Around the League Thread part V

[Ziggy Stardust]

Frk signs with St. Louis.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Yet another 1 year, 2-way contract for Frk the journeyman And from a better team than the King, who actually knows offense. 9 guys with 20+ goals last year. If he can't make it there...

 

[Statto]

I don’t think TMac is anywhere near the caliber of coach to dry age Kopitar’s game like they’ve done with Bergeron.

Also, and we can all probably be honest about this now, but Bergeron was always roughly 5% better than Kopitar.

They are close. I put them in the same tier, whilst I agree Bergeron has the better overall career he definitely had more opportunity to maximize his offensive game. Both are going to the HOF without a doubt and are two of the games best Selke caliber forwards, if not the best.

 

[cyclones22]

They are close. I put them in the same tier, whilst I agree Berheron has the better overall career he definitely had more opportunity to maximize his offensive game. Both are going to the HOF without a doubt and are two of the games best Selke caliber forwards, if not the best.

I think Kopitar is a slightly better player than Bergeron. The difference is Bergeron has been better managed over his career and on average has played with better teammates. I think I've mentioned this before that Bergeron has played over 20 minutes a game in one season in his entire career. The opposite is true of Kopi. Imagine how much better he could have been with better management of his TOI over his career.

 

[ZJames]

I think Kopitar is a slightly better player than Bergeron. The difference is Bergeron has been better managed over his career and on average has played with better teammates. I think I've mentioned this before that Bergeron has played over 20 minutes a game in one season in his entire career. The opposite is true of Kopi. Imagine how much better he could have been with better management of his TOI over his career.

Kopitar is better offensively. Bergeron may be a little better defensively. The only place that I believe Bergeron has a significant edge on Kopitar is grit. Kopitar has never had any sandpaper in his game. But overall, I wouldn't trade a young Kopitar for a young Bergeron, and I don't think Boston would either. Both were the right players for their respective teams.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Bergeron has had the chance to play with prime Pastrnak, Marchand, Lucic, Hall, Eriksson, Horton, Wheeler etc. as well.

Where as Kopitar's best line mates throughout his career has been 40 year old Gaborik, Ryan Smyth, Justin Williams, Dustin Brown, anddd Alex Iaffalo?

 

[lumbergh]

I doubt Kopitar retires in 2 years. See him resigning and hopefully use as a third-line center, on the cheap.

Handzus v.2.0.

 

[ZJames]

Handzus v.2.0.

Seeing as how Kopitar is probably my favorite player of all time (Became a fan during the 2001 Kings v Redwings series), I would love to see Kopitar continue to play for this franchise in that kind of role, as long the contract $$$ is reasonable.

 

[YP44]

As long as there is room to bring in Mathews no reason Kopitar cannot retire a king

 

[kingsfan28]

As long as there is room to bring in Mathews no reason Kopitar cannot retire a king

I like this idea!

 

[KingsFan7824]

Bergeron has had the chance to play with prime Pastrnak, Marchand, Lucic, Hall, Eriksson, Horton, Wheeler etc. as well.

Where as Kopitar's best line mates throughout his career has been 40 year old Gaborik, Ryan Smyth, Justin Williams, Dustin Brown, anddd Alex Iaffalo?

Lombardi hockey. You do wonder if Kopitar is the pick if DL is here in 2005. Is he a DL player? A juicy Marc Staal was the next pick. Rask not that far behind. American boy Oshie.

 

[YP44]

Can't we just be happy that the pick was Kopitar and that he is here?
I hope the final few years of Kopitar's career are not shit all over like Brown's. I also hope it will be after his next contract not this one.

 

[Steve Zissou]

 

[Johnny Utah]

How did Maata and AA get all that money wow….

I liked AA but he can’t stay healthy and Maata…no comment.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

One thing that's always fun when looking at Kopitar's stats in context is that he's always led the Kings by 20-30 points.

Sure if he had a Patrick Kane here maybe he's 'just' second fiddle but there's a case to be made that his offense is more impressive because he's the team leading offense AND defense player whereas Bergeron, Toews, ROR et. al. could only manage one or the other no matter what was put next to them.

That's what always blows my mind when people fire Bergeron way up their charts and forget about Kopitar, I mean imagine Kopitar with 90 point wingers and offensive deployment. I do tthink Bergeron is arguably the greatest defensive forward of all time and can play any game but the gap between him and AK has to be slim at worst.

 

[Statto]

How did Maata and AA get all that money wow….

I liked AA but he can’t stay healthy and Maata…no comment.

Maatta had a solid season last year, people let his poor start cloud the subsequent assessment of his play. He’s certainly better value than AA, which granted is a low bar. For me signing AA last year was Blake’s worst move in his tenure, he is/was such a poor fit. Given Chicago are looking to tank he’s a great fit there, he will score the odd pretty goal to entertain whilst simultaneously helping the tank.

One thing that's always fun when looking at Kopitar's stats in context is that he's always led the Kings by 20-30 points.

Sure if he had a Patrick Kane here maybe he's 'just' second fiddle but there's a case to be made that his offense is more impressive because he's the team leading offense AND defense player whereas Bergeron, Toews, ROR et. al. could only manage one or the other no matter what was put next to them.

That's what always blows my mind when people fire Bergeron way up their charts and forget about Kopitar, I mean imagine Kopitar with 90 point wingers and offensive deployment. I do tthink Bergeron is arguably the greatest defensive forward of all time and can play any game but the gap between him and AK has to be slim at worst.

You argue that far better than I did, but I completely agree.

 

[ZJames]

One thing that's always fun when looking at Kopitar's stats in context is that he's always led the Kings by 20-30 points.

Sure if he had a Patrick Kane here maybe he's 'just' second fiddle but there's a case to be made that his offense is more impressive because he's the team leading offense AND defense player whereas Bergeron, Toews, ROR et. al. could only manage one or the other no matter what was put next to them.

That's what always blows my mind when people fire Bergeron way up their charts and forget about Kopitar, I mean imagine Kopitar with 90 point wingers and offensive deployment. I do tthink Bergeron is arguably the greatest defensive forward of all time and can play any game but the gap between him and AK has to be slim at worst.

Three words: East Coast BIas. Many will deny it, but I believe in it. If Kopitar played in NY or Philly, he would be far more respected. If he played in Toronto, he would probably be dubbed a god amoung men. Lol

 

[FrozenKing18]

One thing that's always fun when looking at Kopitar's stats in context is that he's always led the Kings by 20-30 points.

Sure if he had a Patrick Kane here maybe he's 'just' second fiddle but there's a case to be made that his offense is more impressive because he's the team leading offense AND defense player whereas Bergeron, Toews, ROR et. al. could only manage one or the other no matter what was put next to them.

That's what always blows my mind when people fire Bergeron way up their charts and forget about Kopitar, I mean imagine Kopitar with 90 point wingers and offensive deployment. I do tthink Bergeron is arguably the greatest defensive forward of all time and can play any game but the gap between him and AK has to be slim at worst.

This is why i’m a little biased when it comes to Kopitar lol for this exact reason, racking up points the way he did with the wingers he played with. Always fun to wonder what it would've been like if he had quality wingers. Who do you guys think would have been perfect wingers for him? Always thought a prime Loui Eriksson or Rick Nash would’ve meshed well with Kopitar. I was excited when those Nash to LA rumors were swirling around lol

 

[bland]

Kopitar's point totals are reflective of the style of game he has chosen to play. He wasn't sentenced to two way wingers. He wasn't asked or forced to play pessimistic, safety-first hockey, he does so by choice. Its who he is.

He is a 90 point player who chose a 60 point style. Offensive wingers have to adapt to him, and most don't have the mindset to do so.

Anze likes to play with Iafallo. One way cheaters, which are 90% of offensive wingers, leave far too many gaps in coverage and it negates all the hard work he does down low. Anze wants safe, conscientious, reliable wingers. That's all there is to it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Three words: East Coast BIas. Many will deny it, but I believe in it. If Kopitar played in NY or Philly, he would be far more respected. If he played in Toronto, he would probably be dubbed a god amoung men. Lol

Sort of like the careers of Carey Price and Jonathan Quick.

One is somehow a surefire first ballot hofer, one is largely forgotten, yet if you look at their careers...

Market effects.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This is why i’m a little biased when it comes to Kopitar lol for this exact reason, racking up points the way he did with the wingers he played with. Always fun to wonder what it would've been like if he had quality wingers. Who do you guys think would have been perfect wingers for him? Always thought a prime Loui Eriksson or Rick Nash would’ve meshed well with Kopitar. I was excited when those Nash to LA rumors were swirling around lol

Well like @bland says he mostly seems to work well with a certain type of winger...

Using the examples above I think he would be unstoppable with Marchand, less so with Pasta, but there's a reason I was big on Anders Lee and Josh Anderson at different points. "Brown" like or Smythe-like games.

 

[BringTheReign]

Great trade by the Devils. Marino is solid and will help their goaltenders. Smith is redundant in Pittsburgh with Letang there, not sure why they targeted him but I guess they needed to move cap space.

 

[Rick Knickleback]

Please don't tell me we're going to s*** all over Kopitar's career as it enters its final act.

Did he not fight enough? Did he not dominate enough on the forecheck? Was he too tentative in the open ice? Was he willing to settle for "everybody being good" so no one has to be great? Was he a golden retriever instead of a pitbull? Did he get totally caved by McDavid after game 1? Sure. But these are all projections that people have put onto him, based upon their own "old time hockey" biases to say nothing of recency biases. They're not reasonable demands--imagine a player who did all of those things?--and they overlook all that he has done.

Which is everything for this franchise. An iron man who's produced at ~70 points in ~80 games/eason for 16 years. Endless defensive zone faceoffs against an opponent's top centerman, after which he was asked to turn it into an offensive chance for us. An endless parade of 2nd and 3rd line wingers alongside him. He's, what, 5th in active scorers, despite being an absolute pain in the ass to play against in the defensive zone?

Players who have won two Selkes and scored 1000 points: Brindamour, Fedorov, Kopitar. End of list. (Bergeron, who has averaged over 10 fewer points a season despite playing with elite scorers, likely will join soon.)

In both cup runs he was our leading scorer, and scored some incredibly important goals in 2012. He was less noticeable in 2014 save for the last four games of the SJ series, which he pretty much took over. Go watch those games again. He was far and away the most dominant player on the ice and we don't win the series without him. He then went toe to toe with prime Getzlaf and prime Toews and came out on top*. He might not be featured in too many highlights from those series, but neither were the people he lined up against. And Gaborik, who rode shotgun with him, scored how many goals? Don't forget 2011. That was a good team, but when he busted his ankle last week of the season, we were done. Who has been more important to their team than Anze since 2006. Even OV had Backstrom. Sid's had Malkin as a consigliere his entire career!

Stop this whole BS routine (often whispered or formulated in passive-aggressive language) that he's an underachiever. The guy has probably had the best Kings career ever, and if you adjust for the eras, he might be the best Kings player ever as well. He's also a stand up guy in the locker room, in the community, and in life in general. Imagine the burden he carries on behalf his tiny-ass European country?

We're all seeing in crystal clear fashion how difficult it is to find somebody to replace him.

Here's hoping he plays 15 minutes a night, gets gifted some easier faceoff chances, and spends more time on the PK than the PP and helps QB jibe with Fiala and Kempe. But both things can be true: it's time for him to throttle down** (please Todd, come to see this), and he's been an absolute legend.

I'm not trying to polish the guy's jock. He needs to produce and be a leader....but didn't the Kings make the playoffs against expectations with him playing a gigantic role and wearing the C? He is producing! It's not his fault management got cold feet with the rebuild. Did he lean on Blake to try to win now? Maybe. He wants to win, so which is it--he's not competitive enough to dominate or he's too competitive to see the light? Dude can't win, even though he's won plenty. I remember some people saying Kings would never win a Cup with him as their #1 center. I know it's the internet, so no one ever apologizes for being wrong, but a little perspective and humility (two things Anze's got in spades) might be in order.

(*he sucked in the finals against the Rangers. He can wear that.)

(**gotta love the comparison to Handzus. Come the **** on. Anze scored 67 points last year; Handzus career high is 58. Go see how many 50+ point seasons Handzus had and compare to the number of sub 50-point seasons Anze's had. Stevie Y is probably the better 35+ comp going forward--though his teams were far more stacked)

 

[unicornpig]

Please don't tell me we're going to s*** all over Kopitar's career as it enters its final act.

Did he not fight enough? Did he not dominate enough on the forecheck? Was he too tentative in the open ice? Was he willing to settle for "everybody being good" so no one has to be great? Was he a golden retriever instead of a pitbull? Did he get totally caved by McDavid after game 1? Sure. But these are all projections that people have put onto him, based upon their own "old time hockey" biases to say nothing of recency biases. They're not reasonable demands--imagine a player who did all of those things?--and they overlook all that he has done.

Which is everything for this franchise. An iron man who's produced at ~70 points in ~80 games/eason for 16 years. Endless defensive zone faceoffs against an opponent's top centerman, after which he was asked to turn it into an offensive chance for us. An endless parade of 2nd and 3rd line wingers alongside him. He's, what, 5th in active scorers, despite being an absolute pain in the ass to play against in the defensive zone?

Players who have won two Selkes and scored 1000 points: Brindamour, Fedorov, Kopitar. End of list. (Bergeron, who has averaged over 10 fewer points a season despite playing with elite scorers, likely will join soon.)

In both cup runs he was our leading scorer, and scored some incredibly important goals in 2012. He was less noticeable in 2014 save for the last four games of the SJ series, which he pretty much took over. Go watch those games again. He was far and away the most dominant player on the ice and we don't win the series without him. He then went toe to toe with prime Getzlaf and prime Toews and came out on top*. He might not be featured in too many highlights from those series, but neither were the people he lined up against. And Gaborik, who rode shotgun with him, scored how many goals? Don't forget 2011. That was a good team, but when he busted his ankle last week of the season, we were done. Who has been more important to their team than Anze since 2006. Even OV had Backstrom. Sid's had Malkin as a consigliere his entire career!

Stop this whole BS routine (often whispered or formulated in passive-aggressive language) that he's an underachiever. The guy has probably had the best Kings career ever, and if you adjust for the eras, he might be the best Kings player ever as well. He's also a stand up guy in the locker room, in the community, and in life in general. Imagine the burden he carries on behalf his tiny-ass European country?

We're all seeing in crystal clear fashion how difficult it is to find somebody to replace him.

Here's hoping he plays 15 minutes a night, gets gifted some easier faceoff chances, and spends more time on the PK than the PP and helps QB jibe with Fiala and Kempe. But both things can be true: it's time for him to throttle down** (please Todd, come to see this), and he's been an absolute legend.

I'm not trying to polish the guy's jock. He needs to produce and be a leader....but didn't the Kings make the playoffs against expectations with him playing a gigantic role and wearing the C? He is producing! It's not his fault management got cold feet with the rebuild. Did he lean on Blake to try to win now? Maybe. He wants to win, so which is it--he's not competitive enough to dominate or he's too competitive to see the light? Dude can't win, even though he's won plenty. I remember some people saying Kings would never win a Cup with him as their #1 center. I know it's the internet, so no one ever apologizes for being wrong, but a little perspective and humility (two things Anze's got in spades) might be in order.

(*he sucked in the finals against the Rangers. He can wear that.)

(**gotta love the comparison to Handzus. Come the **** on. Anze scored 67 points last year; Handzus career high is 58. Go see how many 50+ point seasons Handzus had and compare to the number of sub 50-point seasons Anze's had. Stevie Y is probably the better 35+ comp going forward--though his teams were far more stacked)

my favorite are the people who shit on kopitar but have this absurd hard on for mike richards

 

[TruKingFan]

Great trade by the Devils. Marino is solid and will help their goaltenders. Smith is redundant in Pittsburgh with Letang there, not sure why they targeted him but I guess they needed to move cap space.

Devils have definitely improved this off-season - @Brodeur would be pleased I think.