 production and picking up 24.8% of his points on the PP. This year he had 96 in 75 games for a 105 point pace while being 18th in the NHL in 5v5 production and getting 38.3% of his points on the PP.

On paper, a point is a point and 111 or 105, both look pretty good. But the drop in 5v5 production and the fact that nearly 40% of his offense comes from the PP now is showing why some people don’t view all points as equal. In his first year in NY he was a dangerous, versatile play driver who would shoot, drive the net, make an array of dazzling passes and work to get the puck back when he didn’t have it. The following two years, he has not been that player. And it has shown him going from 9th (rookie year), 5th, 7th, 7th, 1st in the world in even strength production to 10th last year and 18th this year.

So the Wilson incident doesn’t actually seem to have been the catalyst to the fall off, as last year was his worst even strength season of his career, prior to this year. He has simply stopped doing the things that made him a dynamic threat in year one, and all of the year prior to coming here, and becoming a floater who feasts on the PP, doesn’t back check or go after the puck often and doesn’t mind forcing bad play after bad play that result in turnovers, as long as he gets his garbage time goal or PP assist to keep the numbers pretty.

It doesn’t sit well. I’m all for giving him another season. I want him to be the f***ing Bread Man again. I just don’t think any of the proposed excuses are cutting mustard when, last year was his worst season of even strength production even before the Wilson incident, this regular season was his worst even strength production before whatever end of year/post-season injury he’s supposedly ailing from. I think he just came to NY on a fat new 80M contract, got comfortable and got complacent. The reason I’m so down on him is because he is capable of so much better, as evidenced by his first 5 years in the league and the fact that he can’t/won’t bring his A game right now is very literally the difference between this run falling short and is already having secured a spot in the SCF.