Player Discussion Artemi Panarin

[NYRFANMANI]

People are so scared for him, lmao. So many ridiculous positions online but usually they all get high-jacked by some troll bots.

As someone with Ukrainian (I know it's a different country) heritage this is embarrassing to me.

In what regard? The fear-mongering by the media? Or Artemi's position?

(sry for asking, I'm pretty sure, just wanna make sure)

 

[SnowblindNYR]

People are so scared for him, lmao. So many ridiculous positions online but usually they all get high-jacked by some troll bots.



In what regard? The fear-mongering by the media? Or Artemi's position?

(sry for asking, I'm pretty sure, just wanna make sure)

If his position on the team is in jeopardy because he dares criticize his dear leader.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Panarin is much better than any of those guys. Guy's in his prime and hasn't gone through the rigor of the NHL for very long.

Awesome but some guys wear down at certain ages regardless. In fact, most players have precipitous drop offs by age 30. He also did still play. Ive asked repeatedly and no one ever knows. Is there anything at all to show that this matters? What happens to khl players as they age? What ages do they drop off? If it's the same as the nhl then this is a counterpoint without merit

Edit: Even if there is data for khl players, we still won't know anything for sure because we'd get data with a ton of variance in it. His situation is also so unique considering when he started playing in the NHL. Some players do. Which is why I'm hoping and praying he WILL last even as I express a lot of concern

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Because the concussed 31 year old was the last big mistake signing we made and no one can ever be happy

Or bc the nhl has countless examples, especially with the nyr, to choose from so it's not about Richards specifically. To highlight this, I had a list of names right after his example.

Also happiness and positivity can go with caution. Theres this thing called cautious optimism. I literallyexpressed a lot of hope about panarin on the previous page.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

If his position on the team is in jeopardy because he dares criticize his dear leader.

Unfortunately the old hockey guard shows their authoritarian soviet upbringing in this too. It is Russia after all, he couldn't have expected it to go unnoticed.
Hell, he may have given the interview like that on purpose. He knows the guy interviewing him is the opposition. At least I hope he knows what he's doing, if he decides to keep criticizing the regime.

 

[Foppberg]

Awesome but some guys wear down at certain ages regardless. In fact, most players have precipitous drop offs by age 30. He also did still play. Ive asked repeatedly and no one ever knows. Is there anything at all to show that this matters? What happens to khl players as they age? What ages do they drop off? If it's the same as the nhl then this is a counterpoint without merit

Oh

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Oh

Exactly! No one has any answer. It's all just "Less NHL games! He'll last until he's in his mid 30s! Guys never start getting injured. Reflexes and speed don't degrade with age or anything. Look! Over there! Is that a monkey? Look at the monkey! Look at it dancing!"

I don't see...a monk-"Keep looking it'll be fine!!!!"

This doesn't apply to you but just in general, I have never seen this place as dishonest, overly delusional and/or aggressively in denial over any issue the way it is over the mere hint of a possibility that Panarin might become an albatross

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

Exactly! No one has any answer. It's all just "Less NHL games! He'll last until he's in his mid 30s! Guys never start getting injured. Reflexes and speed don't degrade with age or anything. Look! Over there! Is that a monkey? Look at the monkey! Look at it dancing!"

I don't see...a monk-"Keep looking it'll be fine!!!!"

This doesn't apply to you but just in general, I have never seen this place as dishonest, overly delusional and/or aggressively in denial over any issue the way it is over the mere hint of a possibility that Panarin might become an albatross

What makes him successful is his finesse and vision. Those are two skills that are more likely to age well than say physicality or speed. This doesn't guarantee anything of course, but if we were taking bets on who would last well into their 30s, Panarin would be a pretty decent gamble.

UFA contracts are always gambles. IMO this one is a good gamble. It can very well still turn out poorly, but I believe the decision to sign him was the right one given the information that we currently have.

I agree with you about the games played thing people cite all the time. I don't see what it has to do with anything.

 

[Levitate]

Richards joined in 2011 and had 2 good years with the Rangers, until the age of 33. If we really have to compare that to Panarin, we should get 6 good years out of him, until the age of 33.

Yeah and honestly I don't think anyone is expecting Panarin to be at the top elite level for the entire contract...he's gonna fall off at the end of it at the very least, but that's a long time from now and things will be different in general by that time (different cap, CBA possibly, team makeup, etc)

Honestly the question in my mind is whether this works out in terms of opening a cup contending window while Panarin is still putting up first line numbers and Kakko etc are entering their prime and also putting up first line numbers. The biggest argument IMO is just "was this the right time to make this move" rather than arguing over Panarin's effectiveness in year 7 of a contract.

Just IMO

 

[Inferno]

Because we ARENT discussing Brad Richards and artemi. We're discussing a point where I could have used countless other examples, examples I literally named right after I gave the Richards example yet everyone seems to be glossing over that.

A point about age that none of us has the answer to. A point that has been discussed so often here, especially with THIS team, that I'm shocked any of you zeroed in on Richard's (again...when there was a list of other names immediately after it).

It's beyond me that Any nyr fan wants to pretend like they dont understand why age is a concern here. I get it if YOU want to believe artemi is an exceptional talent, with less nhl wear and tear, who will stay elite until he's 33 but to pretend like it's a lock? It's like I'm in an alternate universe

Not one of you has bothered to provide any sort of research to highlight why artemi is guaranteed to last. No data about khl player ages. No Information about special training hes doing to preserve his speed, power and reflexes. Nothing. It's all a hope and a prayer that people here seem to cling to for dear life.

I'm in on the hope but I dont blindly ascribe to it

Totally...100 percent...agreed.

 

[Foppberg]

Exactly! No one has any answer. It's all just "Less NHL games! He'll last until he's in his mid 30s! Guys never start getting injured. Reflexes and speed don't degrade with age or anything. Look! Over there! Is that a monkey? Look at the monkey! Look at it dancing!"

I don't see...a monk-"Keep looking it'll be fine!!!!"

This doesn't apply to you but just in general, I have never seen this place as dishonest, overly delusional and/or aggressively in denial over any issue the way it is over the mere hint of a possibility that Panarin might become an albatross

I mean maybe he will, but I think by the time the cap might become a problem it'll be much higher anyways. And it's not like Panarin is a slow power forward, I can't imagine he'll become a bad contract tbh. I woulda loved Panarin in Denver. Ya never know though.

 

[haveandare]

Exactly! No one has any answer. It's all just "Less NHL games! He'll last until he's in his mid 30s! Guys never start getting injured. Reflexes and speed don't degrade with age or anything. Look! Over there! Is that a monkey? Look at the monkey! Look at it dancing!"

I don't see...a monk-"Keep looking it'll be fine!!!!"

This doesn't apply to you but just in general, I have never seen this place as dishonest, overly delusional and/or aggressively in denial over any issue the way it is over the mere hint of a possibility that Panarin might become an albatross

There is no answer. The logic is the KHL is less physical as evidenced by NHLers who were too weak or old to keep up here going there and playing well. The fact that there is some logic to the idea doesn't prove it of course.

All the monkey stuff is pretty silly. People think Panarin is a different case than most others we've been in this position with and many people have described why. You don't agree and then it's "delusional" and akin to pointing out a dancing monkey. Ok. Those are your opinions, not facts. Just as other's reasons why they think Panarin is a safer bet are opinions.

IMO the best bet is any big UFA retirement deal is going to lead to a team paying a player for past performance in the final year or two. Sometimes it doesn't, but the vast majority of the time it does regardless of the team or player. There's some reason to support the idea Panarin might be safer than others, but it's not ironclad.

 

[Leetch3]

Let him claim American citizenship and play for the US. Adam Banks style revenge.

given how good american buch was just imagine how good american panarin would be

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

What makes him successful is his finesse and vision. Those are two skills that are more likely to age well than say physicality or speed. This doesn't guarantee anything of course, but if we were taking bets on who would last well into their 30s, Panarin would be a pretty decent gamble.

UFA contracts are always gambles. IMO this one is a good gamble. It can very well still turn out poorly, but I believe the decision to sign him was the right one given the information that we currently have.

I agree with you about the games played thing people cite all the time. I don't see what it has to do with anything.

This sounds good, I'm not saying it's wrong. But how do we measure how much his game is predicated on finesse and vision? The only reason he's able to effectively use his vision and finesse might be because of his athletic abilities and once those abilities decline with age so will his ability to get the most out of those traits.

I disagree that it's a good gamble bc of where our team and prospects are at now but I've gone into major detail previously on this idea so I'll leave it there

I do get the games played thing...IF it was backed by something, anything to demonstrate that KHL players age better.

I mean maybe he will, but I think by the time the cap might become a problem it'll be much higher anyways. And it's not like Panarin is a slow power forward, I can't imagine he'll become a bad contract tbh. I woulda loved Panarin in Denver. Ya never know though.

I'd love it if there was something showing how playmakers age or power forwards age, etc

There is no answer. The logic is the KHL is less physical as evidenced by NHLers who were too weak or old to keep up here going there and playing well. The fact that there is some logic to the idea doesn't prove it of course.

All the monkey stuff is pretty silly. People think Panarin is a different case than most others we've been in this position with and many people have described why. You don't agree and then it's "delusional" and akin to pointing out a dancing monkey. Ok. Those are your opinions, not facts. Just as other's reasons why they think Panarin is a safer bet are opinions.

IMO the best bet is any big UFA retirement deal is going to lead to a team paying a player for past performance in the final year or two. Sometimes it doesn't, but the vast majority of the time it does regardless of the team or player. There's some reason to support the idea Panarin might be safer than others, but it's not ironclad.

There's also logic in saying that bodies naturally age in relatively the same way for the majority of human beings bc we all share 99.99999% exactly the same genes.
Some people present the KHL argument as if it is indisputable.

I don't sit here talking about advanced stats basically ever but I appreciate in depth research. I'm a f***ing nerd.

Yes. The monkey stuff is silly. That was for my own fun. I was being silly. It was also an accurate reflection of the way some people approach this discussion. Too many people. If you read my posts in this thread and ESPECIALLY in the other one, you will see I have met people halfway over and over and over and over in this discussion. I get disrespect, bullshit sarcasm, 1 line dismissals and outright insults in response. To respond the way certain people have, it makes me think there's a delusion/outright refusal to accept even a hint of opposition

In this post are quite a few people who had an actual discussion with me and I had one back.

Totally...100 percent...agreed.

Oh go fu- oops. I mean good....Good.

 

[aufheben]

Shame the Poly board is gone and we can't really talk about this

You can. This is hockey-related.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Exactly! No one has any answer. It's all just "Less NHL games! He'll last until he's in his mid 30s! Guys never start getting injured. Reflexes and speed don't degrade with age or anything. Look! Over there! Is that a monkey? Look at the monkey! Look at it dancing!"

I don't see...a monk-"Keep looking it'll be fine!!!!"

This doesn't apply to you but just in general, I have never seen this place as dishonest, overly delusional and/or aggressively in denial over any issue the way it is over the mere hint of a possibility that Panarin might become an albatross

Umm...there was a great winger by the name of Maurice Richard? Do you even read?

Bobby Hull?

We are fine.

 

[haveandare]

There's also logic in saying that bodies naturally age in relatively the same way for the majority of human beings bc we all share 99.99999% exactly the same genes.
Some people present the KHL argument as if it is indisputable.

I don't sit here talking about advanced stats basically ever but I appreciate in depth research. I'm a ****ing nerd.

Yes. The monkey stuff is silly. That was for my own fun. I was being silly. It was also an accurate reflection of the way some people approach this discussion. Too many people. If you read my posts in this thread and ESPECIALLY in the other one, you will see I have met people halfway over and over and over and over in this discussion. I get disrespect, bull**** sarcasm, 1 line dismissals and outright insults in response. To respond the way certain people have, it makes me think there's a delusion/outright refusal to accept even a hint of opposition

Yeah, bodies naturally age for sure. Yet some players are effective scorers past 30. It's not all that rare. The KHL argument is definitely disputable but there's also a logic to it.

Ultimately, some people anywhere on the internet will be disagreeable and ridiculous about pretty much any topic. Imo some people here being like that about this topic doesn't mean there's some unprecedented level of delusion around it, this is all very normal as frustrating as it can be.

 

[aufheben]

You're allowed to be completely wrong

Well...ok not completely. Im sure the number of games thing you said is probably accurate. I'm referring to the other half

You’re right, I forgot they were both Blackhawks at one point.

 

[Miamipuck]

Mama keeps the peanut butter in a secret drawer in the kitchen. She sneaks PB hits all day. She's hooked on the stuff. Mama's Little Secret.

I didn't think that poster was all that popular around the Rangers forum.

 

[Miamipuck]

Exactly! No one has any answer. It's all just "Less NHL games! He'll last until he's in his mid 30s! Guys never start getting injured. Reflexes and speed don't degrade with age or anything. Look! Over there! Is that a monkey? Look at the monkey! Look at it dancing!"

I don't see...a monk-"Keep looking it'll be fine!!!!"

This doesn't apply to you but just in general, I have never seen this place as dishonest, overly delusional and/or aggressively in denial over any issue the way it is over the mere hint of a possibility that Panarin might become an albatross

Look I didn't think the Rangers should be signing an 11.6 million dollar player at this point of the rebuild, well at the very least it wasn't advisable at this point, but what do I know?

You're correct, there's no way to answer whether the mileage/age issue with regard to Panarin is accurate or not. Anyone that says they could answer that question accurately is pretty much full of it or just flipping a coin.

He has a couple of things going for him that kind of make me hopeful it can possibly work for the majority if not all of the contract: The lack of wear and tear from other leagues is a good thing, the fact he keeps himself in great shape also bodes well. I think he's among the top 3 or 4 players this team has ever signed as a free agent at this stage of their career. Also, the fact that he took less to come here is a good thing. Now I am not disputing whether what he took was a significant amount ( I think it is) or insignificant amount, he did take less and the Rangers didn't trip over their dick to give it to him. Many of the players the Rangers signed have learned too late about the physical fitness aspect or that the Rangers weren't just a trough to drink out of. So yeah, there's also plenty of risk, as we have seen countless times with vast majority of free agent contracts the Rangers have given out, they end up with endless "wtf were they thinking" threads.


That said, well now he's here, so this time it's f***ing different man, so stop peeing on my Cheerio's!

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Yeah, bodies naturally age for sure. Yet some players are effective scorers past 30. It's not all that rare. The KHL argument is definitely disputable but there's also a logic to it.

Ultimately, some people anywhere on the internet will be disagreeable and ridiculous about pretty much any topic. Imo some people here being like that about this topic doesn't mean there's some unprecedented level of delusion around it, this is all very normal as frustrating as it can be.

Most of what you said is stuff I've been saying. Your conclusion is just a bit more of a half full one compared to my half empty is all.

It's more people acting like this than I can remember seeing around any topic which is why I said it seemed like such an unprecedented amount.

 

[TheDirtyH]

716 NHL games before he played for the Rangers beginning when he was 20 y/o.
198 KHL and 322 NHL games before he will play for the Rangers beginning when he was 20 y/o.

Even if the leagues were similarly grueling (doubtful considering travel, level of competition, # games in a season, and size of the ice surface) that's 2.5 seasons worth of GP that Panarin will not have as baggage that BR did. Add the fact that Brad was 31 when he signed here and Artemi will be 28 at the start of the season. Add the fact that while the sport generally is trending younger, that has not affected all players similarly. Elite talents have remained elite well into their 30s across the board. Ancient players are still excelling, albeit as top 6ers rather than superstars, but we're talking 38-42 y/o (Lundqvist, Chara, Williams, Thornton). Many players just last season had some of their best seasons to date as 30+ y/os: Toews, Kane, Wheeler, Crosby, Ovechkin, Giordano, Pavelski, Bergeron, Krejci, Radulov, Yandle, Zuccarelo, Kessel... While the data reveals a trend in productivity, when has it ever accurately predicted the career arch of any individual player. Elite talent (ppg forwards, #1 defensemen, vezina-conversation goaltenders) has flourished of late as 30-35 y/os. Because while the league is trending younger, it is also trending lighter, smaller, faster, and higher-scoring. Moreover, younger players are taking up more minutes, scoring more from the beginning, and taking a lot of attention away from the success that the best players of the last decade and a half are still playing at elite levels well into their 14-15th seasons. 2 of the top 5 scores were 30+. 2/5 goal leaders (including the winner) were 30+. 3/5 norris finalists (including the winner and runner up). 3/5 vezina finalists (including the winner).

It is as pointless to assume Panarin will fail to produce through the length of his contract as to assume he will. To say there isn't ample evidence to suggest he could — at least as much as suggests he couldn't — speculates further than we should be comfortable and without real ground to stand on. There might be three players at his position better than Panarin right now. That's a category of player that general trends do not tend to make the best measures for. Point in case: two of those players players are 31 and 33, respectively.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

You’re right

Cant take it back. Already framed it

"But the rest of it-"

Shhhhh shshshsh.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

716 NHL games before he played for the Rangers beginning when he was 20 y/o.
198 KHL and 322 NHL games before he will play for the Rangers beginning when he was 20 y/o.

Even if the leagues were similarly grueling (doubtful considering travel, level of competition, # games in a season, and size of the ice surface) that's 2.5 seasons worth of GP that Panarin will not have as baggage that BR did. Add the fact that Brad was 31 when he signed here and Artemi will be 28 at the start of the season. Add the fact that while the sport generally is trending younger, that has not affected all players similarly. Elite talents have remained elite well into their 30s across the board. Ancient players are still excelling, albeit as top 6ers rather than superstars, but we're talking 38-42 y/o (Lundqvist, Chara, Williams, Thornton). Many players just last season had some of their best seasons to date as 30+ y/os: Toews, Kane, Wheeler, Crosby, Ovechkin, Giordano, Pavelski, Bergeron, Krejci, Radulov, Yandle, Zuccarelo, Kessel... While the data reveals a trend in productivity, when has it ever accurately predicted the career arch of any individual player. Elite talent (ppg forwards, #1 defensemen, vezina-conversation goaltenders) has flourished of late as 30-35 y/os. Because while the league is trending younger, it is also trending lighter, smaller, faster, and higher-scoring. Moreover, younger players are taking up more minutes, scoring more from the beginning, and taking a lot of attention away from the success that the best players of the last decade and a half are still playing at elite levels well into their 14-15th seasons. 2 of the top 5 scores were 30+. 2/5 goal leaders (including the winner) were 30+. 3/5 norris finalists (including the winner and runner up). 3/5 vezina finalists (including the winner).

It is as pointless to assume Panarin will fail to produce through the length of his contract as to assume he will. To say there isn't ample evidence to suggest he could — at least as much as suggests he couldn't — speculates further than we should be comfortable and without real ground to stand on. There might be three players at his position better than Panarin right now. That's a category of player that general trends do not tend to make the best measures for. Point in case: two of those players players are 31 and 33, respectively.

You have a few small strawmen in there if you're referring to things you think i said. You might've been speaking generally on a few things.

I also think it's not pointless. If you're the execs then the future of the franchise depends on being able to assess if hell fall off. Being as invested as we are, it makes sense to discuss it. Especially in the off season.

Unless they have a crystal ball that they didnt have all throughout the 00s and early 10s then were all just crossing fingers. It looks nice to list a dozen guys who produce late but we all know there are some guys. We just cant predict who will last or why. We can only say that someone will last.

Richards is irrelevant. It was a name I picked out of a hat to make a point about age. I listed several names bc its not about him.

 

[TheDirtyH]

You have a few small strawmen in there if you're referring to things you think i said. You might've been speaking generally on a few things.

I also think it's not pointless. If you're the execs then the future of the franchise depends on being able to assess if hell fall off. Being as invested as we are, it makes sense to discuss it. Especially in the off season.

Unless they have a crystal ball that they didnt have all throughout the 00s and early 10s then were all just crossing fingers. It looks nice to list a dozen guys who produce late but we all know there are some guys. We just cant product who will last or why. We can only say that someone will last.

Richards is irrelevant. It was a name I picked out of a hat to make a point about age. I listed several names bc itd not about him.

I was just speaking generally, for the record. But on what you're saying now:

1) Who is they in this case? Gorton? Drury? Davidson? Are you holding our GM of the last two years accountable for signings our organization made twenty years ago? If your point is that maybe it won't work out, that's a very legit thing to say. It's inarguable. It's also not saying very much.

2) I'm not just listing. And it's actually pretty clear the characteristics these players share. ie. at 28, what kind of players were they? Where were they ranking in their positions across the league? What kind of impact were they making? Does it disregard the possibility that Panarin will age terribly and suck fairly soon? I'm pretty sure I said explicitly that's not the case. What crystal ball are you looking at? What are you going off of to say that this isn't as substantial as evidence in this kind of predictive work as what you're privy to or thinking primarily about?

It seems like you're evidence is that the Rangers and UFAs don't mix. So, If your point is that the Rangers are a cursed organization that rots UFAs as a long standing atonement of biblical proportion for trading Brian Leetch, then what can I say to that?