Around the NHL - Part XLII - (2023-24 Season edition)

[NYR Viper]

Rem Pitlick went to Pit, and Mike Hoffman went to the Sharks.

Is it ironic that Hoffman was part of the deal for Karlsson after what happened in Ottawa between their spouses?

 

[McRanger92]

Karlsson is a beast obviously but how does that trade fill a need for Pittsburgh? Who is playing D and keeping the puck out of the net? I do think they have passed the Islanders as a top 4 team in the Metro though.

 

[MrAlmost]

Everyone else, yes.

Do you even know who I am?

View attachment 734275

Tell me I'm going to rip this guy with a chart like that.

You ripped Z for being bad at defense with a pretty similar looking chart. Albeit a forward of course. And right after you explained how he has the hardest matchups on the team. So that was weird. It was like you you actually explained why the numbers were quite good, then missed your own point.

Then you said Panarin could put together a great playoffs and that his performances there could turn around. But then you said Laf sucks and has no chance of turning it around, regardless of minutes, even though he is 21 and Panarin is 31.

Then you massively downplayed the amount of cap 11.6 million is. Which was also odd since it is objectively a sizeable portion and based on contracts over the last 3 years, you absolutely could add 2 meaningful players with that money and extend Miller for more than the 2 years we see now.

I'm not going to say Karlsson is bad at defense, I think he is average and with that offense, you take it. But saying he is good at it and someone like Z is bad at it when the charts look the same is selective hearing. Or reading. Ha

 

[Machinehead]

You ripped Z for being bad at defense with a pretty similar looking chart. Albeit a forward of course. And right after you explained how he has the hardest matchups on the team. So that was weird. It was like you you actually explained why the numbers were quite good, then missed your own point.

I didn't explain why the numbers were actually good. I said stop using him for defense because he sucks at it and that he's good at offense. Karlsson's teams have been smart enough to use him for offense.

Then you said Panarin could put together a great playoffs and that his performances there could turn around. But then you said Laf sucks and has no chance of turning it around, regardless of minutes, even though he is 21 and Panarin is 31.

Yes.

One guy is Artemi Panarin and other guy is Alexis Lafreniere. I'm not going to waste any more time comparing them.

Then you massively downplayed the amount of cap 11.6 million is. Which was also odd since it is objectively a sizeable portion and based on contracts over the last 3 years, you absolutely could add 2 meaningful players with that money and extend Miller for more than the 2 years we see now.

What is a "meaningful" player?

You have to think at least $5m, no? And I think that's being generous. Two of those are are $10m and again, I think that's being generous.

An extra $1.6m is extending K'Andre Miller long-term?

You guys just think $11.6m is way more than it is.

Not to harp on one example, but Damon Severson just got a $6.25m AAV. He's a #4 defenseman on a good day.

Salaries are insane right now. They went way up and keep going way up, and the cap ceiling hasn't budged. That's why we're in a bad situation (along with everyone else) not because of Panarin's contract.

I'm not going to say Karlsson is bad at defense, I think he is average and with that offense, you take it. But saying he is good at it and someone like Z is bad at it when the charts look the same is selective hearing. Or reading. Ha

I love the audacity to say I did selective reading. Quote my original post and point to me exactly where I said Karlsson is good at defense.

 

[NYR Viper]

Many of the contracts that people complain about will start to look like bargains beginning next off-season. Trochek, Kreider, Panarin, Fox. Just wait for the cap to go up

 

[MrAlmost]

I didn't explain why the numbers were actually good. I said stop using him for defense because he sucks at it and that he's good at offense. Karlsson's teams have been smart enough to use him for offense.

Yes.

One guy is Artemi Panarin and other guy is Alexis Lafreniere. I'm not going to waste any more time comparing them.

What is a "meaningful" player?

You have to think at least $5m, no? And I think that's being generous. Two of those are are $10m and again, I think that's being generous.

An extra $1.6m is extending K'Andre Miller long-term?

You guys just think $11.6m is way more than it is.

Not to harp on one example, but Damon Severson just got a $6.25m AAV. He's a #4 defenseman on a good day.

Salaries are insane right now. They went way up and keep going way up, and the cap ceiling hasn't budged. That's why we're in a bad situation (along with everyone else) not because of Panarin's contract.

I love the audacity to say I did selective reading. Quote my original post and point to me exactly where I said Karlsson is good at defense.

So like I just said, Z sucks at D despite a better looking defensive chart than Karlsson, but Karlsson's defensive deficiencies are overblown cause people dont like point producing defensemen? Given the matchups, again, Z would be good at defense. Based on the chart provided.

Yeah one is Artemi Panarin, but he is getting older and Laf is still young. I dont know if Panarin or Laf will continue to be good or suck, but if there is potential with a 31 year old to improve, there is potential with a 21 year old.

11.6 is a lot. If it wasn't a lot, why would it be the amount Panarin signed for making him the second highest paid player at the time? 2 5 million players like Trocheck and Chytil? That's not that bad. I am not saying Panarin isn't a great player. You are saying that the money isn't a lot when it just is. Also, an additional 1.6 for Miller is 5.472. Yeah that is enough to get a long term deal.

But yeah, salaries are weird. Severson did get 6.25. But Wheeler got 800K. Trocheck scored 60 points but only makes 5.6. Bunting got 4.5 after a 50 point season. I mean Severson's contract isn't horrible, but it ain't good, and that seems to be more the MO of a JD run organization. Haha

No audacity intended. I interpreted you saying his defense is overblown and that providing the chart and saying you wouldn't complain about that player was saying he wasn't bad at defense.

 

[Machinehead]

So like I just said, Z sucks at D despite a better looking defensive chart than Karlsson, but Karlsson's defensive deficiencies are overblown cause people dont like point producing defensemen? Given the matchups, again, Z would be good at defense. Based on the chart provided.

Yeah one is Artemi Panarin, but he is getting older and Laf is still young. I dont know if Panarin or Laf will continue to be good or suck, but if there is potential with a 31 year old to improve, there is potential with a 21 year old.

11.6 is a lot. If it wasn't a lot, why would it be the amount Panarin signed for making him the second highest paid player at the time? 2 5 million players like Trocheck and Chytil? That's not that bad. I am not saying Panarin isn't a great player. You are saying that the money isn't a lot when it just is. Also, an additional 1.6 for Miller is 5.472. Yeah that is enough to get a long term deal.

But yeah, salaries are weird. Severson did get 6.25. But Wheeler got 800K. Trocheck scored 60 points but only makes 5.6. Bunting got 4.5 after a 50 point season. I mean Severson's contract isn't horrible, but it ain't good, and that seems to be more the MO of a JD run organization. Haha

No audacity intended. I interpreted you saying his defense is overblown and that providing the chart and saying you wouldn't complain about that player was saying he wasn't bad at defense.

All defense is overblown. The team that scores more goals wins. My whole point about Zibanejad wasn't that he's hurting with his defense, but that he shouldn't be asked to play defense.

Even at his ceiling, Lafreniere was never going to be Panarin so comparing their ages is pointless. Comparing anything about them is pointless. They're not the same tier. Me having little hope for Lafreniere at this point has nothing to do with me defending Panarin.

I defend Panarin because he's our only gamebreaking talent. To assume that we can take his dollars, distribute them more evenly throughout the lineup, and the production of those dollars would be the same is not how anything works.

This team needs Panarin or they need somebody like Panarin. They don't have the kind of roster where swapping out Panarin for depth makes them a better team. If we had two other stars it would make more sense to me. Panarin is our only forward who does anything at an elite level besides Kreider tipping pucks. This roster doesn't have the horsepower to lose Panarin and replace him with a couple of nice pieces.

Depth isn't the problem with this team. As much as the Kid Line annoys me, they drive play at a second-line level despite being our third line. Goodrow and Vesey have been top nine players their whole careers and are on our 4th line. We have depth.

High-end talent is still the biggest thing this team lacks. You could certainly argue Panarin contributes to a lack of high-end talent when he's a non-factor, but removing him doesn't correct the problem.

 

[Machinehead]

If you want to dump Panarin go after whoever the next star is that sort of shakes loose, I'd be on board with that.

I am violently unenthused by replacing Panarin with a couple of middle sixers and the solution to 1LW is playing Lafreniere a ton.

At the end of the day, that's what it's really about. I anxiously await him giving me a reason to want to get rid of Panarin.

 

[NYR Viper]

If you want to dump Panarin go after whoever the next star is that sort of shakes loose, I'd be on board with that.

I am violently unenthused by replacing Panarin with a couple of middle sixers and the solution to 1LW is playing Lafreniere a ton.

At the end of the day, that's what it's really about. I anxiously await him giving me a reason to want to get rid of Panarin.

Part of this formula is who the team gets back for trading Panarin. Obviously not happening this off-season but if a team offered up a nice package of futures while allowing Drury cap space to go after someone next off-season, that's a consideration.

 

[will1066]

If you want to dump Panarin go after whoever the next star is that sort of shakes loose, I'd be on board with that.

I am violently unenthused by replacing Panarin with a couple of middle sixers and the solution to 1LW is playing Lafreniere a ton.

At the end of the day, that's what it's really about. I anxiously await him giving me a reason to want to get rid of Panarin.

The problem with Panarin is when he's not vintage Panarin, he's a damn liability out there with the turnovers, hammering square-peg-into-round-hole plays until the peg looks like it's been chewed on a full day by a 2 year old, and the sometimes-there, sometimes-f***-it backcheck attitude.

You can't even say this about Nash, who worked hard when he wasn't scoring, which was a lot of the time.

 

[NYR Viper]

The problem with Panarin is when he's not vintage Panarin, he's a damn liability out there with the turnovers, hammering square-peg-into-round-hole plays until the peg looks like it's been chewed on a full day by a 2 year old, and the sometimes-there, sometimes-f***-it backcheck attitude.

You can't even say this about Nash, who worked hard when he wasn't scoring, which was a lot of the time.

I think that with a system, if properly integrated, those WTF stretches would drastically diminish or go away. If he knows that if there is no play, he is just supposed to curl back and throw it on net, that's a low probability play but it's a get out of danger move. That has to be instilled in his game. Don't curl back and force it across the ice all the time.

 

[Machinehead]

The problem with Panarin is when he's not vintage Panarin, he's a damn liability out there with the turnovers, hammering square-peg-into-round-hole plays until the peg looks like it's been chewed on a full day by a 2 year old, and the sometimes-there, sometimes-f***-it backcheck attitude.

You can't even say this about Nash, who worked hard when he wasn't scoring, which was a lot of the time.

At 5v5, Panarin is probably a better defender than Nash was.

Nash's defensive reputation was built entirely on penalty killing.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Is it me, or is there no amount of work that can save the shit sandwich that is the Erik Karlsson trade?

Malkin and Crosby are a stiff breeze away from a retirement home.
They have little depth.
Their prospect pool is laughable.
Jarry is the very definition of mediocre.

I get that Kyle Dumbass didn't give up much, but when you have barely anything of value to begin with, even a little bit is entirely too much. I can't find any conditions on that 1st rounder and it is entirely possible that the Penguins miss the playoffs this year.

 

[Synergy27]

Is it me, or is there no amount of work that can save the shit sandwich that is the Erik Karlsson trade?

Malkin and Crosby are a stiff breeze away from a retirement home.
They have little depth.
Their prospect pool is laughable.
Jarry is the very definition of mediocre.

I get that Kyle Dumbass didn't give up much, but when you have barely anything of value to begin with, even a little bit is entirely too much. I can't find any conditions on that 1st rounder and it is entirely possible that the Penguins miss the playoffs this year.

It’s really not though. The assets they have up were basically what they would have had to pay just to get rid of Granlund and Petry. They got rid of both AND got the reigning Norris Trophy winner back.

The trade is a huge win for that team, but it doesn’t dramatically improve their chances of winning the Cup. Both things can be true.

 

[Gardner McKay]

It’s really not though. The assets they have up were basically what they would have had to pay just to get rid of Granlund and Petry. They got rid of both AND got the reigning Norris Trophy winner back.

The trade is a huge win for that team, but it doesn’t dramatically improve their chances of winning the Cup. Both things can be true.

When you have zero assets to begin with and you are clinging on to an aging core, you are only prolonging the inevitable and creating a deeper hole to dig yourself from in 1-2 years when it all burns down.

If they were rebuilding, as they should, they wouldn't have cared as much about moving Granlund and Petry, and could have kept their first. Forget the cup, they aren't even a lock for a wildcard spot. That first could be high.

 

[ArPanet]

Big winners in the Karlsson trade is the league's broadcast partners.

 

[Levitate]

I think it's a trade that makes sense for the Pens. The odds they squeek out another cup are quite low but this does improve them, and they're already committed to Crosby, Malkin, and Letang for the next couple of years. So...why not. Odds are it doesn't work out for them but doesn't really "hurt" them right now either (unless they didn't lottery protect that pick and manage to be super bad)
Couple of years from now they'll enter a rebuild, but while they still have life in Crosby and Malkin they'll try to go for it

e: like, I think people are ignoring how fortunate the Pens have been to have the superstars they do and how when you still have those guys producing at a high level, wasting their final productive years in a rebuild isn't something many GMs are going to buy into. They have a better chance of trying to win the cup with those guys now than they do in 5 years of rebuilding IMO

 

[NYR Viper]

Not to be ignored, Karlsson has 4 years left on his deal. If that team takes a dive in a year or two, Karlsson, with $$ retained, is going to likely be a nice asset to parlay into future assets.

 

[bhamill]

Just as a fun fact, current Vegas odds, after the Karlsson trade, have NYR 9th most likely to win the Cup and PIT 13th .

 

[will1066]

This team traded for Patty Kane thinking he was the missing link to a championship. Let's look at our glass house before throwing stones at the Igloo.

 

[Synergy27]

When you have zero assets to begin with and you are clinging on to an aging core, you are only prolonging the inevitable and creating a deeper hole to dig yourself from in 1-2 years when it all burns down.

If they were rebuilding, as they should, they wouldn't have cared as much about moving Granlund and Petry, and could have kept their first. Forget the cup, they aren't even a lock for a wildcard spot. That first could be high.

I’ve been telling myself this too, but, what does Karlsson on an expiring contract fetch at the TDL in a couple of years? This was a no brainer move for the Penguins. I was really hoping that they’d have to pay far more to offload Granlund and Petry in separate deals.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I’ve been telling myself this too, but, what does Karlsson on an expiring contract fetch at the TDL in a couple of years? This was a no brainer move for the Penguins. I was really hoping that they’d have to pay far more to offload Granlund and Petry in separate deals.

I think that all depends on the year and if Karlsson is still healthy, both of which are big ifs.

 

[Leonardo87]

Is it me, or is there no amount of work that can save the shit sandwich that is the Erik Karlsson trade?

Malkin and Crosby are a stiff breeze away from a retirement home.
They have little depth.
Their prospect pool is laughable.
Jarry is the very definition of mediocre.

I get that Kyle Dumbass didn't give up much, but when you have barely anything of value to begin with, even a little bit is entirely too much. I can't find any conditions on that 1st rounder and it is entirely possible that the Penguins miss the playoffs this year.

They have won with that core( Malkin, Letang, and Crosby) multiple times. Nothing more to lose, It's like one last ride or two going into the sunset. I think they know this is it for awhile.

But with that said, once that trio is gone, Pittsburgh will be in for some painful seasons, and with such a poor prospect pool will take them even longer since they have to recoup those assets. This is why I hate trading 1st round picks.

It's also very frustrating that they win the lottery multiple times, get players like Crosby and Malkin, win multiple cups, and here we are with F'ing Laffy Taffy. lol.

 

[will1066]

They have won with that core( Malkin, Letang, and Crosby) multiple times. Nothing more to lose, It's like one last ride or two going into the sunset. I think they know this is it for awhile.

But with that said, once that trio is gone, Pittsburgh will be in for some painful seasons, and with such a poor prospect pool will take them even longer since they have to recoup those assets. This is why I hate trading 1st round picks.

It's also very frustrating that they win the lottery multiple times, get players like Crosby and Malkin, win multiple cups, and here we are with F'ing Laffy Taffy. lol.

If Malkin, Letang, Crosby and Karlsson were Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles instead of Penguins, who would be which turtle?

 

[Leonardo87]

If Malkin, Letang, Crosby and Karlsson were Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles instead of Penguins, who would be which turtle?

Do not insult my turtles comparing them to those guys. lol.

Crosby - Shredder
Malkin - Baxter Stockman/Fly mutant dude
Letang - Kraang