Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[Gillings]

I think you're 100% wrong on this, nobody does that.

No body does what? Kick a guy with his skates? Well it just happened.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I saw the video and it changed my mind, there is no way that is not intentional, yea, he's getting picked, but not hit, and his skate gets in the neck area of a guy who is what 6 feet tall, that skate gets above 5'6 feet while the guys other leg is on the ice, that doesn't happen by accident....that's brutal.

 

[LGBlues]

OK, so I'm a Canadian lawyer - though obviously that means I'm qualified in Canada (Alberta) and not the UK. At this sort of level Canadian criminal law is very similar to UK criminal law (we inherited the same law).

So the grounds to arrest are that police must have "reasonable and probable grounds" to believe an offence was committed. So if UK police are arresting the person responsible (curious the OP's article doesn't mention the name, although it's even listed on Johnson's Wiki page) they have more than just a suspicion that a crime was committed.

So the allegation is manslaughter. In order for the Crown to prove manslaughter, the Crown has to prove that the Accused person intended to commit the act - that is the Accused intended to kick or strike Johnson with his skate. If it was a pure accident then no charge is warranted.

But what the Crown doesn't need to prove is an intent to kill. If there is an intent to kill that is murder, not manslaughter. It sadly happens way more often than you think - someone punches another person in the face, they fall down, hit their head, get a brain bleed (or whatever) and die. That's manslaughter.

There is definitely no exception or exclusion to things that happen on ice during a hockey game. There are certainly examples of charges being laid in the past for on-ice incidents - the Todd Bertuzzi - Steve Moore example is perhaps the most famous, but certainly not the only one.

That being said you have to remember the burden of proof. That is - the Crown must prove the offence beyond a reasonable doubt. In this case the sequence is captured on video, so the facts themselves are not in question. In law, we call that the actus reus. The question for any judge however is one of mens rea - what was the Accused's intent or mindset? Did he have a "guilty mind"?

I haven't seen the video. Quite frankly, I don't want to see the video. I've seen enough shitty things in my job I don't need to seek out more. But that's going to be the question - did the Accused intend to kick Johnson with his skate? And in particular - can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to kick Johnson with his skate?

Does England have involuntary manslaughter - I would not think intent is an element they have to prove for involuntary.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Too much noise, any way you look at it.

I’m not looking to rush to Petgrave’s defense, but others sound as though they’ve found interesting reasons to suggest burying him under a prison is the only way to proceed.

The play is sus as hell, but pulling deliberate malice out of that when one can find 10 instances of high-skates images in this thread alone doesn’t sit right.

Problem I have, is almost all the other high skates are from the results of a hit, or a missed hit, this happened while the guy was skating, and being picked from making a hit, and he still got his leg that high...not good

 

[UseYourHedman]

Man. I think we were all so much better off when we didn't have this anonymous and impersonal way of interacting with everyone, and every opinion, in the entire world, whenever we liked, and however we liked. With zero consequences and in full view of everyone and anyone that cared to listen in.

Gonna take some time to adjust to this way of being. Generational time.

I've brought up this question with a lot of friends: Is the internet mostly a good thing or mostly a bad thing? Tough to answer when one takes the time to really ponder the question

 

[authentic]

Good. Hopefully there is a conviction

Just curious what makes you feel this way when it was an accident?

 

[authentic]

No body does what? Kick a guy with his skates? Well it just happened.

I remember Semenko hoofing someone with his skates during a scrum in the 80s. I haven’t seen this video yet but as far as I’ve read it was a freak accident. Is this not the case?

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Just curious what makes you feel this way when it was an accident?

Was it an accident? That is what they will have to determine.

No body does what? Kick a guy with his skates? Well it just happened.

Veleno did.

 

[TK 421]

Just curious what makes you feel this way when it was an accident?

What part was an accident? Define it because the problem is that while the death was almost certainly unintentional, his leg motion looks very much intentional so you can't just call it "an accident" as if it's just some "whoopsie, my bad!" He looks like he intended to use his leg to impede Johnson, whether he knew this would be the result or not is irrelevant because the motion itself was not accidental it was intentional or at least appears to be.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I remember Semenko hoofing someone with his skates during a scrum in the 80s. I haven’t seen this video yet but as far as I’ve read it was a freak accident. Is this not the case?

No scrum....both guys standing straight......absolutely not the same

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Man. I think we were all so much better off when we didn't have this anonymous and impersonal way of interacting with everyone, and every opinion, in the entire world, whenever we liked, and however we liked. With zero consequences and in full view of everyone and anyone that cared to listen in.

Gonna take some time to adjust to this way of being. Generational time.

Are you saying my opinion is invalid because I use an anonymous handle? That's a dark way of seeing things. I'd agree if you were talking about trolling or slander or other vile stuff the internet brings out of people but that's not even allowed here. Address my opinions based on the content, not my anonymous status. I'm happy to talk to you in person if you feel like DMing me to exchange personal info. My opinions will be the same, I promise. Lemme know.

I’m sort of torn on this.

I think his intention was to impede Johnson, interfere with his movement. His skate coming up and essentially slicing him like an 80’s slasher film was of course not what he was trying to accomplish.

That said, with him trying to interfere, and it killing him; it sort of does mean manslaughter… like by definition.

Petegrave is also a psychopath on the ice. It’d be like if Matt Cooke killed someone.

You're not torn at all really. You described manslaughter and you agree it's manslaughter. You've formed an opinion. Nothing to be torn about.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Too much noise, any way you look at it.

I’m not looking to rush to Petgrave’s defense, but others sound as though they’ve found interesting reasons to suggest burying him under a prison is the only way to proceed.

The play is sus as hell, but pulling deliberate malice out of that when one can find 10 instances of high-skates images in this thread alone doesn’t sit right.

Manslaughter is not deliberate malice though. It takes a deliberate act, that's all. No matter what the intent was, if it results in a death, it's manslaughter. Deliberate malice would be murder. No one thinks that about this incident as far as I know.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Why? Because crying victim works. I'm being attacked therefore what I did doesn't matter why do you think people fake crimes against themselves.

When have you seen Petgrave “crying victim” even once? When have you seen him say anything about this?

I’m sort of torn on this.

I think his intention was to impede Johnson, interfere with his movement. His skate coming up and essentially slicing him like an 80’s slasher film was of course not what he was trying to accomplish.

That said, with him trying to interfere, and it killing him; it sort of does mean manslaughter… like by definition.

Petegrave is also a psychopath on the ice. It’d be like if Matt Cooke killed someone.

It doesn’t mean manslaughter by definition… like at all.

Manslaughter is not deliberate malice though. It takes a deliberate act, that's all. No matter what the intent was, if it results in a death, it's manslaughter. Deliberate malice would be murder. No one thinks that about this incident as far as I know.

This is not true even by definition.

 

[5 Minute Major]

Reading over this thread and Twitter has me completely blown away. How can anyone watch that play and, with any level of finality, claim it was a complete accident? People are throwing around the whole "anyone who disagrees doesn't watch hockey" schtick, claiming it was just a "freak accident" and it is grossly irresponsible to suggest otherwise (even dragging this whole thing into the perpetual culture war nonsense). Many are rendering a verdict on the play without even having watched the clip, which is just mind-numbing.

I've played highly competitive hockey my entire life and have watched the NHL since I was old enough to walk - I have never once seen a play like that ever. We keep hearing "it happens every game" and, yet, every single video example of a player's skate flying above waist-level has been from a hip check or a player getting upended from behind. When a player is tripped, their skates will fly in the opposite direction of their momentum. It makes absolutely no sense for a player to send a skate flying forward in that situation, especially not at neck height. And Petgrave was turning in toward Johnson when the incident occurred, so he was leaning his upper body weight away from his skates.

I would never propose that the result was intentional but the action that led to the result is, at the very least, grossly negligent and reckless. I refuse to believe that, after watching this video frame-by-frame numerous times, this was a "freak accident" completely outside of Petrave's control.

A man with common sense.

 

[ITM]

You quoted me after I quoted another poster who did.

My comment addressed part of your quote. I am not the other poster. Like the implications you made, your inference is your responsibility.

So given your response to me, who should and shouldn’t be participating in threads per your implied standard?

Should you? I appreciate the Like, but I’d like something else. Perhaps that quote I asked for as a starter?

 

[Petey O]

Arresting this player achieves what? What a loser prosecutor.

Justice for Johnson's death.

 

[Aphid]

Reminds me of that play years back where Chara purposefully ran Pacioretty in to the stantion and people claimed it was a "hockey play". I'd hate to see what line these people who claim it's a hockey play draw where it isn't a hockey play anymore. You can't do much worse on the ice than this.

 

[jmwc95]

I’ve seen the video and believe it’s worth investigating by the police.

I also saw this the other day, and I’m glad there wasn’t an accidental skate to a vulnerable area, so skates up high can happen accidentally:

View attachment 768098

Pettersson wasn’t trying to throw a spinning back heel, so there wouldn’t have been enough force to sever his carotid artery on that play anyway. Worry not.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

That was an intentional leg kick. He probably didn’t mean to kill him but that’s manslaughter. I’m sure drunk drivers don’t intend to kill anyone when they get behind the wheel either.

Yeah and last I checked, kicking someone is not a hockey play.

 

[ChrisProngersEYE]

Exactly. Absolutely ridiculous someone is being arrested for this.

Unfortunate freak accident that no one ever wants to see or be involved in; in any way. Dude accidentally killed someone while playing a sport where giant blades are attached to your feet and one of the main objects of the sport is to hit your opponent as hard as you can while going as fast as you can.

Enough pain has been caused here already, no need to destroy another's life over it when it was not deliberate. Imagine being involved in a freak accident like that, feeling all the emotions and guilt and then have key board warriors online calling you a murder.

I don't feel this is an issue being driven by concerned fans...no they understand hockey....the fact that this story is gaining so much traction is a deliberate and organized effort.

Now before I say this, know I'm normally a very conservative person, however articles about BLACK hockey players killing WHITE hockey players is not how Hockey writers or fans would ever describe what happened. These conversations being observed on twitter are bots with a organized agenda .

For anyone whom has read The US Military Psyop's handbook that is freely available on the internet in .pdf form a( google search away) explains that "if you lead a horse to water and it refuses to drink, the next day prior to bringing the horse that won't drink down, bring two horses that are trained to drink. When you bring the horse that won't drink down and it see's the horses trained to drink, it will also drink. (para-phrased)

Now bring bots and AI into the mix.....

It is how they influence you and have been for over a decade now. That is why this story is becoming such a big issue, because there is a motive behind it, along with the many other narratives they condition you into believing daily as well.

Don't fall for the pathetic attempt to stir racial tension these stories are not coming from NHL fans and people around the world who respect hockey. They are coming from someone with an agenda that is in none of our best interests and has probably never watched a hockey game in their life.

This looks like a freak accident to me, it sucks and is horrible but as hockey fans let's not let the story turn into a weapon of political agenda when we know it was a freak accident.

I was going to post some links but use google and you'll find the articles and articles about the articles. I simply do not want to make this post anymore political than it is. You can see the bots discussing it on twitter.

My point is hockey fans know this is a time to mourn, heal; and learn, not let this situation become a political narrative of agenda driven micro-hypersensitization.

 

[thaman8765678]

Unfortunate freak accident that no one ever wants to see or be involved in; in any way. Dude accidentally killed someone while playing a sport where giant blades are attached to your feet and one of the main objects of the sport is to hit your opponent as hard as you can while going as fast as you can.

Enough pain has been caused here already, no need to destroy another's life over it when it was not deliberate. Imagine being involved in a freak accident like that, feeling all the emotions and guilt and then have key board warriors online calling you a murder.

I don't feel this is an issue being driven by concerned fans...no they understand hockey....the fact that this story is gaining so much traction is a deliberate and organized effort.

Now before I say this, know I'm normally a very conservative person, however articles about BLACK hockey players killing WHITE hockey players is not how Hockey writers or fans would ever describe what happened. These conversations being observed on twitter are bots with a organized agenda .

For anyone whom has read The US Military Psyop's handbook that is freely available on the internet in .pdf form a( google search away) explains that "if you lead a horse to water and it refuses to drink, the next day prior to bringing the horse that won't drink down, bring two horses that are trained to drink. When you bring the horse that won't drink down and it see's the horses trained to drink, it will also drink. (para-phrased)

Now bring bots and AI into the mix.....

It is how they influence you and have been for over a decade now. That is why this story is becoming such a big issue, because there is a motive behind it, along with the many other narratives they condition you into believing daily as well.

Don't fall for the pathetic attempt to stir racial tension these stories are not coming from NHL fans and people around the world who respect hockey. They are coming from someone with an agenda that is in none of our best interests and has probably never has watched a hockey game in their life.

This looks like a freak accident to me, it sucks and is horrible but as hockey fans let's not let the story turn into a weapon of political agenda when we know it was a freak accident.

I was going to post some links but use google and you'll find the articles and articles about the articles. I simply do not want to make this post anymore political than it is. You can see the bots discussing it on twitter.

My point is hockey fans know this is a time to mourn, heal; and learn, not let this situation become a political narrative of agenda driven micro-hypersensitization.

Nice try, but my opinion of it not being a hockey play and being wreckless was made before I even realized one player involved is black.

Maybe some people have another motive, but not all.

 

[ChrisProngersEYE]

Nice try, but my opinion of it not being a hockey play and being wreckless was made before I even realized one player involved is black.

Maybe some people have another motive, but not all.

I don't see how you look at that and say he was in control of his body the entire time? Genuinely explain your perspective to me because I'm trying to understand how what you see and I see is different?

Are there allegations that premeditation occurred before the game? Was there a plan to do this? Prior history of the players fighting?

or did he simply make the decision to move in a dramatic way that hurt someone?

To me it clearly looks like he is hit and loses control and did not respond to it well or was bracing for more impact.

 

[Canada4Gold]

(just in case it's not clear I'm agreeing with you here)

So I had a case years ago. It's this guys birthday, he goes out to the bar. After the bar closes he invites a bunch of people over to his house. One of the people he invites over takes a decorative sword off of the wall and is playing with it. The homeowner takes the sword from him, pokes the guy with the point of the sword in the chest and tells him to leave his stuff alone.

Nobody thinks anything of it at the moment until the guy collapses 10 minutes later. The sword was really sharp, went into his chest, nicked his heart. He was rushed to hospital, almost died.

In this case the Accused could have been guilty for the offence of "aggravated assault". If the guy had died he 100% would be guilty of manslaughter. He intended to use force against the guy without his consent, and is responsible for the consequences, even though there was 100% no question he didn't intend to actually hurt the guy.

If the police interview the accused and he explains that he was trying hit Johnson, but prior to contact he got impeded by another player and in the process of falling he wanted to stick his leg out there to get a piece of Johnson to slow him down. Technically a penalty but something that guys do all the time in the course of a hockey game, often going uncalled. Would that be enough for a Manslaughter charge to stick? He had the intent to make contact with with Johnson with his leg, but obviously no intention of contact with his skate blade, or with Johnson's neck area.

I think that's as far as this could be reasonably argued. He stuck his leg out there to impede him with horrible consequences because of how off balance he was. If he admits that much would that be enough to meet manslaughter requirements?

 

[BagHead]

I will let the courts decide on Petgrave's guilt or lack thereof on the charge of manslaughter rather than pretend I know what the decision should be. I have neither enough knowledge of the law, nor the desire to make that judgement of another person.

If I pretend that nobody got hurt and only look at it from a hockey standpoint, I didn't like the hit. Still assuming nobody was hurt, I'd say it might have been an accident, or might have been accidentally on purpose. It definitely looked weird to me, but accidents are weird by their nature, so who knows?

 

[Petey O]

No charges have been laid, so no "professional prosecutor" has seen things differently (your words)

I replied the way I did because someone mentioned an 'idiot prosecutor'. My point still stands. It is not 'cut and dry obviously not intentional'.