OT: Around the NHL - Cat Scratch Fever

[Jaded-Fan]

By greats I meant the big guns in Lemieux and Gretzky.



Crosby's top era adjusted season is 59th all time.

McDavid has 3 era adjusted seasons above that one.

McDavid has almost a decade less of a career that Crosby. How were Crosby's adjusted averages a decade ago?

 

[Turin]

Mario lost major time during his career with injuries much more significant than Sid and figured it out.

Not only does this sentence not make sense, but nobody argues for Crosby over Lemieux.

 

[Gurglesons]

What's Mario got to do with anything? The comparison is Sid and McDavid.

Sid's absolutely a top-5 player all time. Argue whatever order you want, but it's Mario, Gretzky, Sid, Orr and McDavid imo.

Then much like Gretzky versus Lemieux. McDavid in terms of individual contributions has the receipts while Crosby has the what ifs.

 

[Lara Emily]

AFAIC, this finals dispelled a little bit the "McD has no help" notion. 2 of the 3 wins EDM had this series were driven by that depth. Their PK was historically good. I mean, being a net negatve-1 through the entire playoffs is absolutely insane.

And in game 7 it was depth that scored the 1 and kept Florida to 2

When all you need from your superstar Captain is 1 point to at least force ot in G7 you've done your job.

 

[Gurglesons]

McDavid has almost a decade less of a career that Crosby. How were Crosby's adjusted averages a decade ago?

Individual seasons shouldn't be effected by those stats.

I'm not a big era adjusted guy. @Turin was the one who brought them up.

 

[Turin]

It's okay to be wrong .

I'm fine to admit when I am.

Wrong about what?

I’m talking scoring rates, you’re talking season totals. Scoring rates put Crosby in the all time category where everybody recognizes he belongs, scoring seasons put him behind MacKinnon, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Teemu Selanne, Howie Morenz, Phil Espisoto and 12 other WWII vets who played hockey on the side.

All time scoring adjusted seasons also fail to take into account dominance relative to your peers which is how being a generational talent/legendary player is actually judged historically. Basically all the greatest seasons are in the 50’s, 80s, early 90s, and now.

 

[wheelz87]

Just don’t think mittelstadt is the guy to have behind Mackinnon

 

[Gurglesons]

Wrong about what?

I’m talking scoring rates, you’re talking season totals. Scoring rates put Crosby in the all time category where everybody recognizes he belongs, scoring seasons put him behind MacKinnon, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Teemu Selanne, Howie Morenz, Phil Espisoto and 12 other WWII vets who played hockey on the side.

What scoring rates do this?

Just don’t think mittelstadt is the guy to have behind Mackinnon

I think it's a very solid deal.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Individual seasons shouldn't be effected by those stats.

I'm not a big era adjusted guy. @Turin was the one who brought them up.

Gretzky still produced well into his 30's. But not like he did in his early to mid-20's.

Sid is one of the very very few to keep up a high PPG well into his 30's. He is almost inhuman.

Of course it makes a huge difference if you include seasons in a great player's 30's. Look up every single one. For many the decline is steep. But father time impacts them all.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

V good value for Avs, I'm glad he seems to have finally figured it out after a bit of a rough time in Buffalo.

 

[Gurglesons]

Gretzky still produced well into his 30's. But not like he did in his early to mid-20's.

Sid is one of the very very few to keep up a high PPG well into his 30's. He is almost inhuman.

Of course it makes a huge difference if you include seasons in a great player's 30's. Look up every single one. For many the decline is steep. But father time impacts them all.

I'm not someone that puts a lot of value into "longevity" when rating all time hockey players. I think it matters, but I much prefer analyzing these players by their absolute peak years.

At this point, we know McDavid outside of the single championship Sid had won at a comparable age has vastly outperformed Crosby up until Sid was 27. This Smythe win and playoff run in the losing effort to me kind of erases the championship argument.

It's why I have Sid over Jagr. If we are talking longevity Jagr probably has a case over Sid..

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I'm not someone that puts a lot of value into "longevity" when rating all time hockey players. I think it matters, but I much prefer analyzing these players by their absolute peak years.

At this point, we know McDavid outside of the single championship Sid had one at a comparable age has vastly outperformed Crosby up until Sid was 27. This Smythe win and playoff run in the losing effort to me kind of erases the championship argument.

It's why I have Sid over Jagr. If we are talking longevity Jagr probably has a case over Sid..

You are comparing generational talents with vastly different skill sets and strengths.

It is like comparing Crosby and Ovechkin. Yes, Ovechkin was the greater goal scorer. If that is all that you look at Ovechkin has the edge. Although Crosby proved that if he wanted to focus on one element he could do so and become the best, at least for a year. He did it with goal scoring one year. Face-Offs another. And on and on. I doubt Ovechkin, or McDavid had the ability, or work ethic and driving desire, to do similar.

Finally, McDavid does amazing things when he has the puck. But you forget what Crosby could, and did, do on a nightly basis.

I think that there is a bit of this going on:

Recency bias​

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the serial-position effect, see Recency effect. For the linguistic phenomenon, see Recency illusion.

Compare recentism, which overlaps.

Recency bias is a cognitive bias that favors recent events over historic ones; a memory bias. Recency bias gives "greater importance to the most recent event",[1] such as the final lawyer's closing argument a jury hears before being dismissed to deliberate.

Recency bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gurglesons]

You are comparing generational talents with vastly different skill sets and strengths.

It is like comparing Crosby and Ovechkin. Yes, Ovechkin was the greater goal scorer. If that is all that you look at Ovechkin has the edge. Although Crosby proved that if he wanted to focus on one element he could do so and become the best. He did it with goal scoring one year. Face-Offs another. And on and on. I doubt Ovechkin, or McDavid had the ability, or work ethic and driving desire, to do similar.

Finally, McDavid does amazing things when he has the puck. But you forget what Crosby could, and did, do on a nightly basis.

I think that there is a bit of this going on:

Recency bias​

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the serial-position effect, see Recency effect. For the linguistic phenomenon, see Recency illusion.

Compare recentism, which overlaps.

Recency bias is a cognitive bias that favors recent events over historic ones; a memory bias. Recency bias gives "greater importance to the most recent event",[1] such as the final lawyer's closing argument a jury hears before being dismissed to deliberate.

Recency bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't forget what Crosby did lol. I've been arguing Crosby over McDavid for years.

This year's playoffs is recency bias, because it's historic. McDavid has now put up the best regular season and playoff run production wise second to Lemieux and Gretzky.

Sid wasn't even close to either of those.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I don't forget what Crosby did lol. I've been arguing Crosby over McDavid for years.

This year's playoffs is recency bias, because it's historic. McDavid has now put up the best regular season and playoff run production wise second to Lemieux and Gretzky.

Sid wasn't even close to either of those.

You make my point.

Sid's greatness is work ethic combined with skill combined with longevity. The longevity likely is a by product of the first two.

McDavid has looked like a generational talent, but there have been many of those.

Read my example of Solon and the King above.

Crosby has played 180 playoff games. McDavid 74.

Talk to me when their careers are over.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't forget what Crosby did lol. I've been arguing Crosby over McDavid for years.

This year's playoffs is recency bias, because it's historic. McDavid has now put up the best regular season and playoff run production wise second to Lemieux and Gretzky.

Sid wasn't even close to either of those.

MacKinnon just bested Sid's top scoring season by 20pts. Nate's better than Sid.

 

[Gurglesons]

You make my point.

Sid's greatness is work ethic combined with skill combined with longevity. The longevity likely is a by product of the first two.

McDavid has looked like a generational talent, but there have been many of those.

Read my example of Solon and the King above.

Crosby has played 180 playoff games. McDavid 74.

Talk to me when their careers are over.

There has been nobody that has produced like McDavid in the modern game in the playoffs or regular season.

You are really looking at this with a clear Penguins bias.

MacKinnon just bested Sid's top scoring season by 20pts. Nate's better than Sid.

Nah. MacKinnnon is overrated.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

There has been nobody that has produced like McDavid in the modern game in the playoffs or regular season.

You are really looking at this with a clear Penguins bias.



Nah. MacKinnnon is overrated.

Kucherov beat Sid's best season twice, this year by 24pts, and has two Cups. Better than Sid.

 

[Tom Hanks]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805639989914431575

 

[Gurglesons]

Kucherov beat Sid's best season twice, this year by 24pts, and has two Cups. Better than Sid.

I think this is where Sid's consistency comes into play. In terms of the raw stats you could make that argument, but Kucherov hasn't consistenly been in the argument for best player and does not have the point finishes that Crosby has in his losing seasons.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805639989914431575

They love this dude. It kinda rocks.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805639989914431575

It's wild how successful and beloved Maurice has been in Florida because everyone thought of that hire as a huge mistake by the Panthers at the time he was brought in.

 

[Trade]

Bob saved 99/103 shots in the four series-clinching victories for a .961 sv%. I wouldn’t have been upset if he won the Conn Smythe, but his overall playoff stats weren’t that spectacular. If they won in 4 or 5, that likely would have been the case. He was basically 09 Fleury (who had a better sv%)

I admittedly said there was 0% chance McDavid deserved the award (towards the end of game 3) and then he proceeded to singlehandedly dominate two straight games.

Much respect to McDavid for willing his team back, it’s a testament to how good of a leader he actually is (which i wasn’t really a believer in).

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Bob saved 99/103 shots in the four series-clinching victories for a 961 sv%. I wouldn’t have been upset if he won the Conn Smythe, but his overall playoff stats weren’t that spectacular. If they won in 4 or 5, that likely would have been the case. He was basically 09 Fleury (who had a better sv%)

I admittedly said there was 0% chance McDavid deserved the award (towards the end of game 3) and then he proceeded to singlehandedly dominate two straight games.

Much respect to McDavid for willing his team back, it’s a testament to how good of a leader he actually is (which i wasn’t really a believer in).

McDavid's leadership is a lot like Sid's in that there's not a lot of talk about either guy standing up and rallying the troops in the lockerroom or anything, but they lead by example on the ice and scoreboard.

Geno's reportedly been the "better" guy in terms of being a vocal leader from his intermission rallying speeches from time to time, to his very vocal and adamant quashing of the Orpik+Adams thing where they wanted Sid to be stripped of the captaincy.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bob saved 99/103 shots in the four series-clinching victories for a 961 sv%. I wouldn’t have been upset if he won the Conn Smythe, but his overall playoff stats weren’t that spectacular. If they won in 4 or 5, that likely would have been the case. He was basically 09 Fleury (who had a better sv%)

I admittedly said there was 0% chance McDavid deserved the award (towards the end of game 3) and then he proceeded to singlehandedly dominate two straight games.

Much respect to McDavid for willing his team back, it’s a testament to how good of a leader he actually is (which i wasn’t really a believer in).

Yeah this is how I feel as well. McDavid really showed up for his team and took it too another level. He couldn't ultimately seal the deal, but his playoff run this year was spectacular and right up there with Sid and Malkin in 09.

 

[Tom Hanks]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805426786257215975

 

[Gurglesons]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805426786257215975

Big Penguins 2015-16 vibes on that D.

As in it is awful.