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Ghost of Ethan Hunt

The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
Jun 23, 2018
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Not hating on him for having a preference but this kind of reeks of "Look at how controversial I can be. Please give me a job in hockey media so that I can stay relevant."
Dubinsky's Estimated Career Earnings
q.svg
: $54,131,665 + ~$2M due still.

He is likely just speaking his mind & has always hated Sid. He went on to say "Ovi just shut up & played" (vs. Sid who's always Crysby).

He obviously doesn't need the $, nor fame of a media job. I always liked him going back to his NYR days.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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yep, and that's why Dubinsky would have fewer Cups.

???

20190918mfpenssports13-4-1572548480.jpg


Oh and don't forget about his boy moving a finals, I never will. One of the three times the Stanley Cup was rescheduled. You know WWII, Covid and a concert taking advantage from the team with the better record....

gary-bettman-smile.jpg


Ovie is the same caliber player as Crosby, both in the 9-12ish best players of all-time area. Similar guys for me, one gets a ton of hype from Canadian media, he has handled it well but he is the third best Penguin I have ever seen, people need to stop it with the top 5 garbage on Sid in my opinion...
 

Winger98

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???

20190918mfpenssports13-4-1572548480.jpg


Oh and don't forget about his boy moving a finals, I never will. One of the three times the Stanley Cup was rescheduled. You know WWII, Covid and a concert taking advantage from the team with the better record....

gary-bettman-smile.jpg


Ovie is the same caliber player as Crosby, both in the 9-12ish best players of all-time area. Similar guys for me, one gets a ton of hype from Canadian media, he has handled it well but he is the third best Penguin I have ever seen, people need to stop it with the top 5 garbage on Sid in my opinion...

That's like saying Fedorov is the third best Wing you've ever seen. I'm not fan of Ovechkin, nice player, but not a guy I'd start a team with. He plays a less premium position, is far weaker defensively, and I don't see him as a guy who can elevate linemates the way Crosby has been able to. If you swapped Crosby and Ovechkin, I think Crosby still has more cups.
 

Ghost of Ethan Hunt

The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
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That's like saying Fedorov is the third best Wing you've ever seen. I'm not fan of Ovechkin, nice player, but not a guy I'd start a team with. He plays a less premium position, is far weaker defensively, and I don't see him as a guy who can elevate linemates the way Crosby has been able to. If you swapped Crosby and Ovechkin, I think Crosby still has more cups.

(shuffles deck)

724G currently. Ovi pacing to break the Gretzky All-Time G scoring record, or come very close = "nice player, but not a guy I'd start a team with" ??

Vs.

476G but, but, but he has lots of secondary assists & is best buddies with Pierre & other media lapdogs. He's the next one, golden boy, media darling, Uncle Gary said so. 1 50G+ & 1 40G+ season, wow.

Gretzky
Howe
Lidstrom
Orr
Hasek
Ovi


just off the top of my head, that's 6 guys I'd pick instead of Crysby to start a team, but there's plenty more:

Yzerman, Messier, Coffey, Robinson, Bourque, Bossy, McJesus (yep), prime Fetisov & Fedorov, prime Stastny, prime LaFontaine, etc.


If Uncle Gary & the refs didn't rearrange the schedule & blow certain calls/non-calls, Crysby would've been Cupless in 2009! Fact!
 
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The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
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That's like saying Fedorov is the third best Wing you've ever seen. I'm not fan of Ovechkin, nice player, but not a guy I'd start a team with. He plays a less premium position, is far weaker defensively, and I don't see him as a guy who can elevate linemates the way Crosby has been able to. If you swapped Crosby and Ovechkin, I think Crosby still has more cups.

Greatest Goal scorer of all-time.

On pure talent and this is going to be blasphemous for some, Fedorov is easily the most talented Red Wings player I have seen. More talented then Crosby as well for the record, not that his resume stacks up.

Again, Alex Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer in the history of the league. That means something. Considering in his first cup run Malkin was absolutely better than Crosby, taking him away is a big deal for young Sid. I guess he has Backstrom behind him that is nice, now Mike Green is his #1 D-man for most of his early years and his organization has a history of folding like a cheap suit? Do they get carried to the post-season if he goes down? Kuzy is off the board, he doesn't get drafted without Ovie, it changes the whole team really.

Both guys for me are in the same tier as Lidstrom though really.

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Hasek
Beliveau
Jagr
Hull

I don't think either guy is eclipsing those players at this point in their careers. Certainly not in the top 5, I don't see it. Now you have the Messier, Crosby, Ovie, Lidstrom discussions. So there it is, that is how I feel about them. Crosby missed a boat load of time. His most memorable moment is actually the Olympic goal pretty easily so not a league moment. He was the third best center for them in their First finals win. He has the two worst Conn Smythe victories I think I have witnessed, being outplayed by Kessel, Letang and Guentzel during those two runs. He has been a pretty wonderful ambassador for the game no doubt. I find people trying to place him in conversations with Howe or thinking he could even get there a little nutty. Honestly Ovie being the best ever at something so important could put him over Hull, I see that easier than Crosby. Flop another cup on the run in and their resumes look pretty similar with one guy having been the greatest at something in league history. Very comparable, have never seen the gap that has been presented.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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That's like saying Fedorov is the third best Wing you've ever seen. I'm not fan of Ovechkin, nice player, but not a guy I'd start a team with. He plays a less premium position, is far weaker defensively, and I don't see him as a guy who can elevate linemates the way Crosby has been able to. If you swapped Crosby and Ovechkin, I think Crosby still has more cups.

Eeeh... I can't agree with you, Winger.

Ovi is absolutely a guy I'd start a team with. He's always been a truly elite piece that can simply take over games. He's FAR more than a "nice player". Everyone is absolutely right to include Ovi and Crosby tight in the same group near the very top of players in the history of the game.
 
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Winger98

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Greatest Goal scorer of all-time.

On pure talent and this is going to be blasphemous for some, Fedorov is easily the most talented Red Wings player I have seen. More talented then Crosby as well for the record, not that his resume stacks up.

Again, Alex Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer in the history of the league. That means something. Considering in his first cup run Malkin was absolutely better than Crosby, taking him away is a big deal for young Sid. I guess he has Backstrom behind him that is nice, now Mike Green is his #1 D-man for most of his early years and his organization has a history of folding like a cheap suit? Do they get carried to the post-season if he goes down? Kuzy is off the board, he doesn't get drafted without Ovie, it changes the whole team really.

Both guys for me are in the same tier as Lidstrom though really.

It means the exact same thing that it meant for Brett Hull until Hull got onto a team with two centers who could actually make his linemates better: a participation prize. I don't see Ovechkin taking over games, I don't see him being good enough defensively, and if he could have a scoring line built around him then Washington wouldn't have so badly needed Kuznetsov to come along to make that seccond line worth a lick. Ovechkin scores a lot of goals, but he rides shotgun. You need a good/great center to go with him, and then you need another good/great center - or someone who can functionally play that role - for another line.

In Pittsburgh, Crosby has taken the hardest match-ups. Who did he go against when he won that first cup? He went against Zetterberg, who I would lay money on as the best one-on-one defender in the NHL at the time. He takes a ton of heat off Malkin and every other forward in that Penguins group, and you take Crosby off that first Penguins cup team Staal is then a pretty run of the mill second line center and they have no one who can take that third line. I don't think pittsburgh even makes the finals at that point and, if they do, I think that Wings team takes them in five, maybe six because of injuries. I think it's debatable if Pittsburgh wins any cups because they would have to scramble to make the middle6 of their team work.

Would Crosby have as strong of a team in Washington as he had in Pittsburgh? Probably not but I don't think it's far off because he would have Backstrom/Semin anchoring that second line behind him. Brooks Laiche then becomes a very good 3C and Crosby does what he's done for a lot of his career: elevate pretty good players into first liners.
 

Winger98

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Eeeh... I can't agree with you, Winger.

Ovi is absolutely a guy I'd start a team with. He's always been a truly elite piece that can simply take over games. He's FAR more than a "nice player". Everyone is absolutely right to include Ovi and Crosby tight in the same group near the very top of players in the history of the game.

If you don't have someone better, sure, you start a team with Ovechkin. Ovechkin is a nice player like Brett Hull was a nice player, or Luc Robataille, or Shanny, or Hossa, or Kovalchuk. Who would you start a team with, Yzerman or Shanny? Fedorov or Hull? You go with the center.

If I had to start a team with a wing from the group around Ovi's time...I think I might go with Kane. He has lesser numbers, but he has proven he can take a scoring line and make it work as the main guy on it. I don't have to worry about getting another all star level center to carry it, I just have to get a beaten up Michal Handzus.
 
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ricky0034

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If you don't have someone better, sure, you start a team with Ovechkin. Ovechkin is a nice player like Brett Hull was a nice player, or Luc Robataille, or Shanny, or Hossa, or Kovalchuk. Who would you start a team with, Yzerman or Shanny? Fedorov or Hull? You go with the center.

If I had to start a team with a wing from the group around Ovi's time...I think I might go with Kane. He has lesser numbers, but he has proven he can take a scoring line and make it work as the main guy on it. I don't have to worry about getting another all star level center to carry it, I just have to get a beaten up Michal Handzus.

Ovechkin was 3rd in the league in points and 4th in goals as a rookie and his most productive teammate was 94th in the league in points

second year, 13th in points and 4th in goals and his most productive teammate was 38th in the league in points

third year he had 65 goals and also lead the league in points and his most productive teammate was 42nd in the league in points
 
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Winger98

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Ovechkin was 3rd in the league in points and 4th in goals as a rookie and his most productive teammate was 94th in the league in points

second year, 13th in points and 4th in goals and his most productive teammate was 38th in the league in points

third year he had 65 goals and also lead the league in points and his most productive teammate was 42nd in the league in points

And if Ovi's play elevated his linemates don't you think his high tide would have raised some boats higher than 38th in the league? I really don't see why Washington's track record before they got Kuznetsov isn't saying more here.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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If you don't have someone better, sure, you start a team with Ovechkin. Ovechkin is a nice player like Brett Hull was a nice player, or Luc Robataille, or Shanny, or Hossa, or Kovalchuk. Who would you start a team with, Yzerman or Shanny? Fedorov or Hull? You go with the center.

If I had to start a team with a wing from the group around Ovi's time...I think I might go with Kane. He has lesser numbers, but he has proven he can take a scoring line and make it work as the main guy on it. I don't have to worry about getting another all star level center to carry it, I just have to get a beaten up Michal Handzus.

If you cannot build around Ovie, then you're not a very good GM. I get the playmaking winger appeal of Kane, he is probably in that next layer with Sakic, Yzermam, Bourque, Richard for me. But I am fascinated to see you making this argument juxtaposed to something we have been arguing in terms of roster construction. You need an elite franchise level player and wingers can be okay there, Ovie has certainly been an elite franchise player for all of his tenure in the league. Every guy needs help, let's go back to your own comment the opposite way I think if you swap him and Crosby which like I said is dangerous Malkin and Staal battery down the middle with the best goal scorer of all time is really hard to slow down. You also gift him a better prime D-man in terms of Letang and Gonchar over Green... Crosby was surrounded by more talent for most of his career. I realize most don't like this because of the trouble Crosby had trouble with wingers, having watched that with Datsyuk over the years, some guys just don't click.

Staal was actually the biggest reason for their win over us to me. Malkin was better than Datsyuk, but in the second final Staal really handed Filppula his lunch. Yes Zetterberg beat Crosby heads up, he always did, just like he did Toews, their type of play style was nearly impossible to win that matchup with, he was kind of king of the two-way grinding matchup center for a while there.

Backstrom is a fabulous player, but once Kuzy came along and you could interchange them there is a reason the top line was always Ovechkin. He is the guy you sent your best over the boards for, he is the chalk talk player and line driver. It might not be in a classic puck dominant role, but it was dominant none the less. In my lifetime I can only think of him and Lindros in terms of the sheer agony of they can do what they want and play an overpowering style. Because it was before my time so I have to rely on it and what I have seen but that was also a huge part of Howe and Bobby Hull's success.

***As a note and I hope most understand this when I am listing Hull in the top ten that is Bobby and not Brett.

Also while we have talked about Toews being overrated a lot, he is a really good hockey player, that he was always on another line is important. Crosby always had another threat. Yeah Ovie couldn't drag teams with Captain Chris Clark playing #2C at times when he was younger, not a huge shocker. Kuzy was important because no player in the league has ever won with the talent you're looking for out of young Ovechkin. That he was rolling off President Trophies with that group to me shows me just how good he was, they were flawed in a lot of ways when he was at his absolute peak in the late 00's in my opinion. He did his part and then some.
 
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Winger98

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If you cannot build around Ovie, then you're not a very good GM. I get the playmaking winger appeal of Kane, he is probably in that next layer with Sakic, Yzermam, Bourque, Richard for me. But I am fascinated to see you making this argument juxtaposed to something we have been arguing in terms of roster construction. You need an elite franchise level player and wingers can be okay there, Ovie has certainly been an elite franchise player for all of his tenure in the league. Every guy needs help, let's go back to your own comment the opposite way I think if you swap him and Crosby which like I said is dangerous Malkin and Staal battery down the middle with the best goal scorer of all time is really hard to slow down. You also gift him a better prime D-man in terms of Letang and Gonchar over Green... Crosby was surrounded by more talent for most of his career. I realize most don't like this because of the trouble Crosby had trouble with wingers, having watched that with Datsyuk over the years, some guys just don't click.

Staal was actually the biggest reason for their win over us to me. Malkin was better than Datsyuk, but in the second final Staal really handed Filppula his lunch. Yes Zetterberg beat Crosby heads up, he always did, just like he did Toews, their type of play style was nearly impossible to win that matchup with, he was kind of king of the two-way grinding matchup center for a while there.

Backstrom is a fabulous player, but once Kuzy came along and you could interchange them there is a reason the top line was always Ovechkin. He is the guy you sent your best over the boards for, he is the chalk talk player and line driver. It might not be in a classic puck dominant role, but it was dominant none the less. In my lifetime I can only think of him and Lindros in terms of the sheer agony of they can do what they want and play an overpowering style. Because it was before my time so I have to rely on it and what I have seen but that was also a huge part of Howe and Bobby Hull's success.

***As a note and I hope most understand this when I am listing Hull in the top ten that is Bobby and not Brett.

Also while we have talked about Toews being overrated a lot, he is a really good hockey player, that he was always on another line is important. Crosby always had another threat. Yeah Ovie couldn't drag teams with Captain Chris Clark playing #2C at times when he was younger, not a huge shocker. Kuzy was important because no player in the league has ever won with the talent you're looking for out of young Ovechkin. That he was rolling off President Trophies with that group to me shows me just how good he was, they were flawed in a lot of ways when he was at his absolute peak in the late 00's in my opinion. He did his part and then some.

I've always been a bigger proponent of building around centers than wings. Go back to before the last draft when I was pretty indifferent at picking fourth and pushed for Lundell or Askarov as much as anyone else. If necessity means we have to build through the wings, we build through the wings, and I think it can be made to work - especially as the league becomes more watered down. But give me two top centers over one top center and one top wing any day.

The only reason Staal could feast on those third line match-ups was because of Crosby/Malkin ahead of him. You take out Crosby, and Staal is suddenly going against Datsyuk - a match-up I like a lot more than what we got. And Flip is going against Pitts fourth line, which I really like. You take out Crosby, though, and I'm not sold that Pittsburgh gets past those Philly teams and that the legacy of Carter/Richards in Philly doesn't become far different, and maybe LA doesn't have a cup.

Washington eventually built a winner around Ovechkin but, even as you note in defending Ovi, they had to go out and get that second center. You could always flip the argument and say Backstrom is the one who couldn't make a second line work, but I've come across very few centers of Backstrom's caliber and style who couldn't make a line work. Meanwhile, I've already gave a list of goal scoring wings who I haven't seen any push back on not building lines around. And they weren't bad goal scoring wings.

Ovechkin can find the back of the net, which is necessary to win, but I have never been impressed with his ability to make a line work on his own. He's always required people to feed him.
 

MBH

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As much as I love Ovechkin and I hated Crosby early in his career, it's hard for me to rank Ovie higher.
Removing all bias, I have to go with Crosby. Those last two cups, especially, showed how well rounded his game was.

The thing that gives me some pause is Malkin.
I don't know how you account for Malkin. Obviously, that helped Crosby having a 2C who could do what he does. And some times it wasn't 1C/2C but 1A/1B - with Malkin as 1A.

Frankly, part of me wonders about taking Malkin over Ovechkin.
 
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lomekian

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For me Crosby & Ovi are interchangeable in terms of who you'd build a Franchise with. Both are truly elite players. Crosby is in a premium position and elevates some team-mates, but equally Ovi can score goals at an elite level alongside total mediocrity. People always compare cups, but half the teams Ovi played in were either elevated by him or only built for the playoffs. Sid gets more points overall, but Ovechkin not only brings more excitement but also can do more on his own.

Both extraordinary players tho!
 
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raymond23

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Chychrun with a hat trick the other night and now 12 goals on the season. Legit 1d and probably the future captain of Arizona based on what their board is saying.

I believe we drafted Hronek with the 2nd round pick that we got for trading back. And we used the freed up cap space to sign Nielsen. But man would it be nice to have a 23 year old Chychrun right now...
 
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MBH

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Chychrun with a hat trick the other night and now 12 goals on the season. Legit 1d and probably the future captain of Arizona based on what their board is saying.

I believe we drafted Hronek with the 2nd round pick that we got for trading back. And we used the freed up cap space to sign Nielsen. But man would it be nice to have a 23 year old Chychrun right now...

Honestly, I felt like it was a good trade until a) they drafted Cholowski and b) they signed Nielsen.

From what I remember, there were a lot of whispers about Chychrun's hockey sense.
I think I wanted Fabbro.
And then when we made the trade, i wanted Rubtsov, and he's in bustland now.

So...
 
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The Zetterberg Era

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Honestly, I felt like it was a good trade until a) they drafted Cholowski and b) they signed Nielsen.

From what I remember, there were a lot of whispers about Chychrun's hockey sense.
I think I wanted Fabbro.
And then when we made the trade, i wanted Rubtsov, and he's in bustland now.

So...

Pretty much where I was at the time. The trade was also made to make a run at Stamkos, which some experts even gave us a chance on. Turns out we had no chance and Holland should have back-channeled that better but that part is often ignored in this context.

Ilitch told them to sign the second best option after and I know we hate it but that actually was Nielsen...
 
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Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
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Honestly, I felt like it was a good trade until a) they drafted Cholowski and b) they signed Nielsen.

From what I remember, there were a lot of whispers about Chychrun's hockey sense.
I think I wanted Fabbro.
And then when we made the trade, i wanted Rubtsov, and he's in bustland now.

So...

I thought the evaluations of Chychrun were all way off, and I think he has shown that to be true so far.
 
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Winger98

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Pretty much where I was at the time. The trade was also made to make a run at Stamkos, which some experts even gave us a chance on. Turns out we had no chance and Holland should have back-channeled that better but that part is often ignored in this context.

Ilitch told them to sign the second best option after and I know we hate it but that actually was Nielsen...

And it wasn't without reason. We lost Datsyuk that summer, Z had returned from back surgery and hit a massive wall forty games into the season, and larkin had yet to play center with any consistency. Going out and getting a center so we had someone other than Glendening and Helm as our fall back in case everything went to hell wasn't the worst idea.
 
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MBH

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And it wasn't without reason. We lost Datsyuk that summer, Z had returned from back surgery and hit a massive wall forty games into the season, and larkin had yet to play center with any consistency. Going out and getting a center so we had someone other than Glendening and Helm as our fall back in case everything went to hell wasn't the worst idea.

The Nielsen deal was f***ing brutal on day 1.
I understand that deal and see the deal Staal signed with Minnesota.

I wonder what Staal might have done here. My guess is that he'd have helped quite a bit.

Staal vs Nielsen since that UFA season.
Staal
344115136251
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
vs
Nielsen
3154876124
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
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