Around the NHL 2022-2023 *Mod warning in effect pg145

[ezcreepin]

$11.9M of that $14M LTIR total was from Lehner, Weber, and Patrick who played a combined 0 games in the regular season or the playoffs. There is just no way to describe utilizing LTIR for those dollars as a loophole. Putting guys with zero chance of playing for you at any point in the year is the undisputed purpose of LTIR. We can debate whether using it for guys who return is a loophole or not, but using it for guys who are done for the year and not even with the team on a day-to-day basis is for sure not a loophole.

Now, they did have Stone on the LTIR until the start of the playoffs and then brought him back once playoffs started. They did benefit for sure. But the $14M over the cap number is very, very misleading about the cost of their playoff roster vs the cap. FWIW, the 20 guys they dressed in the playoffs fit under the cap every night. If the league were going to combat this practice, forcing your 20 man roster to be cap compliant each night would be the only way to do it without completely changing how the salary cap is calculated.

Stone had a 2nd back surgery mid-season. He had been trying to rehab the back before the first surgery, the first surgery didn't fix the issue and he was in and out of the lineup with pain. I just don't see him returning for playoffs as an issue.

I'm going to be honest and say that there was a bit of confusion on my side when I checked capfriendly initially. Then I saw some tweets made about Vegas/Florida's ability to have their current roster using LTIR and so I was making some assumptions. At the time I looked, it wasn't clear how they fit the players under the cap, so if my assumptions are wrong then so be it. However in saying that, I do know that there are tricks you can use with the cap when you take on a dead contract and put the player on LTIR, giving you exra cap flexibility to spend on other players. I know the Leafs, Lightning, Knights, and apparently Panthers have all done this and I'm not sure if that's necessarily good or bad. I think it opens up big market teams to make moves to help them win that other teams may not be able to do. I can't really say if it's fair or not that small market teams generally wont be able to do these cap tricks, but feelings wise, it feels a bit unfair.

I'd much rather, if the league does not intend to amend some of the rules on earning cap space, that they limit how much flexibility you get more or limit the amount of contracts you can take on (if they don't already). However I'd want to have the cap rise significantly right now than have those LTIR rules changed if I were choosing. I think it's absurd that teams are evaluated at close to a billion dollars yet the league's cap has been essentially stagnant for 4 years.

 

[BluesAL]

Jeez, come back to this thread and see a few of you triggered by criticizing army’s worst move. You can praise army’s greatest moves and criticize his worst ones. That’s part of being a fan and chatting about your GM.

Also, this narrative that Petro “chose” to leave is just flat out wrong and frankly sounds like cope. “Wah he left my team so now he’s the villain bcuz I bleed blue and I don’t know how to handle my emotions so I’m gonna start throwing f bombs around.”

Truth is Petro was CLEAR about wanting to stay in STL. He also wanted a NMC. Army, to avoid setting a bad precedent in future negotiations, refused to give him one. This led to a stall in negotiations. What do you do when negotiations stall? You try and create leverage. This is exactly what Petro tried to do by taking a visit with Vegas. Army got in his feelings about it and wanted to show he’s the top dog in contract negotiations so he used the money set aside for Petro to sign Krug (probably thinking the combo of Parayko’s growth into a no. 1 + signing the top defensive FA that year would make up for the loss of Petro). The Krug signing blindsided Petro and forced his hand to sign elsewhere since obviously the Blues didn’t have the $$ or cap space for him anymore.

Fast forward to now and Army’s bet utterly blew up in his face. Parayko never really took another step forward and Krug’s contract is now an albatross due to his inability to stay on the ice from injury. Meanwhile Petro lead another Stanley Cup winning team in ice time and played a huge role in the run.

Nobodys simping for anyone and frankly using these type of words just shows how emotional some of you are about the topic. It’s absolutely appropriate to chat about Doug’s handling of the petro contract the day our former captain is lifting the cup. Jeez, you can really tell petro’s departure sewed some bitter seeds in some of you. He was a great blue and he should still be one. Nevertheless, life goes on. LGB!

 

[simon IC]

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[Renard]

The long suffering Vegas fans and top 3 defenseman of all time Alex Pietrangelo have won the Stanley Cup!

Long suffering? Are you being sarcastic? Do you know how long Vegas has been in the league?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Jeez, come back to this thread and see a few of you triggered by criticizing army’s worst move. You can praise army’s greatest moves and criticize his worst ones. That’s part of being a fan and chatting about your GM.

Also, this narrative that Petro “chose” to leave is just flat out wrong and frankly sounds like cope. “Wah he left my team so now he’s the villain bcuz I bleed blue and I don’t know how to handle my emotions so I’m gonna start throwing f bombs around.”

Truth is Petro was CLEAR about wanting to stay in STL. He also wanted a NMC. Army, to avoid setting a bad precedent in future negotiations, refused to give him one. This led to a stall in negotiations. What do you do when negotiations stall? You try and create leverage. This is exactly what Petro tried to do by taking a visit with Vegas. Army got in his feelings about it and wanted to show he’s the top dog in contract negotiations so he used the money set aside for Petro to sign Krug (probably thinking the combo of Parayko’s growth into a no. 1 + signing the top defensive FA that year would make up for the loss of Petro). The Krug signing blindsided Petro and forced his hand to sign elsewhere since obviously the Blues didn’t have the $$ or cap space for him anymore.

Fast forward to now and Army’s bet utterly blew up in his face. Parayko never really took another step forward and Krug’s contract is now an albatross due to his inability to stay on the ice from injury. Meanwhile Petro lead another Stanley Cup winning team in ice time and played a huge role in the run.

Nobodys simping for anyone and frankly using these type of words just shows how emotional some of you are about the topic. It’s absolutely appropriate to chat about Doug’s handling of the petro contract the day our former captain is lifting the cup. Jeez, you can really tell petro’s departure sewed some bitter seeds in some of you. He was a great blue and he should still be one. Nevertheless, life goes on. LGB!

Oh my. that narrative completely ignores important fact that Petro left bc Army wouldn’t pay him as much money as he wanted. we can criticize army for undervaluing his top defefenseman, but the rest is just narrative Petros camp invented to paint army as bad guy and not look like greedy player that turned down richest contract in franchise history bc he wanted more $.

 

[Xerloris]

Oh my. that narrative completely ignores important fact that Petro left bc Army wouldn’t pay him as much money as he wanted. we can criticize army for undervaluing his top defefenseman, but the rest is just narrative Petros camp invented to paint army as bad guy and not look like greedy player that turned down richest contract in franchise history bc he wanted more $.

Some people just don't have the ability to comprehend things.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Jeez, come back to this thread and see a few of you triggered by criticizing army’s worst move. You can praise army’s greatest moves and criticize his worst ones. That’s part of being a fan and chatting about your GM.

Also, this narrative that Petro “chose” to leave is just flat out wrong and frankly sounds like cope. “Wah he left my team so now he’s the villain bcuz I bleed blue and I don’t know how to handle my emotions so I’m gonna start throwing f bombs around.”

Truth is Petro was CLEAR about wanting to stay in STL. He also wanted a NMC. Army, to avoid setting a bad precedent in future negotiations, refused to give him one. This led to a stall in negotiations. What do you do when negotiations stall? You try and create leverage. This is exactly what Petro tried to do by taking a visit with Vegas. Army got in his feelings about it and wanted to show he’s the top dog in contract negotiations so he used the money set aside for Petro to sign Krug (probably thinking the combo of Parayko’s growth into a no. 1 + signing the top defensive FA that year would make up for the loss of Petro). The Krug signing blindsided Petro and forced his hand to sign elsewhere since obviously the Blues didn’t have the $$ or cap space for him anymore.

Fast forward to now and Army’s bet utterly blew up in his face. Parayko never really took another step forward and Krug’s contract is now an albatross due to his inability to stay on the ice from injury. Meanwhile Petro lead another Stanley Cup winning team in ice time and played a huge role in the run.

Nobodys simping for anyone and frankly using these type of words just shows how emotional some of you are about the topic. It’s absolutely appropriate to chat about Doug’s handling of the petro contract the day our former captain is lifting the cup. Jeez, you can really tell petro’s departure sewed some bitter seeds in some of you. He was a great blue and he should still be one. Nevertheless, life goes on. LGB!

Armstrong and Stillman had already made their best offer in an in-person meeting just prior to the trade deadline. It did not include a full NMC. Pietro turned it down. There was no more ‘creating leverage’ at that point. Both parties knew he was moving on when the free agent deadline arrived.

 

[BluesAL]

Oh my. that narrative completely ignores important fact that Petro left bc Army wouldn’t pay him as much money as he wanted. we can criticize army for undervaluing his top defefenseman, but the rest is just narrative Petros camp invented to paint army as bad guy and not look like greedy player that turned down richest contract in franchise history bc he wanted more $.

Why would Petro’s camp need to paint a narrative to STL fans? He already left. If anything it’s Army’s camp that needed to sell a “greedy” narrative since he’s the one who’s still here answering to fans and ownership. Aside from that, the greedy narrative goes out the window when you see Petro signed for $8.8M. An absolute bargain number for a #1 D man. What Petro was stubborn about was the NMC and when you factor in the health issues within his family it makes sense that he wanted a guarantee he and his family wouldn’t be moved.

Last, if coming up with enough $$ was the issue for Army/Stillman they wouldn’t have given Krug $6.5m and a 2B/3rd line winger in Saad $4.5m. Those 2 contracts alone would’ve been enough to keep Petro. It was the NMC that Army was bent on denying which was my main point in the original post. That’s where Army screwed this up. He should’ve just conceded the NMC and he could’ve easily hidden behind the excuse that that was a 1 time deal for our cup winning captain if he wanted to avoid setting a precedent of handing them out.

It’s ok to criticize army’s worst move. We don’t have to use terms like greedy for Petro and disrespect him. He was a GREAT Blue. My last post on the topic and LET’S GO BLUES!

 

[Xerloris]

Why would Petro’s camp need to paint a narrative to STL fans? He already left. If anything it’s Army’s camp that needed to sell a “greedy” narrative since he’s the one who’s still here answering to fans and ownership. Aside from that, the greedy narrative goes out the window when you see Petro signed for $8.8M. An absolute bargain number for a #1 D man. What Petro was stubborn about was the NMC and when you factor in the health issues within his family it makes sense that he wanted a guarantee he and his family wouldn’t be moved.

Last, if coming up with enough $$ was the issue for Army/Stillman they wouldn’t have given Krug $6.5m and a 2B/3rd line winger in Saad $4.5m. Those 2 contracts alone would’ve been enough to keep Petro. It was the NMC that Army was bent on denying which was my main point in the original post. That’s where Army screwed this up. He should’ve just conceded the NMC and he could’ve easily hidden behind the excuse that that was a 1 time deal for our cup winning captain if he wanted to avoid setting a precedent of handing them out.

It’s ok to criticize army’s worst move. We don’t have to use terms like greedy for Petro and disrespect him. He was a GREAT Blue. My last post on the topic and LET’S GO BLUES!

Well the issue is that the rumors were being spun before FA hit. When they were negotiating. So that was Pietrangelo trying to use the fans to get leverage. I thought anyone could see and understand that by now?

Let me say it for you loud and clear. Pietrangelo was a greedy cheapskate asshole that wouldn't even pick up the tab when going out to dinner with the team. He also showed that he's a genuine piece of shit for using fans as leverage to try and get a contract he wanted. Grade A douche nozzle piece of shit. Still a good hockey player though. Know who else was a piece of shit but good hockey player? Gilmore, Shanahan, just off the top of my head.

 

[Majorityof1]

Oh my. that narrative completely ignores important fact that Petro left bc Army wouldn’t pay him as much money as he wanted. we can criticize army for undervaluing his top defefenseman, but the rest is just narrative Petros camp invented to paint army as bad guy and not look like greedy player that turned down richest contract in franchise history bc he wanted more $.

You keep saying that, But your narrative ignores the fact he signed for less total money than the Blues offered. With the 8th year, the difference in the AAV is almost completely negated. The other factors seem much more important than money when you are looking at a $64M Blues offer (based on rumors from several different sources) vs $61.6M offer he did sign. Sure, he could earn more with Vegas if he signs at 37/38 years old, but he isn't getting $8M. He might not even get the $2.4M difference in contracts at that age.

Another couple mil over the life of the contract would easily beat anything he could earn with the Vegas deal + 1 yr at 37.5 yo. If it was just $$, and Armstrong let him walk over 0.3M more a year, that is just as dumb as letting him walk over no NTC. So I am not sure what your point is regarding money. It still makes Armstrong look bad that he let him walk. It was still a mistake.

 

[Xerloris]

You keep saying that, But your narrative ignores the fact he signed for less total money than the Blues offered. With the 8th year, the difference in the AAV is almost completely negated. The other factors seem much more important than money when you are looking at a $64M Blues offer (based on rumors from several different sources) vs $61.6M offer he did sign. Sure, he could earn more with Vegas if he signs at 37/38 years old, but he isn't getting $8M. He might not even get the $2.4M difference in contracts at that age.

Another couple mil over the life of the contract would easily beat anything he could earn with the Vegas deal + 1 yr at 37.5 yo. If it was just $$, and Armstrong let him walk over 0.3M more a year, that is just as dumb as letting him walk over no NTC. So I am not sure what your point is regarding money. It still makes Armstrong look bad that he let him walk. It was still a mistake.

Vegas also has less taxes than St.Louis does.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

My thing is with the NMC vs no NMC, was it really necessary? I’ll preface this with saying maybe it’s too simplistic of an idea from the outside looking in, and I get wanting it in from Petro’s POV. But looking at it, it’s been reported there was a NTC, so that eliminates that part. The other parts are either being bought out or sent to the minors (if I’m missing anything let me know). When has this team ever sent a vet, especially one of Petro’s caliber and tenure, ever been sent down or bought out? Especially under Armstrong. Obviously there’s no guarantee that Army even lasts the full 8 years of the deal, and from Petro’s pov there’s no guarantee that a new GM, in this hypothetical situation, doesn’t do look to do one of those things. But I’d imagine if it got to that point the team is probably older and on the downswing anyways so Stillman and Co. probably just say keep him till the end of the deal and go from there.

At the end of the day, I think there’s blame to go all around, but it is truly a shame Petro wasn’t a lifelong Blue.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

My thing is with the NMC vs no NMC, was it really necessary? I’ll preface this with saying maybe it’s too simplistic of an idea from the outside looking in, and I get wanting it in from Petro’s POV. But looking at it, it’s been reported there was a NTC, so that eliminates that part. The other parts are either being bought out or sent to the minors (if I’m missing anything let me know). When has this team ever sent a vet, especially one of Petro’s caliber and tenure, ever been sent down or bought out? Especially under Armstrong. Obviously there’s no guarantee that Army even lasts the full 8 years of the deal, and from Petro’s pov there’s no guarantee that a new GM, in this hypothetical situation, doesn’t do look to do one of those things. But I’d imagine if it got to that point the team is probably older and on the downswing anyways so Stillman and Co. probably just say keep him till the end of the deal and go from there.

At the end of the day, I think there’s blame to go all around, but it is truly a shame Petro wasn’t a lifelong Blue.

Generally agree overall but one point of clarification- nmc doesnt prevent you from being bought out. oel had nmc. Which is another reason why the whole nmc narrative is stupid. He left bc he wanted more $$$ and maybe we should given him more.

 

[Thallis]

Generally agree overall but one point of clarification- nmc doesnt prevent you from being bought out. oel had nmc. Which is another reason why the whole nmc narrative is stupid. He left bc he wanted more $$$ and maybe we should given him more.

If the NMC isn't a big deal, then there's no reason not to give him one.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

If the NMC isn't a big deal, then there's no reason not to give him one.

And if that was all it took we woulda done it. But the money was never a fit. Remember Petro camp complaining that army said to them, I paraphrase, if we can sgreee on the structure would you take x? And Petro camp was like “they wouldn’t even talk structure, how couid we agree?“ That is the tell. They wanted more $ than we ever offered. And maybe they were right to. I never begrudge player for wanting to get $. Most folks do. But don’t try to con us fans.

 

[Majorityof1]

My thing is with the NMC vs no NMC, was it really necessary? I’ll preface this with saying maybe it’s too simplistic of an idea from the outside looking in, and I get wanting it in from Petro’s POV. But looking at it, it’s been reported there was a NTC, so that eliminates that part. The other parts are either being bought out or sent to the minors (if I’m missing anything let me know). When has this team ever sent a vet, especially one of Petro’s caliber and tenure, ever been sent down or bought out? Especially under Armstrong. Obviously there’s no guarantee that Army even lasts the full 8 years of the deal, and from Petro’s pov there’s no guarantee that a new GM, in this hypothetical situation, doesn’t do look to do one of those things. But I’d imagine if it got to that point the team is probably older and on the downswing anyways so Stillman and Co. probably just say keep him till the end of the deal and go from there.

At the end of the day, I think there’s blame to go all around, but it is truly a shame Petro wasn’t a lifelong Blue.

The thing with an NMC,is it protects you from your GM using the AHL to strong-arm you into waiving trade protection. You can submit a 10-team list, but the GM can say "Hey, you don't want to go to Arizona, but how's Springfield?" Arizona may be a joke of a franchise, but it's still better than playing in the AHL. It offers planes instead of bus rides, nicer hotels, better per diem, and access to better training facilities, even if the arena sucks. An NTC without a NMC doesn't mean much if GM really, really wants to move you.

 

[Majorityof1]

And if that was all it took we woulda done it. But the money was never a fit. Remember Petro camp complaining that army said to them, I paraphrase, if we can sgreee on the structure would you take x? And Petro camp was like “they wouldn’t even talk structure, how couid we agree?“ That is the tell. They wanted more $ than we ever offered. And maybe they were right to. I never begrudge player for wanting to get $. Most folks do. But don’t try to con us fans.

I know you don't like Rutherford but he interviewed two agents and they both said negotiating AAv before structure is bizarre and not how things are done.

Agent 2 said it best: That seems bizarre. I don’t know if there’s some miscommunication there or what because all these things play off one another. If my term is longer, maybe I’ll accept a lower AAV. If I get a no-move clause, maybe I’ll accept a lower AAV. They all affect how much I’m willing to accept. I think it’s very, very difficult to ask someone to agree to the value of the deal without those other factors." - JR article 9/22/20

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

The thing with an NMC,is it protects you from your GM using the AHL to strong-arm you into waiving trade protection. You can submit a 10-team list, but the GM can say "Hey, you don't want to go to Arizona, but how's Springfield?" Arizona may be a joke of a franchise, but it's still better than playing in the AHL. It offers planes instead of bus rides, nicer hotels, better per diem, and access to better training facilities, even if the arena sucks. An NTC without a NMC doesn't mean much if GM really, really wants to move you.

See, I didn’t think about it totally like that, that’s a good point. I guess the point I was trying to make is idk if I buy the idea that the NMC was the biggest hold up in the deal (generally speaking, not implying that’s what you’re saying)

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I know you don't like Rutherford but he interviewed two agents and they both said negotiating AAv before structure is bizarre and not how things are done.

Agent 2 said it best: That seems bizarre. I don’t know if there’s some miscommunication there or what because all these things play off one another. If my term is longer, maybe I’ll accept a lower AAV. If I get a no-move clause, maybe I’ll accept a lower AAV. They all affect how much I’m willing to accept. I think it’s very, very difficult to ask someone to agree to the value of the deal without those other factors." - JR article 9/22/20

“The Blues’ latest offer is believed to be eight years at $8 million per season, which sources say is less than Pietrangelo is willing to accept.”

 

[Xerloris]

I know you don't like Rutherford but he interviewed two agents and they both said negotiating AAv before structure is bizarre and not how things are done.

Agent 2 said it best: That seems bizarre. I don’t know if there’s some miscommunication there or what because all these things play off one another. If my term is longer, maybe I’ll accept a lower AAV. If I get a no-move clause, maybe I’ll accept a lower AAV. They all affect how much I’m willing to accept. I think it’s very, very difficult to ask someone to agree to the value of the deal without those other factors." - JR article 9/22/20

See I think it was more like Pietrangelo wanted signing bonuses and maybe some other things and if we don't know the money, Army can't get Stillman to agree to a signing Bonus since like I have mentioned previously, he's not a billionaire.

 

[Majorityof1]

“The Blues’ latest offer is believed to be eight years at $8 million per season, which sources say is less than Pietrangelo is willing to accept.”

Yea. The rumour was 8x8 with less bonus money and less trade protection than he wanted. It was never rumoured , that I saw, that the $64M was the sticking point. He ended up taking less total money to sign in Vegas $8,8v7 is $61,6M.

What you are saying doesn't make sense. If all Petro cared about was AAV, then why wouldn't he agree to working out the structure later if they agreed to AAV. He didn't want to negotiate AAV first because he knew structure was an issue and important to him. He knew Armstrong had never given the amount of bonus money and trade protection he wanted. So AAV would be moot, or at least a different conversation when he didn't get what he wanted in terms of structure.

Its bad negotiation to throw away something that is less important to you, but important to the other party before getting what is important to you in a negotiation. GMs care about AAV because that is what is constrained by the cap. So agreeing to AAV without getting his bonus and NMC would be giving all his leverage away in those other negotiations.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Yea. The rumour was 8x8 with less bonus money and less trade protection than he wanted. It was never rumoured , that I saw, that the $64M was the sticking point. He ended up taking less total money to sign in Vegas $8,8v7 is $61,6M.

What you are saying doesn't make sense. If all Petro cared about was AAV, then why wouldn't he agree to working out the structure later if they agreed to AAV. He didn't want to negotiate AAV first because he knew structure was an issue and important to him. He knew Armstrong had never given the amount of bonus money and trade protection he wanted. So AAV would be moot, or at least a different conversation when he didn't get what he wanted in terms of structure.

Its bad negotiation to throw away something that is less important to you, but important to the other party before getting what is important to you in a negotiation. GMs care about AAV because that is what is constrained by the cap. So agreeing to AAV without getting his bonus and NMC would be giving all his leverage away in those other negotiations.

If Petro didn’t care about the dollars why was he asking for over $1mm more AAV than blurs were offering? I don’t doubt they had differing views on structure and protection, but again they were far apart on $. That was the deal killer. Occams razor.

 

[joe galiba]

hockey is a sport and it is also a business for both the owners and the players

if the team decides not sign someone because they think it is in the ultimate best interest of the franchise I am ok with that, though sometimes the team may make a mistake
if a player decides to do what they think is in their and their families best interest, I am ok with that, but sometimes doesn’t turn out as the best decision either

it is all ok, in the end it is just a game for entertainment

 

[CaliforniaBlues310]

Even with the extra year, didn’t we have to offer somewhere close to $9.25mil to match take home money since Nevada is a tax free state?

 

[Majorityof1]

Even with the extra year, didn’t we have to offer somewhere close to $9.25mil to match take home money since Nevada is a tax free state?

I don't think so. I could be wrong. I am definitely not a tax accountant. But MO state tax is like 5% at the high end. That's would be like $500k on $10M. But that only factors in on home games. You pay the state income tax where you play. So home games you get the tax benefit, but away games, maybe not. So its more like $250k on $10M.

Pietrangelo makes less than $10M. So we are looking at less that$250k more without factoring in the extra year. That also ignores all the ways rich people with very good accountants have to minimize their taxable income.