Around the NHL 11 - 2023/24

[tbcwpg]

Absolutely hilarious. If I was more hip with the kids, I’d make a “Leafs and Trying to Not Overpay the Core Four Challenge (IMPOSSIBLE!)” joke. They just love to f*** their salary structure.


in b4 the contract defenders get here

I only defended the Matthews contract and I still will. Top 3 player in the league.

 

[10Ducky10]

I only defended the Matthews contract and I still will. Top 3 player in the league.

Coming from a closet Leaf fan.

 

[Jet]

I only defended the Matthews contract and I still will. Top 3 player in the league.

There's an interesting 'butterfly effect' to having these generational talents on your team. They put upwards pressure on your internal cap, just as the Jets having near elite star players on good value contracts pushing values down.

I really wonder if it's worth it to have a McDavid, a Matthews or a Bedard on your team?

Sure, they're fun as hell to watch and they can win you games near single handedly, but they harm your cap so much that they could prevent you from building a legitimate perennial contender.

Exacerbating this is covid and how it flattened the cap.

Luckily for the Jets, our one superstar is at the goaltending position, which has 3 benefits:

Goalies, more than any other position, impact team results.
Goals tend to get paid less than other position players at an elite level
You can't really use a goalies salary as a comparison for other players (probably has a hand in the above)

 

[Romang67]

Paying that much money for Nylander is banking hard on his being the 120 point player he has been so far in his 27 year old season, and not the ~point-per-game player it seemed like he was before this season.

 

[Jet]

Paying that much money for Nylander is banking hard on his being the 120 point player he has been so far in his 27 year old season, and not the ~point-per-game player it seemed like he was before this season.

Yup that's another contract that's just jam packed with risk. So happy the Leafs are going to do it.

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

I only defended the Matthews contract and I still will. Top 3 player in the league.

Easy to say that behind your keyboard.

 

[tbcwpg]

Coming from a closet Leaf fan.

Never been closeted about the Leafs being my team behind the Jets.

There's an interesting 'butterfly effect' to having these generational talents on your team. They put upwards pressure on your internal cap, just as the Jets having near elite star players on good value contracts pushing values down.

I really wonder if it's worth it to have a McDavid, a Matthews or a Bedard on your team?

Sure, they're fun as hell to watch and they can win you games near single handedly, but they harm your cap so much that they could prevent you from building a legitimate perennial contender.

Exacerbating this is covid and how it flattened the cap.

Luckily for the Jets, our one superstar is at the goaltending position, which has 3 benefits:

Goalies, more than any other position, impact team results.
Goals tend to get paid less than other position players at an elite level
You can't really use a goalies salary as a comparison for other players (probably has a hand in the above)

That is an interesting argument. I'd say the generational talent is worth it if you don't overpay elsewhere. The Leafs and Oilers issues haven't been their deals for Matthews or McDavid but who else they've paid and how much they've paid them.

Easy to say that behind your keyboard.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean, it sounds vaguely threatening haha.

 

[bustamente]

If the Leaf's go out early you would think that Marner would be the odd man out as they try to fix their D and find a goalie, oh an journeyman Jones is not the answer even though the media are pumping his tires like they usually do taking in small samples.

 

[Jet]

That is an interesting argument. I'd say the generational talent is worth it if you don't overpay elsewhere. The Leafs and Oilers issues haven't been their deals for Matthews or McDavid but who else they've paid and how much they've paid them.

yeah that's kind of my point. I wonder how much the McD and Matthews contracts affect the other salaries in an org. Especially in the modern era?

I think Pittsburgh avoided this to an extent likely because of the aggressive increase of the salary cap in those years.

I dont know, I could be wrong but it seems to be a theme with teams who have the very best players.

 

[tbcwpg]

yeah that's kind of my point. I wonder how much the McD and Matthews contracts affect the other salaries in an org. Especially in the modern era?

I think Pittsburgh avoided this to an extent likely because of the aggressive increase of the salary cap in those years.

I dont know, I could be wrong but it seems to be a theme with teams who have the very best players.

I can sort of understand it with Edmonton. Draisaitl would be the best player on probably 27 or 28 other teams in the league. They paid Nurse way too much but you might be right about the internal salary considerations.

I'd rather have a balanced team than top heavy but if you do have a generational talent I think you kind of have to pay them.

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

I had a theory a few years ago that the leafs overpaid their stars on purpose to change the economics of star players in the league. The idea of being they could sign any Ontario McDavid/tavares/stamkos/superstar when they became a UFA at 28/29 years old.

This theory was superseded with the leafs just being incompetent at giving out contracts.

Leafs playing checkers NOT 4d chess.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

At the end of the day wingers are worth 75-80% of centre's and top D

Marner and Nylander are bad deals

 

[MardyBum]

Correction

 

[bustamente]

Leafs have 3 D men currently on their roster signed for next year, Reilly, McCabe and Timmons and the guy in net that the media are pumping up atm is also a FA

 

[ps241]

Neither of which are usually a firing offence.

Then again, paragraph 2(e) is petty broad and open to interpretation.

I only defended the Matthews contract and I still will. Top 3 player in the league.

There's an interesting 'butterfly effect' to having these generational talents on your team. They put upwards pressure on your internal cap, just as the Jets having near elite star players on good value contracts pushing values down.

I really wonder if it's worth it to have a McDavid, a Matthews or a Bedard on your team?

Sure, they're fun as hell to watch and they can win you games near single handedly, but they harm your cap so much that they could prevent you from building a legitimate perennial contender.

Exacerbating this is covid and how it flattened the cap.

Luckily for the Jets, our one superstar is at the goaltending position, which has 3 benefits:

Goalies, more than any other position, impact team results.
Goals tend to get paid less than other position players at an elite level
You can't really use a goalies salary as a comparison for other players (probably has a hand in the above)

Paying that much money for Nylander is banking hard on his being the 120 point player he has been so far in his 27 year old season, and not the ~point-per-game player it seemed like he was before this season.

Never been closeted about the Leafs being my team behind the Jets.



That is an interesting argument. I'd say the generational talent is worth it if you don't overpay elsewhere. The Leafs and Oilers issues haven't been their deals for Matthews or McDavid but who else they've paid and how much they've paid them.



I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean, it sounds vaguely threatening haha.

yeah that's kind of my point. I wonder how much the McD and Matthews contracts affect the other salaries in an org. Especially in the modern era?

I think Pittsburgh avoided this to an extent likely because of the aggressive increase of the salary cap in those years.

I dont know, I could be wrong but it seems to be a theme with teams who have the very best players.

Interesting debate

I think in Toronto the problem started with Tavares. They overpaid to bring him in and he ratcheted up the internal cap pressure since he was probably the 3rd or 4th most talented forward. Then they had a rookie GM who didn’t negociate the term he needed on Matthews first contract and missed his window for affordable Marner even though he is a good player. I look at most of these wounds as self inflicted because the GM didn’t grind hard enough on deals and it got away on him.

I think Matthews is worth what he is getting paid. I think the others guys are all overpaid. Nylander is a good player but Treliving is pulling his next Huberdeau deal already in Toronto. As Romang already mentioned a career point per game winger is not worth $11.5 million. Scheifele makes $8.5 million as a PPG #1 centre by comparison. Nylander now sets the floor for Marner who has has always been more productive. So Marner is probably looking at between $12.5 to $13.5?? This team seems to be locked in internal cap pressure hell.

McDavid should be paid as the best player in the league and there is no reason that should impact an internal cap pressure, but outside of their top 2 that org has been a disaster in both drafting and signing players like Nurse to really head scratching contracts.

Chicago ran into trouble after they had to start paying Toews and Kane but they had already delivered multiple cups so its a bit easier to live with overpayment.

Boston had the reverse effect on internal cap pressure by having some of their super stars on really affordable contracts. How can you expect to get paid more the Bergeron?? That era ended with the Pasta deal but it was fun for the decade plus it lasted.



I think Chevy has done a great job in Winnipeg.

 

[bustamente]

How did those huge contracts for Parise and Suter work out for the Wild, in the cap era you have to be 100% when you give out big ticket and term contracts

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

View attachment 797936

Oh Sportsnet. Never stop never stopping.

 

[Channelcat]

At the end of the day wingers are worth 75-80% of centre's and top D

Marner and Nylander are bad deals

Agreed. At most.

 

[ps241]

How did those huge contracts for Parise and Suter work out for the Wild, in the cap era you have to be 100% when you give out big ticket and term contracts

Landing prized UFA’s (Suter, Parise, Tavares) is more often a curse than a blessing.

 

[Buffdog]

In theory, landing Tavares should have made the Leafs cup favorites for years. Top end centre depth like that plus marner and Nylander on the wings should have made them a powerhouse, and it did during regular seasons

Their mistake (like the oilers) was not finding a quality goaltender to provide at lease slightly above average goaltending in the playoffs. Something like Fleury and Murray did for Pitsburgh, Osgood did for Detroit, or Crawford did for Chicago.

Doesn't have to be a Vezina winner, but grabbing goalies off the scrap pile won't cut it

 

[CorgisPer60]

How did those huge contracts for Parise and Suter work out for the Wild, in the cap era you have to be 100% when you give out big ticket and term contracts

To be fair, neither of those players are anywhere close to what the core four can do by themselves. No one expected Tavares to live up to his contract, and he arguably did for the entire amount. It's actually quite remarkable. Giving max term to a skill player like Nylander and Marner isn't as bad as giving max term to, say, Wheeler or Ovechkin. I think this signals a changing of the guard, though. No team can win while being that top heavy. The Leafs have proven this for the last 5 years now. So, what is their plan? Try to re-sign Tavares for less and trade Marner? There's no chance he's going to settle for less than 10.5m AAV when his contract is up next.

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

Landing prized UFA’s (Suter, Parice, Tavares) is more often and curse than a blessing.

Bobby Holik being the exception.

 

[ps241]

Bobby Holik being the exception.

Oh there are exceptions but in the cap era more bad than good comes from the trophy hunting.

 

[Jet]

Oh there are exceptions but in the cap era more bad than good comes from the trophy hunting.

That's why I'd rather stay away from Lindholm. Just smacks of a mistake.

I really wish we'd see if 13 or 91 can take that 2c spot.

 

[Flair Hay]

That's why I'd rather stay away from Lindholm. Just smacks of a mistake.

I really wish we'd see if 13 or 91 can take that 2c spot.

These guys are both outstanding wingers, asking them to be something they are not is asking for trouble.

Like we may not make it out if the first round with Lindholm. That's always a risk.

But if Lindholm is a risk, what do we call putting a winger at center and asking them to be 2C on a Cup contender?

To me the risk we are presented with is not strengthening the roster at a key position where one injury is a single point of failure for us. These chances don't come around all that often. Talent is one thing, but we have the chemistry, buy-in, cohesiveness needed.

We will be trying to go to war every 2nd night for up to two months. We can't just have the best horses, we have to bd prepared for losing some along the way, possibly even a key one.