Around the NHL (Part XVIII) - Tankiest tank to have ever tanked

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Oduya is better defender thus why he had 3.35M cap hit

Are you saying since Leddy is making 5.5M he is > Hjalmarsson and almost as good as Seabrook?[/QUOTE]

Holy out of context reach Batman!

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Looking at non-Leddy news

I think Habs in end will regret trading Sekac for DSP. Sekac already has a strong all around game and IMO has higher upside

Reality though is Habs coach hated him so they really were never going to have him reach that potential

 

[AmericanDream]

Oduya is better defender thus why he had 3.35M cap hit

Are you saying since Leddy is making 5.5M he is > Hjalmarsson and almost as good as Seabrook?

No Oduya is more inline with Leddy or at least used to be skillwise...hence the comparison..always blowing things out of proportion. .

 

[Hawkaholic]

Looking non-Leddy news

I think Habs in end will regret trading Sekac for DSP. Sekac already has a strong all around game and IMO has higher upside

Reality though is Habs coach hated him so they really were never going to have him reach that potential

DSP is more of what they need, and Sekac is less of what they need. Thought it was a good trade for both.

 

[AmericanDream]

I imagine you are the guy I just had a 20min convo with on twitter.

Hammer is great, but he is not good enough to carry an entire pairing all year long against the best every night in the NHL. Very few, if any Dman can do that.

They work well together, chemistry is HUGE, whether you agree or not. Oduya had a great 2 years, 2013 and 2013-14, and if not for his injury that hampered him throughout the entire summer, I think he would have been pretty good again.

Fact is, we could get a better haul for our 5th Dman than our 4th Dman and our 4th Dman was more important to the team success.

IMO, Leddy wouldn't be able to handle the best in the West every night, as he could barely handle the sheltered mins he got.

when it comes to coach Q Leddy or Oduya I simply will not listen to anything you have to say other than that you're pretty cool in my book

 

[dbridge]

I don't get why everyone is so up in arms about the Leddy trade. He was a promising but underperforming d-man who crumpled in the playoffs. He received an increased role with a better D partner on a team with lower expectations and a coach who better fits his style, his performance improves accordingly, and he gets paid a figure that the Hawks could not afford anyways. They received a very good D prospect in exchange (someone I'd value as a late 1st rounder or so as an equivalent). If Leddy received a bigger role in Chicago (say taking Oduya's spot alongside Hjalmarsson) and if he develops similarly to how he did on Long Island this year, he gets a better return, but probably not significantly better. If he doesn't improve and he's still a shaky-confidence 3rd pairing d-man, he might not return something of Pokka's value in the next off-season.

They acted at a time where Leddy wasn't at maximum value, but he still had plenty of upside that the Isles paid for in the form of Pokka. I don't think there's any massive regret in this trade from the Hawks perspective. And even if Pokka busts and never plays a game in Chicago, I'll just chalk it up to the balancing of the universe since the Hawks had no business getting Leddy in the Barker deal in the first place.

 

[x Tame Impala]

in a sense I can understand this, but what more does he have to prove?

he was won a cup, and has been in the league for 4 years now hitting over 30 points every single full season (expecting that for this year as well)...I think he has proven enough to get that contract but I do agree living up to it becomes the hARD Part as many guys collapse to the pressure of signing these deals..

He "won a cup" like Seguin "won a cup", even to a lesser degree. He was on a cup winning team playing 3 minutes a night. Lets not pretend he was doing much. Excuse my ignorance, and I REALLY hate when people take a 10 second trip to NHL.com to try and prove a point, but is 30 points that impressive? Right now, 60ish games in there are 32 defenseman with 30+ points (all of whom have more points than Leddy). There are a dozen are so more guys (Leddy included) who will probably finish with more than 30 points as well.

Again, I hate when people pull up stats as the end all, be all of an argument. That's not what i'm trying to do. Just some honest curiosity. Is 30 points really the marker for a "proven defenseman"?

 

[x Tame Impala]

Off topic but I already miss playing with Leddy on the Hawks in EA NHL games. He's so fast and good with the puck.

 

[AmericanDream]

He "won a cup" like Seguin "won a cup", even to a lesser degree. He was on a cup winning team playing 3 minutes a night. Lets not pretend he was doing much. Excuse my ignorance, and I REALLY hate when people take a 10 second trip to NHL.com to try and prove a point, but is 30 points that impressive? Right now, 60ish games in there are 32 defenseman with 30+ points (all of whom have more points than Leddy). There are a dozen are so more guys (Leddy included) who will probably finish with more than 30 points as well.

Again, I hate when people pull up stats as the end all, be all of an argument. That's not what i'm trying to do. Just some honest curiosity. Is 30 points really the marker for a "proven defenseman"?

How many are 23 years old?? Honest question. And yes I think a consistent 30 plus point dman in his early twenties is going to get these types of contracts...look at what Bickell got for the love of God..the value only goes up as the cap goes up...which it likely will.

As for pulling up stats well this is pro sports it is how we judge and rate and how players get paid for the most part. Leddy isnt a Hammer where his value is away from the puck...he is a young PMD how the hell else do you justify his value and contract when you know what he is getting paid to do??

 

[AmericanDream]

How many are 23 years old?? Honest question. And yes I think a consistent 30 plus point dman in his early twenties is going to get these types of contracts...look at what Bickell got for the love of God..the value only goes up as the cap goes up...which it likely will.

As for pulling up stats well this is pro sports it is how we judge and rate and how players get paid for the most part. Leddy isnt a Hammer where his value is away from the puck...he is a young PMD how the hell else do you justify his value and contract when you know what he is getting paid to do??

Some reason it was posting above...

 

[JaegerDice]

LOL at people who use Q's division of ice time as an indicator of a player's performance. I figure we had all learned better by now.

We all remember this same Joel Quenneville taking a full 3 rounds of the playoffs to reduce Handzus's ice-time last year and ultimately knock him off the 2nd line, right?

But yeah, Handzus was totally performing excellent, and you can tell because Q kept playing him. That 'how Q plays you reflects your performance' logic sure does work.

This is the man that continues to give Roszival big minutes this season despite his terrible performance, and continues to slot Shaw in the 3C... only after going 20+ games assured that Shaw would work as a 2C.

Same goes for Leddy. His play was more than fine, his ice-time never budged. The obstinate coach made up his mind, and nothing Leddy did or did not do was going to change it.

The Chicago Blackhawks are undoubtedly much, much more dangerous with Leddy playing on the 2nd pair with Hammer, both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

Using Quenneville's treatment of players as a barometer of their performance is probably the worst metric you could possibly use.

 

[hockeydoug]

Krug was a rookie in 2012-13 and outplayed Leddy

The fact he contributed as much as he did was impressive for B's run. Last year Krug played well in playoffs and Leddy was disaster

To date ,, Krug has shown far more ability then Leddy when it matters most

Krug was a one trick pony 13', it also backfired when it mattered most btw (up by 2 in the third of the finals and brainfarting). Even his goalie threw him under the bus on that. I wouldn't want either one in the top 4 on a contender this year.

In another year or two, I trust Leddy's overall game more than Krug's so we'll agree to disagree about how much worse one limited dimension player was compared to the other limited dimensional player.

Leddy wasn't a good fit in Chicago in the near term, but I'm sure glad Bowman got him for Barker. Hopefully Pokka takes the next step.

 

[ChiHawk21]

100% still think the hawks made the right move...They couldnt break up the oduya-hammer pairing it was too good. They needed to shed cap last year and knew they couldnt pay leddy what it was going to take this year.

They got a good prospect in pokka for him. I dont understand the other scenerios that people wanted to take place??

Trade oduya for nothing then play Leddy for the year and losing him after this year? big risk after seeing leddy in the playoffs and making him a top 4 D man.

 

[x Tame Impala]

How many are 23 years old?? Honest question. And yes I think a consistent 30 plus point dman in his early twenties is going to get these types of contracts...look at what Bickell got for the love of God..the value only goes up as the cap goes up...which it likely will.

As for pulling up stats well this is pro sports it is how we judge and rate and how players get paid for the most part. Leddy isnt a Hammer where his value is away from the puck...he is a young PMD how the hell else do you justify his value and contract when you know what he is getting paid to do??

I was trying to say that I wasn't trying to dismiss your argument with stats alone. You value his contract by watching him play, in addition to looking at his numbers. I don't know why you're so mad.

30 points is IMHO not enough to justify a 7 year, $38.5 million commitment

 

[x Tame Impala]

LOL at people who use Q's division of ice time as an indicator of a player's performance. I figure we had all learned better by now.

We all remember this same Joel Quenneville taking a full 3 rounds of the playoffs to reduce Handzus's ice-time last year and ultimately knock him off the 2nd line, right?

But yeah, Handzus was totally performing excellent, and you can tell because Q kept playing him. That 'how Q plays you reflects your performance' logic sure does work.

This is the man that continues to give Roszival big minutes this season despite his terrible performance, and continues to slot Shaw in the 3C... only after going 20+ games assured that Shaw would work as a 2C.

Same goes for Leddy. His play was more than fine, his ice-time never budged. The obstinate coach made up his mind, and nothing Leddy did or did not do was going to change it.

The Chicago Blackhawks are undoubtedly much, much more dangerous with Leddy playing on the 2nd pair with Hammer, both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

Using Quenneville's treatment of players as a barometer of their performance is probably the worst metric you could possibly use.

You probably wouldn't know this from your possession stats but Leddy was losing puck battles left and right all year long. He had moments of nice defense but they were few and far between. Q's obsession with Zeus doesn't change the fact that Leddy was in no way positively contributing in the post season

 

[JaegerDice]

There's something just so fitting about this image, with the two tweets seconds apart:

*Credit to commenters on TCI for finding it

 

[JaegerDice]

You probably wouldn't know this from your possession stats but Leddy was losing puck battles left and right all year long. He had moments of nice defense but they were few and far between. Q's obsession with Zeus doesn't change the fact that Leddy was in no way positively contributing in the post season

LOL, 'my' possession stats.

But yes, I do trust the picture painted by a running total of events that transpire on the ice while a particular player is skating, versus one user's selective memory.

Call it personal preference.

Leddy wasn't amazing in the 2014 run. Short of one game by Keith against the Blues, none of our defense was. The entire team was actually underwater possession-wise through that run, they were outplayed in far more games than vice-versa and relied on performances by Kane, Toews and an obscene performance by Crawford through 2 rounds. Leddy was, however, fine relative to the rest of the defensive core, and his play merited more minutes, if only to help lighten the load that Quenneville was putting on his top 4 in particularly, plus Rozsival who was looking twice his already advanced age by the Kings series.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

How many are 23 years old?? Honest question. And yes I think a consistent 30 plus point dman in his early twenties is going to get these types of contracts...look at what Bickell got for the love of God..the value only goes up as the cap goes up...which it likely will.

As for pulling up stats well this is pro sports it is how we judge and rate and how players get paid for the most part. Leddy isnt a Hammer where his value is away from the puck...he is a young PMD how the hell else do you justify his value and contract when you know what he is getting paid to do??

Nick Leddy currently ranks 43rd among defenders in scoring (Behind 2 Hawks I would add)

Defenders younger or of similiar age group (23-26) who have more pts then him

Ekblad - 19 yrs old (Fla)
Lindholm - 21 yrs old (Car)
Hamilton - 21 yrs old (Bos)
Klingberg - 22 yrs old (Dal)
Faulk - 22 yrs old (Car)
OEL - 23 yrs old (Ari)
Barrie - 23 yrs old (Col)
Fowler - 23 yrs old (Ana)
Krug - 23 yrs old (Bos)
Vatanen - 23 yrs old (Ana)
Josi - 24 yrs old (Nsh)
Hedman - 24 yrs old (TB)
Brodie - 24 yrs old (Cal)
Karlsson - 24 yrs old (Ott)
Doughty - 25 yrs old (LA)
Carlsson - 25 yrs old (Was)
Subban - 25 yrs old (Mtl)
Pietrangelo - 25 yrs old (Stl)
Muzzin - 26 yrs old (LA)
Shattenkirk - 26 yrs old (Stl)

So right now outside of the many older vet NHL players outscoring him you have

1 - 19 yr old
2 - 21 yr olds
2 - 22 yr olds
5 - 23 yr olds
4 - 24 yr olds
4 - 25 yr olds
2 - 26 yr olds

All outscoring Nick ,, Not all that special an achievement to be 43rd ranked NHL scoring defender at 23 yrs old

When you compare defenders in his age range 21-26 he isn't all that impressive

 

[hockeydoug]

The obstinate coach made up his mind, and nothing Leddy did or did not do was going to change it.

After Hjalmarsson signed his extension it's very possible that Q had no reason to worry about Leddy's development or progression. His only concern may have been to get what he could out of him rather than to try to work him into the top 4.

I don't think Leddy is a good example to use to project Q as some sort of obstinate coach, there isn't enough info available.

 

[hockeydoug]

There's something just so fitting about this image, with the two tweets seconds apart:

*Credit to commenters on TCI for finding it

That does seem appropriate.
I'm laughing and crying. Good find.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

Leddy was underrated and underused by Quenneville in his time here and the lack of trust to even try to get him a regular shift was probably a contributing factor in the Hawks losing last year, though of course nowhere close to the main two reasons (Handzus not getting his useless arse covered for any more and Crawford pooping the bed).

But that contract after less than a year? I sure hope the Islanders aren't paying him for his shot attempt +/-. That would be very, very bad management.

I would have kept Leddy and let Oduya go. Oduya has been grossly overrated at numerous times during his time here and had nowhere to go but down. Leddy is still getting better.

 

[Cullksinikers]

That is a crazy deal for Leddy, especially when you consider what we have Keith, Seabs, and Hammer signed for. Welcome to the era of cap inflation.

 

[JaegerDice]

That is a crazy deal for Leddy, especially when you consider what we have Keith, Seabs, and Hammer signed for. Welcome to the era of cap inflation.

Keith was signed before the CBA forbid those contracts. It's 13 years long. If Leddy could be signed for 13 years, he'd be making a hell of a lot less than 5.5. You can't compare Keith's contract with the rest of them.

 

[Taze em]

Leddy deserves that money but I don't think you can win the whole thing with Leddy taking up 7-8% of your cap, if that makes any sense to anyone other than me.

Basically 5.5 puts him in the Hjalmarsson slot going forward for the Isles, don't think you can do a ton of damage with that but what do I know.

 

[hawksrule]

It doesn't matter that Q was wrong. Leddy's value wouldn't have been going up the way Q was using him.

Unfortunately, this is the reality. Q was never going to trust him. Q is a good coach, but his pigheadedness cost us a good player.