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[The Zermanator]

so would I. The hate for the guy is stupid and being brought back in a role similar to Bowman's after he retired would be nothing but a positive asset.

There's obviously some people that take their dislike of Holland to irrational and exaggerated levels, but let's not pretend there aren't some very valid reasons for not wanting him anywhere near this team going forward.

If I had to describe Holland's career over the last 10 years it would be stale. Guy just doesn't have it anymore, and the league has passed him by. He went from bad to worse over that time. First, he oversees a steady decline of the Wings to the bottom of the barrel. Bloated with bad contracts, empty cupboard, etc. "Oh but that was the price to pay for so many years of success and he also had orders from higher up to maintain the streak", you might say. It's a valid point, but that's also downplaying all the bad moves that couldn't be ascribed to those excuses. But we can just turn our attention to what he did next with a new team, where those factors weren't present.

So he takes over a team with the best player in the world by a wide margin, and another player who can almost keep pace with him. He's done absolutely nothing with it apart from more mostly stale moves and the team is in a terrible position now. And in their desperation to stop the bleeding and try to turn the ship around before those two unicorns bolt for greener pastures, they're rumoured to have taken their 1st rd pick off the table. Because apparently a 1st rounder is more important than using every possible avenue to take advantage of McDavid's prime years. Just utter mismanagement. Brings the word stale to mind again.

In a situation where Holland returns to the Wings in some advisory position, I have serious concerns about the effect it would have on Yzerman. Not that Yzerman isn't an assertive and independent person, but he obviously would look up to Holland and possibly even be somewhat deferential due to their personal history. Yzerman has proven himself to be a clever and shrewd GM who is not afraid to pull the trigger on a bold move. That has worked very well for the Wings thus far under Yzerman's watch, I don't want Holland's passive and ultra-conservative modus operandi weaving its way back in.

 

[saska sault]

There's obviously some people that take their dislike of Holland to irrational and exaggerated levels, but let's not pretend there aren't some very valid reasons for not wanting him anywhere near this team going forward.

If I had to describe Holland's career over the last 10 years it would be stale. Guy just doesn't have it anymore, and the league has passed him by. He went from bad to worse over that time. First, he oversees a steady decline of the Wings to the bottom of the barrel. Bloated with bad contracts, empty cupboard, etc. "Oh but that was the price to pay for so many years of success and he also had orders from higher up to maintain the streak", you might say. It's a valid point, but that's also downplaying all the bad moves that couldn't be ascribed to those excuses. But we can just turn our attention to what he did next with a new team, where those factors weren't present.

So he takes over a team with the best player in the world by a wide margin, and another player who can almost keep pace with him. He's done absolutely nothing with it apart from more mostly stale moves and the team is in a terrible position now. And in their desperation to stop the bleeding and try to turn the ship around before those two unicorns bolt for greener pastures, they're rumoured to have taken their 1st rd pick off the table. Because apparently a 1st rounder is more important than using every possible avenue to take advantage of McDavid's prime years. Just utter mismanagement. Brings the word stale to mind again.

In a situation where Holland returns to the Wings in some advisory position, I have serious concerns about the effect it would have on Yzerman. Not that Yzerman isn't an assertive and independent person, but he obviously would look up to Holland and possibly even be somewhat deferential due to their personal history. Yzerman has proven himself to be a clever and shrewd GM who is not afraid to pull the trigger on a bold move. That has worked very well for the Wings thus far under Yzerman's watch, I don't want Holland's passive and ultra-conservative modus operandi weaving its way back in.

Exactly give Holland his flowers, he's earned them. But there is only one Scotty Bowman, let's not pretend some guys wont lose their touch over the years.

His pro talent evaluation just isn't there... Nurse contract, Kane may produce but I wouldn't want him anywhere near my locker room... he is on Vrana/Mantha island. Campbell contract. Allowing Connor Brown to play his 10th game, thus sending a 3.25ish million bonus cap hit to next year? The Chiarot, Copp, etc contracts could age poorly but totally different situations.

 

[Geezer WC]

Not interested in Jimmy D 2.0.

 

[dalem177]

Mantha

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Rangers had an off game, hopefully they do that for us tomorrow.

And man Florida really took it to Stutzle last night, he was banged up.

 

[Winger98]

There's obviously some people that take their dislike of Holland to irrational and exaggerated levels, but let's not pretend there aren't some very valid reasons for not wanting him anywhere near this team going forward.

If I had to describe Holland's career over the last 10 years it would be stale. Guy just doesn't have it anymore, and the league has passed him by. He went from bad to worse over that time. First, he oversees a steady decline of the Wings to the bottom of the barrel. Bloated with bad contracts, empty cupboard, etc. "Oh but that was the price to pay for so many years of success and he also had orders from higher up to maintain the streak", you might say. It's a valid point, but that's also downplaying all the bad moves that couldn't be ascribed to those excuses. But we can just turn our attention to what he did next with a new team, where those factors weren't present.

So he takes over a team with the best player in the world by a wide margin, and another player who can almost keep pace with him. He's done absolutely nothing with it apart from more mostly stale moves and the team is in a terrible position now. And in their desperation to stop the bleeding and try to turn the ship around before those two unicorns bolt for greener pastures, they're rumoured to have taken their 1st rd pick off the table. Because apparently a 1st rounder is more important than using every possible avenue to take advantage of McDavid's prime years. Just utter mismanagement. Brings the word stale to mind again.

In a situation where Holland returns to the Wings in some advisory position, I have serious concerns about the effect it would have on Yzerman. Not that Yzerman isn't an assertive and independent person, but he obviously would look up to Holland and possibly even be somewhat deferential due to their personal history. Yzerman has proven himself to be a clever and shrewd GM who is not afraid to pull the trigger on a bold move. That has worked very well for the Wings thus far under Yzerman's watch, I don't want Holland's passive and ultra-conservative modus operandi weaving its way back in.

Consider this a reply to everyone.

Look at where Edmonton finished for the 13 seasons prior to Holland getting there, including the first four seasons of McDavid's career. Holland inherited a cap strapped team stripped of moveable assets and has made them a perennial playoff team. Which I know people will point to McDavid and say that's easy with him there but...history with him says otherwise. And they are right to not throw their 1st away in a desperation move when what they need is for the players they have to start playing better.

And I guess I have more faith in Yzerman to continue being the GM regardless of who is in the room, and I have no issue with Devellano 2.0 or whatever. I find the worries that Holland would somehow backdoor a virus into Yzerman's decision making unlikely. I also don't think Holland and Yzerman are polar opposites on the GM ladder.

 

[jaster]

Consider this a reply to everyone.

Look at where Edmonton finished for the 13 seasons prior to Holland getting there, including the first four seasons of McDavid's career. Holland inherited a cap strapped team stripped of moveable assets and has made them a perennial playoff team. Which I know people will point to McDavid and say that's easy with him there but...history with him says otherwise. And they are right to not throw their 1st away in a desperation move when what they need is for the players they have to start playing better.

And I guess I have more faith in Yzerman to continue being the GM regardless of who is in the room, and I have no issue with Devellano 2.0 or whatever. I find the worries that Holland would somehow backdoor a virus into Yzerman's decision making unlikely. I also don't think Holland and Yzerman are polar opposites on the GM ladder.

I don't think he'll backdoor a virus, but for whatever he's done right in recent years, he's clearly working from a hockey doctrine that is largely obsolete. And I'm not sure him potentially bringing that doctrine into the Wings front office will be anything better than a distraction.

And I do think him and Yzerman are pretty different. Yes, Yzerman came from the Holland nest, but Yzerman has shown he has a very specific doctrine of his own making, and I really don't think it's very compatible with how Holland has operated since his later days in Detroit.

As for Edmonton, I guess I can buy the argument that he took a dumpster fire where somehow a team with McDavid couldn't make the playoffs (which is downright inexplicable), and brought them up to the bare minimum level of success one should reasonably expect from a team with McDavid, but.... I'm not sure that's a good enough bullet point on the resume to make me think we should bring him back.

 

[Ricelund]

Checking in on some old friends:

- Mantha - 14GP - 3G + 1A = 4P
- Bertuzzi - 19GP - 5G + 4A = 9P
- Zadina - 20GP - 3G + 2A = 5P
- Vrana - 16GP - 2G + 4A = 6P
- Athanasiou - 11GP - 0G + 4A = 4P
- Kubalik - 17GP - 4G + 1A = 5P



Hard to believe several of these guys were our future core at one point.

Hronek's tearing it up playing with Hughes but then again so is Gostisbehere. I make that trade 10 times outta 10.

Can anyone remember a more up and down player than Vrana? He's either scoring at a 40G pace or he's benched.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Sooo...is this why Corey Perry is no longer with the team? Did he Finch Stiffler's mom?

 

[jaster]

Checking in on some old friends:

- Mantha - 14GP - 3G + 1A = 4P
- Bertuzzi - 19GP - 5G + 4A = 9P
- Zadina - 20GP - 3G + 2A = 5P
- Vrana - 16GP - 2G + 4A = 6P
- Athanasiou - 11GP - 0G + 4A = 4P
- Kubalik - 17GP - 4G + 1A = 5P



Hard to believe several of these guys were our future core at one point.

Hronek's tearing it up playing with Hughes but then again so is Gostisbehere. I make that trade 10 times outta 10.

Hronek is the best player of all the names you listed, and I'd have said that before this season, but I agree, that was a trade that was in our best interests. I was one of the very few who thought Vancouver got the better end of that trade (just barely), and I wish we had gotten a little more, but it was fair. And we may still be big winners in the end, depending on what ASP becomes.

And despite all his warts, Bert was a good player for us, I did enjoy his style. But he was another guy who had to go for the Wings to improve, and improve they have.

I never liked any of the rest of those guys. Like at all. Which is the main reason I wanted to reply to this. When you put all those names on a list like that, I'm like, 'damn, Yzerman really has moved all the right guys so far.' If I made a top-10 list of most frustrating or annoying players to watch in the Yzerman era to me personally, Mantha/Zadina/Vrana/AA/Kubalik would all be on it. Hell, they might be the top-5.

Sooo...is this why Corey Perry is no longer with the team? Did he Finch Stiffler's mom?

I'd feel bad for Bedard (just a little), but this would otherwise be pretty hilarious if true. My Hawks fan hockey teammates are all facepalming over this, hoping it's not true lol.

 

[Konnan511]

Checking in on some old friends:

- Mantha - 14GP - 3G + 1A = 4P
- Bertuzzi - 19GP - 5G + 4A = 9P
- Zadina - 20GP - 3G + 2A = 5P
- Vrana - 16GP - 2G + 4A = 6P
- Athanasiou - 11GP - 0G + 4A = 4P
- Kubalik - 17GP - 4G + 1A = 5P



Hard to believe several of these guys were our future core at one point.

Hronek's tearing it up playing with Hughes but then again so is Gostisbehere. I make that trade 10 times outta 10.

Can anyone remember a more up and down player than Vrana? He's either scoring at a 40G pace or he's benched.

You'd trade a 26 year old, first pairing, point-per-game defenseman, lead his entire team in points at 23, for a 30 year old 2nd pairing D-Man? Hronek is a markedly better D-Man than Ghost regardless if they are close in points. Plus one of them has 3 times as many professional fights as the other. I like Ghost, a lot, but he is no where near the player Hronek is and will continue to be.

Respectfully.

 

[Ricelund]

You'd trade a 26 year old, first pairing, point-per-game defenseman, lead his entire team in points at 23, for a 30 year old 2nd pairing D-Man? Hronek is a markedly better D-Man than Ghost regardless if they are close in points. Plus one of them has 3 times as many professional fights as the other. I like Ghost, a lot, but he is no where near the player Hronek is and will continue to be.

Respectfully.

Yes, given that we got ASP in the deal too, I’m very happy with the trade. I would not be interested in signing Hronek to his next contract. I like Hronek and am glad to see him doing well but how regularly he gets abused in his own end is a major issue.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I'd feel bad for Bedard (just a little), but this would otherwise be pretty hilarious if true. My Hawks fan hockey teammates are all facepalming over this, hoping it's not true lol.

I mean, I can't blame Perry if it's true either.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

You'd trade a 26 year old, first pairing, point-per-game defenseman, lead his entire team in points at 23, for a 30 year old 2nd pairing D-Man? Hronek is a markedly better D-Man than Ghost regardless if they are close in points. Plus one of them has 3 times as many professional fights as the other. I like Ghost, a lot, but he is no where near the player Hronek is and will continue to be.

Respectfully.

No, but if you can trade Hronek and get a few more bites at the apple through the draft and bring in Ghost as a stopgap...

 

[Oddbob]

Sooo...is this why Corey Perry is no longer with the team? Did he Finch Stiffler's mom?

Why is this a rumour just cause it is a "moms" trip and Bedard has a picture with his mom?

 

[jaster]

Why is this a rumour just cause it is a "moms" trip and Bedard has a picture with his mom?

Who knows how it started. That's why it's a rumor. But if it's true, it's probably because someone knew they hooked up and then leaked it. If it's not true, it's probably because someone made it up just for the lulz.

 

[Konnan511]

Why would Bedard's Mom sleep with Corey Perry? He's an ugly looking dude. She could do much better.

 

[Winger98]

I don't think he'll backdoor a virus, but for whatever he's done right in recent years, he's clearly working from a hockey doctrine that is largely obsolete. And I'm not sure him potentially bringing that doctrine into the Wings front office will be anything better than a distraction.

And I do think him and Yzerman are pretty different. Yes, Yzerman came from the Holland nest, but Yzerman has shown he has a very specific doctrine of his own making, and I really don't think it's very compatible with how Holland has operated since his later days in Detroit.

As for Edmonton, I guess I can buy the argument that he took a dumpster fire where somehow a team with McDavid couldn't make the playoffs (which is downright inexplicable), and brought them up to the bare minimum level of success one should reasonably expect from a team with McDavid, but.... I'm not sure that's a good enough bullet point on the resume to make me think we should bring him back.

Even if you want to say they are incredibly different, though I don't, it's still Yzerman setting the doctrine here and Yzerman deciding how to use Holland and what weight to give him. At some point this line of criticizing Holland does more to make Yzerman look bad than it does Holland.

As for Edmonton, I guess it depends on how you view the situation that team was in when Holland took over. Given the lack of organizational resources, the expectations, and the cap situation...I have a hard time looking at it being a failure there. But all people see is McDavid.

 

[Ricelund]

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

It has been “0” days since the Chicago Blackhawks have embarrassed themselves.

 

[jaster]

Even if you want to say they are incredibly different, though I don't, it's still Yzerman setting the doctrine here and Yzerman deciding how to use Holland and what weight to give him. At some point this line of criticizing Holland does more to make Yzerman look bad than it does Holland.

As for Edmonton, I guess it depends on how you view the situation that team was in when Holland took over. Given the lack of organizational resources, the expectations, and the cap situation...I have a hard time looking at it being a failure there. But all people see is McDavid.

I hear you, Holland has done a thing in Edmonton. He's made a lot of mistakes though too, some egregious. That mitigates a lot of the credit I would otherwise give him. Again, I'm just not totally convinced his time in Edmonton is much of a resume booster.

I'll give you this for Yzerman vs. Holland. They have completely different situations and are trying to do different things. In that sense, it's fair to say "well of course they are operating differently, they have different challenges." BUT. Yzerman made a plan when he started, a plan that so far, to me, seems to be very compatible with today's NHL. Meanwhile, Holland has made a number of moves that just don't make sense with how the league works now. It all feeds into the thought that often gets posted: "the league has passed him by." I think there's a lot of truth to that.

He's basically a dinosaur at this point, imo. And I don't think Detroit has a need for a dinosaur in the front office. Because whatever value Holland might offer an NHL team, I think Detroit already has that all covered. As a team that lagged behind most of the rest of the league in implementing analytics, I'd like to see them invest further in that before bringing back an archaic figure like Holland as an advisor.

 

[Frk It]

Even if you want to say they are incredibly different, though I don't, it's still Yzerman setting the doctrine here and Yzerman deciding how to use Holland and what weight to give him. At some point this line of criticizing Holland does more to make Yzerman look bad than it does Holland.

As for Edmonton, I guess it depends on how you view the situation that team was in when Holland took over. Given the lack of organizational resources, the expectations, and the cap situation...I have a hard time looking at it being a failure there. But all people see is McDavid.

I would absolutely want to get wisdom and be advised from Holland if this was like 2012.

What am I getting from the guy who thought picking Zadina was a good idea, and picking Cholowski was a good idea, and picking Rasmussen was a good idea, and trading away the pick that could have landed Chychrun was a good idea, and signing Frans Nielsen til he was 40 was a good idea, and etc etc etc

Seems he is making more bad calls than good the last 4-5 years and I want to pick his brain? Because he used to have a great grasp on things 10+ years ago?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I would absolutely want to get wisdom and be advised from Holland if this was like 2012.

What am I getting from the guy who thought picking Zadina was a good idea, and picking Cholowski was a good idea, and picking Rasmussen was a good idea, and trading away the pick that could have landed Chychrun was a good idea, and signing Frans Nielsen til he was 40 was a good idea, and etc etc etc

Seems he is making more bad calls than good the last 4-5 years and I want to pick his brain? Because he used to have a great grasp on things 10+ years ago?

I mean, Abdelkader himself is probably offended you didn't include him in the list of missteps.

Even if you want to say they are incredibly different, though I don't, it's still Yzerman setting the doctrine here and Yzerman deciding how to use Holland and what weight to give him. At some point this line of criticizing Holland does more to make Yzerman look bad than it does Holland.

As for Edmonton, I guess it depends on how you view the situation that team was in when Holland took over. Given the lack of organizational resources, the expectations, and the cap situation...I have a hard time looking at it being a failure there. But all people see is McDavid.

How on earth does criticizing Holland make Yzerman look bad?

With Edmonton, I view the situation as that most of the Oilers major problems are the same ones that existed when he became GM. Assuming Holland is no longer GM after this season, I think you would be among a very tiny group of people who didn't consider his time there being a failure. The other people in that group being members of his family. Maybe.

 

[Frk It]

I mean, Abdelkader himself is probably offended you didn't include him in the list of missteps.

The etc etc etc could include a lot if you wanted it to.

Point is I don’t think we need help from the guy who dug us the hole we are still trying to dig out of. Thank you for the cups and memories, but I’d explore other options.

 

[Ricelund]

With Edmonton, I view the situation as that most of the Oilers major problems are the same ones that existed when he became GM. Assuming Holland is no longer GM after this season, I think you would be among a very tiny group of people who didn't consider his time there being a failure. The other people in that group being members of his family. Maybe.

Winger has a low bar for GMs. He didn't think Avila was a failure with the Tigers either.