Around the NHL (Part XIII): RIP Bob Suter

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Kurtosis

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May 26, 2010
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Hate to see any player choose the KHL over the NHL but that this happened to the Blues, especially after some of their fans comments on the T/K contracts, gave me a little smirk on my face when I read it.

While I am not a huge fan of the contracts (as I am sure many are aware) Blues fans poking fun at them are rich. They wish they had two players near Toews and Kane's level of play. I hope they have fun rolling 2 2nd lines and 2 4th lines next year.
 

Sarava

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May 9, 2010
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but it says that Crawford has proven it already... Schneider hasn't. I don't care why but I can see that Crawford has won us PO series and he won a Cup.

I don't understand the need to knock Corey Schneider down just to prop up CC by some of you? It's bizarre.

Schneider has been elite since he came to the NHL. He's been in weird situations that have prevented him from being the outright #1 - but we know it wasn't due to play on his part.

I don't know if Schneider will ever win a cup. Its not his fault that the Devils suck.
 

Chris Hansen

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Aug 17, 2007
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No he wasnt.

Some of you people seriously need to watch teams besides the Hawks sometime.

Crawford was absolutely the biggest reason the Hawks got past STL and MIN. Chicago got outplayed in both of those series, especially against the Wild.
 

Sarava

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May 9, 2010
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Crawford was absolutely the biggest reason the Hawks got past STL and MIN. Chicago got outplayed in both of those series, especially against the Wild.

I agree in the Minny series...he carried the team there. I don't see the St. Louis series the same way as you... and of course you completely left out the Kings series for some reason? :laugh:

But seriously - I think very highly of Corey Schneider. I think he's going to settle in as the best American goalie (yes above Quick and Miller). He's played in 143 NHL games - so for anyone to suggest he hasn't been tested is absurd. I think I saw that he leads the NHL in save % since he came in to the league? thought I read that somewhere yesterday.
 

Chris Hansen

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I agree in the Minny series...he carried the team there. I don't see the St. Louis series the same way as you... and of course you completely left out the Kings series for some reason? :laugh:

Bubba's originally post that CI disagreed with mentioned that Crawford was the (main) reason they got by the Blues and Wild. Kings weren't part of the discussion (but if we do go there, it's not very difficult to blame that laughable defense).

The Hawks' worst game of the postseason might actually have been Game 3 against the Blues, but nobody remembers that because Miller let in a terrible goal and Crawford was a stone wall. They were also significantly outplayed in Game 6 but Crawford came through again (and Miller was dreadful again). The other four games of the series were pretty even.

Not sure what the problem was with the team, but the Blackhawks sans Crawford earned a 3-0 series deficit against the Blues. As optimistic as I am, it's close to impossible to see them coming back from that. Luckily CC stood on his head - down 2-1 is a heck of a lot more doable than down 3-0.

The Hawks were pretty awful during the first two rounds.
 

Sarava

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I'm not saying Crawford didn't play well in the Blues series. I'm just saying he didn't steal the series, as I think he did against the Wild. To me he was the leader from the Hawks perspective for Conn Smythe going in to the Kings series.

But to me this isn't about Crawford. I am very confident Schneider is a top 5 goalie in the NHL, and very likely might settle in the top 2 or 3 once he's been the clear #1 guy for a few years.
 

Chris Hansen

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I'm not saying Crawford didn't play well in the Blues series. I'm just saying he didn't steal the series, as I think he did against the Wild. To me he was the leader from the Hawks perspective for Conn Smythe going in to the Kings series.

Fair enough. I agree he didn't steal the series against STL, but he was Chicago's best player in it.

I'm nowhere near as high on Schneider as you are, but it's just a guessing game at this point.
 

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I don't understand the need to knock Corey Schneider down just to prop up CC by some of you? It's bizarre.

Schneider has been elite since he came to the NHL. He's been in weird situations that have prevented him from being the outright #1 - but we know it wasn't due to play on his part.

I don't know if Schneider will ever win a cup. Its not his fault that the Devils suck.

I don't see the need to bring down Crawford. He's proven to be a very good goalie.

Having watched both of these guys for a few years now I so think Schneider is the more talented goalie but he's proven nothing in the playoffs yet. Crawford has.

Stacked teams and blah blah blah but Crawford's postseason play makes him a better goalie IMO
 

UsernameWasTaken

Let's Go Hawks!
Feb 11, 2012
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I don't see the need to bring down Crawford. He's proven to be a very good goalie.

Having watched both of these guys for a few years now I so think Schneider is the more talented goalie but he's proven nothing in the playoffs yet. Crawford has.

Stacked teams and blah blah blah but Crawford's postseason play makes him a better goalie IMO

Right. And Justin Williams is a better player than John Tavares.
 

Chris Hansen

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Right. And Justin Williams is a better player than John Tavares.

That comparison is off. Tavares has large samples of big success in the regular season to fall back on. Schneider does not.

The guy's career-high in games is 45 - this season - where he put up a good-but-not-great sv% with a defensive-oriented team in the league's worst division.
 

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The two Corey's have a very similar talent level. I don't see how the Williams/Tavares comparison is accurate at all. It'd be like saying Crawford is better than Lundqvist or Rinne.

Two goalies with comparable talent levels, one has had outstanding playoff runs the other hasn't. IMHO when it's close like that, I view the guy with proven playoff success to be the better goalie.

Get out of here with that Williams/Tavares nonsense.
 

UsernameWasTaken

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That comparison is off. Tavares has large samples of big success in the regular season to fall back on. Schneider does not.

The guy's career-high in games is 45 - this season - where he put up a good-but-not-great sv% with a defensive-oriented team in the league's worst division.

In one of the worst teams in that division. And Schneider's 'good but not great' sv% was better than Crawford's...in a matter of fact, he's put up a better sv% than Crawford every year - and is clearly the more skilled of the two of them.

Crawford's only had one very good year himself.

The two Corey's have a very similar talent level. I don't see how the Williams/Tavares comparison is accurate at all. It'd be like saying Crawford is better than Lundqvist or Rinne.

Two goalies with comparable talent levels, one has had outstanding playoff runs the other hasn't. IMHO when it's close like that, I view the guy with proven playoff success to be the better goalie.

Get out of here with that Williams/Tavares nonsense.

They really don't.
 

Bubba88

Toews = Savior
Nov 8, 2009
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I don't understand the need to knock Corey Schneider down just to prop up CC by some of you? It's bizarre.

Schneider has been elite since he came to the NHL. He's been in weird situations that have prevented him from being the outright #1 - but we know it wasn't due to play on his part.

I don't know if Schneider will ever win a cup. Its not his fault that the Devils suck.

thats just because Schneider isn't elite... not yet. Not going to take away anything from him but as of now I'd take the similar and proven Corey over Cory
 

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In one of the worst teams in that division. And Schneider's 'good but not great' sv% was better than Crawford's...in a matter of fact, he's put up a better sv% than Crawford every year - and is clearly the more skilled of the two of them.

Crawford's only had one very good year himself.



They really don't.

What's with the short and demeaning responses? If I want that I can go to the main board.

I don't know what would make you say their talent levels aren't very close to one another. Like I said earlier, I think Schneider is the more talented goalie but the gap in talent between him and Crawford is not the same as the gap in talent between Lundqvist/Rask/Quick and Crawford.
 

UsernameWasTaken

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What's with the short and demeaning responses? If I want that I can go to the main board.

I don't know what would make you say their talent levels aren't very close to one another. Like I said earlier, I think Schneider is the more talented goalie but the gap in talent between him and Crawford is not the same as the gap in talent between Lundqvist/Rask/Quick and Crawford.

I didn't intend to seem demeaning so i'm sorry if i did. I'm just saying that while Crawford is clearly the more accomplished player, I don't see them as being similarly talented. I agree Crawford is closer to talent with Schneider than he is to Lundqvist and Rask (although I find Quick a bit worse than those two). However, I don't think that Crawford and Schneider are on the same level skill wise.
 

Chris Hansen

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Never really understood how people can throw around statements like "clearly more skilled" when referring to goaltenders.
 

Crazy_Ike

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Fair enough. I agree he didn't steal the series against STL, but he was Chicago's best player in it.

He didn't need to be. The Blues team we played from game 3 on was probably not even a playoff caliber team with the state of their forward corps. Everyone was hurt. Some were playing at about 40%. How quickly people forget that they didn't score more than 2 goals and were shutout three times in their last nine games of the regular season... and that was WITH Backes. Once Seabrook blew him away, that series was over. So if we are going to give any credit to anyone, it's probably Brent.

As for Minny, they will never be a match for the Hawks. They haven't had an offense worth mentioning in at least eight years, mostly because of chicken%@*$ '90s style coaching.

It is easy to look good against teams like that.

Here's the thing, Chris. The goalie is the most important position on the team. This means the goalie has more impact on the game than any other single player by default. Starting goalies in the NHL all have to be able to win games that their team isn't playing strong in, or they are not starting goaltenders. Crawford absolutely is a starting goalie and is quite capable of winning games.

I think you would agree with that. But here's where we diverge. You see Crawford as winning games and therefore he is elite. I see him as doing absolutely nothing that other starting goalies in the league wouldn't do just as well with the Hawks in front of him. Not the worst of the starters, of course. But nothing special either. Because watching other teams play without having the Hawks in front of them shows just how easy a time Crawford actually has of it out there compared to what other teams' goalies have to deal with.

Many fans here only really see other goalies when they PLAY the Hawks - the best offensive team in the last five years or so, often significantly so. So they routinely see guys like Kane and Toews scoring and routinely see the other goalies getting hammered, while Crawford almost always has a much easier offense to deal with. But that's not typical leaguewide. If Crawford had to play against the Hawks... well, take a look at his L.A. performance. He held them under 3 goals once, under 4 goals twice, in seven games, and averaged four goals against per game. This is more than Niemi in San Jose, more than the platoon of goalies Anaheim used, and more than Lundqvist gave up even prorating to seven games. Crawford was the weakest goalie the Kings faced in four playoff rounds, albeit with a big asterix in the case of Gibson. I know, some people are going to blame the defense, and it's true, the Hawks have the weakest defense of the four teams the Kings played... but not THAT much weaker (9 more goals against throughout the regular season than the Ducks, 19 more than the Sharks, and 22 more than the Rangers), and were still in the top half of the league.

So while you argue "well he wins games", I say "yes, he does... but so can everyone else." I ask "is Crawford doing anything that most the other starters in the league couldn't do?" You may say yes, you may not. But that's why I don't see Crawford as a top goalie. With a team that has the puck as much as the Hawks do with as much depth as the Hawks do, what he does just isn't that impressive, and he probably should not have been given that contract. If the Hawks ever lose that depth that allows them to generally dominate other teams all over the ice, we'd see what he was REALLY made of, just like we see what Hawks backups are made of away from the Hawks (cough Emery). But whenever we get an apples to apples comparison, he just doesn't seem to really be that good relative to the other starting goalies of the league. Quite average, really. Not among the worst, not among the best. So I just can't give him the credit you and others do.

One more thing. A lot of people blame the Hawks defense, or team defense, for goals against. There is actually a goaltender related reason for the way the Hawks frequently collapse down low - Crawford gives up absolutely gigantic rebounds, and does it all. the. time. The coaches have decided to make up for this by making sure there are more Hawks near the crease or slot than opposing players (at least in theory).

I am not really going to get into Schneider - I don't like to judge goalies early in their careers - but I will absolutely compare Crawford to a very similar goalie in terms of the situations they are in... Osgood. Crawford is the Hawks version of him.
 
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