Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[HTFN]

Just no, a guy going down to block a shot and getting the shot in the throat is not even remotely manslaughter. There are risks on the ice that are covered by lawyers and insurance.

The case of Johnson.. petgrave was not hipped checked resulting in his skates going in the air and clipping someone, he wasn’t even checked, he left his skates with the intention to kick Johnson and both of his skates made contact directly in the neck just like you’d see in wrestling.

I think you're 100% wrong on this, nobody does that.

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

That’s more or less my point too. Lots of people saying it’s definitely this or that.. on top of using bad examples

Welcome to HF

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So is intentionally kicking an opponent with one’s skate an accepted part of hockey? Clearly it is not. So the question then is did it happen accidentally or was the kick intentional, even if the location and outcome weren’t? If the latter then that would indeed be a criminal act.

The difficult part is determining whether he "attempted to kick" or "attempted to trip". Sticking out your leg to get a piece of someone trying to get past you doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to kick them.

Now obviously "tripping" is going to be a hard sell considering the height where Petgrave's skate ended up, but there's where the argument of whether or not there was contact with that other player comes in, and how much that affected the trajectory of where the leg was originally aimed versus where it ended up going.

I'm torn on this. On one hand, you can't just be reckless just because it's on the rink and you think that gives you carte blanche to do borderline stuff. On the other hand, it creates a slippery slope for a whole bunch of "dirty" plays that if they result in death (or even permanent injury), would they now be considered for criminal prosecution?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I've always found it perplexing that people accept that athletes can get away with assault, etc., in their sport. Exactly when does it cross over to criminality? Both McSorely and Bertuzzi were charged and found guilty so there is precedent for holding athletes accountable. But what about a thousand other incidents that were just considered part of the sport? Remember Tie Domi's outright sucker punch on Ulf Samuelsson? It really doesn't matter that most of the league and fans were happy to see it, isn't that assault? Who gets to decide whether it's "just part of the game"? Just one example of many I could name.

 

[yeaher]

The wheels of justice turning. People saying this guy Petgrave the victim, why? He killed someone directly, whether it was an accident or not who knows but we don't feel sorry for people who stab people in the throat with knives and kill people

 

[JaegerDice]

Boxers literally been punched to death.


It’s an inherent risk of playing a game with foot knives. Or racers getting into a crash because someone tried to recklessly (everything about that sport is reckless) overtake, etc.


It’s very much a shit happens incident, anyone facing some sort of liability should be the leagues for not having neck protection mandatory when it’s available. Players are thinking about so much so fast, nobody except in hindsight is thinking “oh yea his neck will get cut”


I hadn’t read the whole thread because this conversation always gets nasty, but it’s important to point out if someone missed it that being arrested in the UK legal system isn’t quite the same thing as in the US.


There’s still a distinct possibility he won’t be charged

There’s an inherent threat in crossing the street, that doesnt mean we say ‘hey, shoulda seen it coming pal’ in response to a hit and run.

Im not arguing the guy belongs in jail, Im simply saying ‘it happened during a hockey game’ cannot be a catch-all defense to any incident. I want an investigation, not a witch-hunt.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

The difficult part is determining whether he "attempted to kick" or "attempted to trip". Sticking out your leg to get a piece of someone trying to get past you doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to kick them.

Now obviously "tripping" is going to be a hard sell considering the height where Petgrave's skate ended up, but there's where the argument of whether or not there was contact with that other player comes in, and how much that affected the trajectory of where the leg was originally aimed versus where it ended up going.

I'm torn on this. On one hand, you can't just be reckless just because it's on the rink and you think that gives you carte blanche to do borderline stuff. On the other hand, it creates a slippery slope for a whole bunch of "dirty" plays that if they result in death (or even permanent injury), would they now be considered for criminal prosecution?

"Sticking out your leg to get a piece of someone trying to get past you doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to kick them."

I don't think that's how it works. Just because I looked at my phone while driving doesn't mean I meant to run you over either. Do I get a pass? And I think he intentionally stuck his leg out (and up for that matter) and a guy died. To me that's textbook manslaughter (assuming I'm right but there are other opinions in here).

 

[Dessloch]

I finally had to stomach up and watch the video: it's really, really bad, but I don't see intent to do anything there. He's going fast and gets stopped by contact with another guy and eats shit, I don't see a deliberate kick anywhere in there.

Well we just had someone make a conclusive statement saying the video does not show conclusively Petgrave made any contact with any player before hitting Johnson with his skate - but he claims it conclusive it was an intented karate move by Petgrave. So we cant even agree on whether Petgrave got clipped or touched by the poor video footage.

 

[Yukon Joe]

This does not surprise me all that much. Note that if you merely intend to punch someone and they fall in a bad way and then die, it would also not be called an 'accident' even if there was no intent to kill, only intent to harm.

(just in case it's not clear I'm agreeing with you here)

So I had a case years ago. It's this guys birthday, he goes out to the bar. After the bar closes he invites a bunch of people over to his house. One of the people he invites over takes a decorative sword off of the wall and is playing with it. The homeowner takes the sword from him, pokes the guy with the point of the sword in the chest and tells him to leave his stuff alone.

Nobody thinks anything of it at the moment until the guy collapses 10 minutes later. The sword was really sharp, went into his chest, nicked his heart. He was rushed to hospital, almost died.

In this case the Accused could have been guilty for the offence of "aggravated assault". If the guy had died he 100% would be guilty of manslaughter. He intended to use force against the guy without his consent, and is responsible for the consequences, even though there was 100% no question he didn't intend to actually hurt the guy.

 

[HTFN]

The difficult part is determining whether he "attempted to kick" or "attempted to trip". Sticking out your leg to get a piece of someone trying to get past you doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to kick them.

Now obviously "tripping" is going to be a hard sell considering the height where Petgrave's skate ended up, but there's where the argument of whether or not there was contact with that other player comes in, and how much that affected the trajectory of where the leg was originally aimed versus where it ended up going.

I'm torn on this. On one hand, you can't just be reckless just because it's on the rink and you think that gives you carte blanche to do borderline stuff. On the other hand, it creates a slippery slope for a whole bunch of "dirty" plays that if they result in death (or even permanent injury), would they now be considered for criminal prosecution?

Personally, I don't think anyone who says he intentionally kicked has ever cow tipped before.

Catching a nasty edge going backwards sends your feet straight the f*** up in the air, I've been sliced down the arm in a free skate by someone doing exactly that. No, Petgrave wasn't going backwards, but it looks like he caught some resistance and his momentum just sent his ass in a weird direction while Johnson was cutting across the ice.

Sucks, is easily the ugliest thing I've ever seen on the ice, that was absolutely brutal to watch, but now that I've finally watched it I don't see what other people are seeing and Petgrave didn't look like he was even trying to injure anyone, let alone kill them.

 

[theVladiator]

UK law is simple in this regard.

Murder = with intent or premeditation
Manslaughter = with no intent

That’s it.

It’s not like the US or certain states with different degrees of murder or classifications for murder/manslaughter.

What I am seeing, there are two varieties of manslaughter. The voluntary manslaughter is pretty much murder, but with some diminished capacity (passion). So

Murder/voluntary manslaughter = with intent
Involuntary manslaughter = with no intent

Homicide: Murder, manslaughter, infanticide and causing or allowing the death or serious injury of a child or vulnerable adult | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[HTFN]

Well we just had someone make a conclusive statement saying the video does not show conclusively Petgrave made any contact with any player before hitting Johnson with his skate - but he claims it conclusive it was an intented karate move by Petgrave. So we cant even agree on whether Petgrave got clipped or touched by the poor video footage.

I mean, the footage I saw wasn't spectacular, but it looks like Petgrave isn't even marking Johnson at the speed he's coming in, he's going with whoever is in front of him. At the point of contact it sure looks like his whole lower body gets stopped and his face keeps going forward, and after that, well, disaster.

If Petgrave wanted to stop Johnson, based on where he's coming from he probably could have just hit him.

 

[JadedLeaf]

You're missing a step here.

If he intended to kick Johnson, it's 2nd degree murder. If he intended to kill him, it's first degree murder. The manslaughter cases can always be a bit tricky, but from my understanding if he moved his leg towards the person with intentionality, it's manslaughter.

We probably shouldn't be arguing with an actual lawyer on these things lol

 

[Yukon Joe]

UK law is simple in this regard.

Murder = with intent or premeditation
Manslaughter = with no intent

That’s it.

It’s not like the US or certain states with different degrees of murder or classifications for murder/manslaughter.

The intent here though is "intent to kill".

For manslaughter you still have to intend to do the action you did. In this case the CPS would have to prove that the Accused intended to kick or strike Johnson with his skate in order to prove manslaughter. It's just they don't need to prove intent to kill.

An accident is just that - an accident.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I've always found it perplexing that people accept that athletes can get away with assault, etc., in their sport. Exactly when does it cross over to criminality? Both McSorely and Bertuzzi were charged and found guilty so there is precedent for holding athletes accountable. But what about a thousand other incidents that were just considered part of the sport? Remember Tie Domi's outright sucker punch on Ulf Samuelsson? It really doesn't matter that most of the league and fans were happy to see it, isn't that assault? Who gets to decide whether it's "just part of the game"? Just one example of many I could name.

There are three levels of decisoin making.

1. It's up to police whether to lay a charge.
2. It's up to the Prosecutors (in this case the UK's Crown Prosecution Service) whether to prosecute the charge; and
3. It's up the judge or jury whether to convict or not

I totally agree these are not easy questions to answer.

We probably shouldn't be arguing with an actual lawyer on these things lol

So first of all you just have to take my word I'm a lawyer. Other than the fact I hope I'm making sense I'm offering no other proof of that.

But second of all - it's a message board. Have at it.

 

[Yorkshire Leaf]

UK law is simple in this regard.

Murder = with intent or premeditation
Manslaughter = with no intent

That’s it.

It’s not like the US or certain states with different degrees of murder or classifications for murder/manslaughter.

Not strictly true. For a start there isn’t UK law, it’s English Law (Scotland has its own distinct legal system).
Secondly there is first and second degree murder in English Law as well as voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.

 

[ORRFForever]

UK law is simple in this regard.

Murder = with intent or premeditation
Manslaughter = with no intent

That’s it.

It’s not like the US or certain states with different degrees of murder or classifications for murder/manslaughter.

I think you, I and the English government agree...

If there are charges, manslaughter is accurate.

 

[Barnum]

The intent here though is "intent to kill".

For manslaughter you still have to intend to do the action you did. In this case the CPS would have to prove that the Accused intended to kick or strike Johnson with his skate in order to prove manslaughter. It's just they don't need to prove intent to kill.

An accident is just that - an accident.

My wife’s father killed her mother. They were having a bad fight. Her father grabbed a knife off the worktop/counter and turned around stabbing her mother in the heart. To my American brain, that’s murder with intent and it would been murder in the US or Canada too.

The UK charged him with manslaughter because the police/courts didn’t think he had intent, so manslaughter was the charge…(he served 3 years for doing that). This happened after the 1994 law revision on murder/manslaughter.

It’s simple, of you didn’t premeditate a murder, than it’s manslaughter. f***ed up as it is, it’s how the England does it.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Do they have a history of using their skates and sticks as weapons?

Would you like to show me his “history of using his stick and skates as weapons”?

Or do you mean that one time he made shin on knee contact? You know, that thing called kneeing we see 100 times a year?

Or the spearing penalty that we also see countless times a year in the NHL?

Which is it?

 

[Barnum]

Not strictly true. For a start there isn’t UK law, it’s English Law (Scotland has its own distinct legal system).
Secondly there is first and second degree murder in English Law as well as voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.

Apologies….I didn’t think of that. Correct…English law, not UK law.

Thanks.

 

[Cancuks]

It's a sad situation but the reality is the player was reckless and someone died because of it. Just because he's playing a game doesn't mean he's immune to any kind of consequences for his actions.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

"Sticking out your leg to get a piece of someone trying to get past you doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to kick them."

I don't think that's how it works. Just because I looked at my phone while driving doesn't mean I meant to run you over either. Do I get a pass? And I think he intentionally stuck his leg out (and up for that matter) and a guy died. To me that's textbook manslaughter (assuming I'm right but there are other opinions in here).

I don't know why we keep equating this to these driving analogies.

As for the tripping point, let's use common sense. Anyone attempting to trip an opponent isn't trying to kick them. That's like saying trying to stick lift someone and the stick rides up and smashes them in the eye is also the equivalent of attempting to spear someone in the eye.

We see players stick out their leg all the time to try and impede an opponent. It's a common hockey play, even if against the rules. Those aren't all attempts to kick an opponent. So why would we automatically label what Petgrave did as attempting to kick rather than attempting to trip (if it's believe that he was just trying to get a piece of Johnson but him making contact with the other player caused the leg to go up way higher).

 

[Filthy Dangles]

I've always found it perplexing that people accept that athletes can get away with assault, etc., in their sport. Exactly when does it cross over to criminality? Both McSorely and Bertuzzi were charged and found guilty so there is precedent for holding athletes accountable. But what about a thousand other incidents that were just considered part of the sport? Remember Tie Domi's outright sucker punch on Ulf Samuelsson? It really doesn't matter that most of the league and fans were happy to see it, isn't that assault? Who gets to decide whether it's "just part of the game"? Just one example of many I could name.

What's your point? How are any of the incidents you listed comparable to this one?

The intent and recklessness in the ones you listed are simply much more evident....

 

[nbwingsfan]

So if the guy says it was an accident and it was just a natural reaction to falling down, how do you argue against that?

Exactly, you can’t. There won’t be charges.

People can watch as many slow motion videos of this as you like, but all he has to say is he clipped a skate, lost balance, etc and there’s no way you can say for certain he tries to “kick” him like so many here are doing so.

 

[Jets4Life]

It’s an inherent risk of playing a game with foot knives. Or racers getting into a crash because someone tried to recklessly (everything about that sport is reckless) overtake, etc.


It’s very much a shit happens incident, anyone facing some sort of liability should be the leagues for not having neck protection mandatory when it’s available. Players are thinking about so much so fast, nobody except in hindsight is thinking “oh yea his neck will get cut”

I've played hockey for years, and watched hockey all my life. I have never seen anyone kick their leg up like Petgrave did to impede on an opposing player. There is a video of him doing this in the OHL as well. This is not how one plays the game.

Accidents happen, but it's incredibly rare to see someone raise his skate deliberately to stop an opposing player from advancing.