Around the league part 2

[All The Kings Men]

True enough, but if you have that much faith in a prospect you MAKE room for them, that's not something LA has done in 30 years if not forever....and when they did, they f***ed it up royally anyways by using it on the wrong player, Jokinen, Berg etc.

The types of prospects that illicit that kind of trust are usually top 10 draft picks

The Kings didn't have any of those until 2019, 2020 and 2021

They had Vilardi in 2017 at 11th overall but as we alllllllll know way too well, his health issue prevented him from being treated like a bonafide top prospect for at least 3 seasons.

Prior to Vilarid the highest pick the Kings had made was Forbort at #15 in 2010.

The complaints about not converting top level prospects should really be limited to
Turcotte, Byfield and Clarke and even then my list of forwards occupying Top 6 roles is still totally relevant to the conversation.

Name me a sport and a team where a legendary player was still active on the same roster playing the same position and in a similar role as their replacement for more than half a season.

 

[JJDrums]

Lets start with 2010, because 2024 kinda hard to judge the draft that just happened

Forbort, Toffoli, Shore, Pearson, Miller, Amadio, Kempe, Roy, Eyssimont, Anderson, Vilardi, Kupari, Kaliyev,

All with SIGNIFICANT, NHL time that were either drafted or developed by LA, that's not taking into account ANY undrafted UFA signings like Lizotte, Iafallo, etc.

As mentioned. The past 10 years is what I was referring to and the Kings are flops.

Name one first line or first pairing defenceman they developed.

You are missing the point. Anyone can churn out mid level players but that is not going to move the team forward and the kings have failed

 

[chris kontos]

Elicit= to bring forth, to produce
Illicit= behavior seen in suspects, not prospects

 

[DoktorJeep]

Doughty is the last member of the kings Mount Rushmore who should take a roster spot. Once that chapter is done, the sacred cows are exhausted.

What’s been drilled home incessantly since Dean was fired is that the management is here to help the cup winners get back to high levels.

And the team has consistently made money behind this strategy. So fan opinions don’t move the needle at the end of the day. Arguing about development is a distraction from the core mistake of betting on guys who can’t get it done in the here and now.

It’s a ripple effect that starts at the top and works its way down to the bottom. Locking into constraints at the top of the roster shapes every decision down the line. If your high end players aren’t two of the top twenty at their respective positions in the current season, you’re not set up for a deep run.

And if your high end players are paid equivalent to the best players in the league in terms of cap share amongst the roster, you don’t have flexibility to pay for the depth required to get over the hump, nevermind a deep run.

So we ate the apple to win 2 cups in three years. Our original sin is acquiring the knowledge that supporting a failing franchise through thick and thin just elongates the thin. Just because a bunch of ex players who were popular are in charge and are also a bunch of incompetents, doesn’t absolve the hard core fans from supporting a franchise who consistently underperforms expectations given the resources available.

 

[BigKing]

I agree with everything you wrote here. Don't see where i said it was development issues, and I said I like our scouts draft work .


the bolded was depressing.. you ok?

I am fantastic, but appreciate the ask.

I did just become a board member of my HOA so check back in with me in a month...or maybe a week.

 

[BigKing]

Doughty is the last member of the kings Mount Rushmore who should take a roster spot. Once that chapter is done, the sacred cows are exhausted.

What’s been drilled home incessantly since Dean was fired is that the management is here to help the cup winners get back to high levels.

And the team has consistently made money behind this strategy. So fan opinions don’t move the needle at the end of the day. Arguing about development is a distraction from the core mistake of betting on guys who can’t get it done in the here and now.

It’s a ripple effect that starts at the top and works its way down to the bottom. Locking into constraints at the top of the roster shapes every decision down the line. If your high end players aren’t two of the top twenty at their respective positions in the current season, you’re not set up for a deep run.

And if your high end players are paid equivalent to the best players in the league in terms of cap share amongst the roster, you don’t have flexibility to pay for the depth required to get over the hump, nevermind a deep run.

So we ate the apple to win 2 cups in three years. Our original sin is acquiring the knowledge that supporting a failing franchise through thick and thin just elongates the thin. Just because a bunch of ex players who were popular are in charge and are also a bunch of incompetents, doesn’t absolve the hard core fans from supporting a franchise who consistently underperforms expectations given the resources available.

The only way it can work is if you have studs on ELCs.

Vilardi wiped out by injury. Turcotte not a stud. Byfield doesn't make an impact until he is due a raise.

Clarke being screwed with.

I've said before multiple seasons now that nothing we talk about matters unless Byfield--and potentially Clarke at the same time--are impact players before their ELCs expire. Well, it didn't happen and all that nice depth Blake had to make the Kings a playoff team is gone, along with the assets he pissed away to get that short-lived depth.

Just atrocious asset management. The fact he is still employed--and what that ultimately means--leads me to believe this is the darkest period in Kings history since the last few seasons of Taylor's reign.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

As mentioned. The past 10 years is what I was referring to and the Kings are flops.

Name one first line or first pairing defenceman they developed.

You are missing the point. Anyone can churn out mid level players but that is not going to move the team forward and the kings have failed

Byfield....next question?

 

[King'sPawn]

whether or not its a wise strategy is not a conversation I'm going to participate in...

I just think if people want to catalog missed opportunities or deficient areas of expertise within the organization it's important to accurately identify where any opportunities existed and when and where people are able to demonstrate their expertise.

"Development" is a loose term that gets tossed around liberally and as I've said in the past I don't think we have any meaningful evidence to support any claim of the Kings ability or inability to develop "top end" talent or draft picks.

They just haven't had the talent or the space for those types of players to emerge. Their track record for "developing" players to play in support roles seems pretty unassailable to me.

If people want to criticize the overall organizational trajectory since the summer of 2014 well... at some level the results speak for themselves.

I agree their overall track record of developing players is very good.

But I'm not sure how you can say "the Kings didn't have existing opportunities for young players to step up" and at the same time accuse us of liberally tossing around development, as if development and opportunity go hand in hand.

For example, I remember you mentioning in the past about the origins of your podcast. You started there, and it built up a lot of momentum and building a fanbase. Now, undoubtedly, you've probably felt and experienced granular improvements. But what if the Kings just never hired you, because there were no opportunities for you. Do you feel you would be at the same level you are now without that opportunity?

A goldfish only grows as big as the tank they're in. You can shrug and say "this is the only size tank we have" or you get a bigger tank.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I mean I'm wrong a LOT too but

I think one of the smartest hypothesis I (with a few others) ever had was that this franchise is absolutely excellent at developing depth but that I'm worried about what they'd do with blue chip talent

And we've arrived

f***.

 

[johnjm22]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1307477984362848257

 

[Maynard]

I mean I'm wrong a LOT too but

I think one of the smartest hypothesis I (with a few others) ever had was that this franchise is absolutely excellent at developing depth but that I'm worried about what they'd do with blue chip talent

And we've arrived

f***.

There were no spots available for blue chippers because of veterans that were acquired. What was Blake supposed to do?

 

[Bandit]

I thought Leon and McDavid were married.

Only to losing.

 

[dabeechman]

You get what you vote for. They want extra social programs that cost more tax payer dollars. I don't necessarily see that as a US franchise problem as much as I see it as something that the people of Canada are OK with accepting.

 

[Bandit]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1307477984362848257

Taxes might be good in California? I thought everyone was leaving California because of taxes? Seems like all these whiners can’t make up their minds.

I’d say more but I need to go find my hankie for all the tears I have for these poor millionaires.

 

[All The Kings Men]

I agree their overall track record of developing players is very good.

But I'm not sure how you can say "the Kings didn't have existing opportunities for young players to step up" and at the same time accuse us of liberally tossing around development, as if development and opportunity go hand in hand.

For example, I remember you mentioning in the past about the origins of your podcast. You started there, and it built up a lot of momentum and building a fanbase. Now, undoubtedly, you've probably felt and experienced granular improvements. But what if the Kings just never hired you, because there were no opportunities for you. Do you feel you would be at the same level you are now without that opportunity?

A goldfish only grows as big as the tank they're in. You can shrug and say "this is the only size tank we have" or you get a bigger tank.

When I talk about "development" being tossed around liberally I mean that people talk about development and the refer to the work of the "Development Staff" but also just general player progression.

It's not the fault of fans that the word "development" means one thing and there's an actual department called "Development"

What I'm trying to say is Jarret Stoll, Matt Greene, Sean O'Donnell, Mike Connelly et al shouldn't be blamed for the lack of Top 10 draft picks that have translated into super stars for the LA Kings because they haven't really been given a chance.

What we do know is that they churn out NHL players at a fairly high rate... a rate I have been told in multiple ways and by multiple metrics is higher than the rest of the NHL.

 

[All The Kings Men]

There were no spots available for blue chippers because of veterans that were acquired. What was Blake supposed to do?

I know you don't care and don't like me even tho I like you (beers?)

but I'm NOT saying "what was Blake supposed to do?"

I'm saying what is the development staff supposed to do?

They haven't had many blue chippers to work with in the first place and when they do work with them those blue chippers are simply not given the same opportunities that the Anze Kopitars and Drew Doughtys were given

you can't replace Jeff Carter if Jeff Carter is still in the lineup
you can't replace Matt Roy if Matt Roy is still in the lineup
you can't replace Jonathan Quick if Jonathan Quick gets the start in game one of a playoff series in a season that you started game one of the regular season

 

[King'sPawn]

When I talk about "development" being tossed around liberally I mean that people talk about development and the refer to the work of the "Development Staff" but also just general player progression.

It's not the fault of fans that the word "development" means one thing and there's an actual department called "Development"

What I'm trying to say is Jarret Stoll, Matt Greene, Sean O'Donnell, Mike Connelly et al shouldn't be blamed for the lack of Top 10 draft picks that have translated into super stars for the LA Kings because they haven't really been given a chance.

What we do know is that they churn out NHL players at a fairly high rate... a rate I have been told in multiple ways and by multiple metrics is higher than the rest of the NHL.

That's fair and I agree. I think by and large, people are criticizing development as an organizational issue - not a Stoll, Green, OD or issue with anyone in particular.

I would like to have a higher-skilled person involved in some capacity, but like I said - the team is good with generating NHLers. I don't want to take that away. I would just like to see at least an additional resource to complement what's already there.

There are, of course, references to nepotism in the org, but I don't even see that as a complaint about development staff - they have all played, and most were seen as some sort of leadership contributors in the lockerroom when they did play. They're qualified and have good results.

I'm simply of the opinion that there's a tier of talent the Kings haven't been producing, and because it's such a rare commodity anyway, it hurts the org a lot more when they have to outsource that talent via UFA signings and trades. The org doesn't have to have 23 homegrown players on the roster, but paying Vilardi, Kupari, Iafallo, + a second for PLD - when Byfield should have had the opportunity LAST YEAR - was an organizational issue and decision.

The loss of opportunity with the prospects as well as the developmental staff is on the Kings.

 

[johnjm22]

It's crazy how little take home pay these guys actually get. 5M pay, take home 1.8M.

 

[JJDrums]

Byfield....next question?

One player in 10 years? Pretty low bar there.

 

[kingsfan28]

As mentioned. The past 10 years is what I was referring to and the Kings are flops.

Name one first line or first pairing defenceman they developed.

You are missing the point. Anyone can churn out mid level players but that is not going to move the team forward and the kings have failed

Mikey Andersen. Drafted and developed by the Kings and has a regular role on the top pair with Doughty.

 

[JJDrums]

Mikey Andersen. Drafted and developed by the Kings and has a regular role on the top pair with Doughty.

Is he a first pairing defenseman on a good team ? No. He would be a good 2nd pairing dman

 

[bland]

I know you don't care and don't like me even tho I like you (beers?)

but I'm NOT saying "what was Blake supposed to do?"

I'm saying what is the development staff supposed to do?

They haven't had many blue chippers to work with in the first place and when they do work with them those blue chippers are simply not given the same opportunities that the Anze Kopitars and Drew Doughtys were given

you can't replace Jeff Carter if Jeff Carter is still in the lineup
you can't replace Matt Roy if Matt Roy is still in the lineup
you can't replace Jonathan Quick if Jonathan Quick gets the start in game one of a playoff series in a season that you started game one of the regular season

Summertime semantics.

It looks like some of this conversation developed out of posts I choose not to see, so forgive me if this is slightly off-target. But "developmental team" is as generic as saying "Blake" when folks are clearly using the figurehead as the representative of the organization when discussing that particular aspect. Obviously "Blake" isn't the person making every decision, but by being the GM his name gets to be the focal point of GM-related topics.

Chiding the organization's inability to produce impact players may be due to a wide variety of reasons, but for brevity sake that particular department gets its name used in conversation.

And, without any inside info at all and basing this strictly on the negative outcomes of way too many veteran and prospects here, I would offer that maybe the bigger problems aren't hashing out pro skill sets, but rather having some incredibly poor judges of character making the calls.

Is he a first pairing defenseman on a good team ? No. He would be a good 2nd pairing dman

The Kings are a "good" team. They just took the cake out of the oven too early and got stuck with something good that had a higher potential.

 

[Maynard]

I know you don't care and don't like me even tho I like you (beers?)

but I'm NOT saying "what was Blake supposed to do?"

I'm saying what is the development staff supposed to do?

They haven't had many blue chippers to work with in the first place and when they do work with them those blue chippers are simply not given the same opportunities that the Anze Kopitars and Drew Doughtys were given

you can't replace Jeff Carter if Jeff Carter is still in the lineup
you can't replace Matt Roy if Matt Roy is still in the lineup
you can't replace Jonathan Quick if Jonathan Quick gets the start in game one of a playoff series in a season that you started game one of the regular season

It’s not personal. I don’t like the team’s decisions with who they keep around the team and you’re the only one of them that posts here. I’m trying to lay off lately but you just seem like a mouthpiece in this thread. The Kings official Muppet! I hope it’s not Bergeron with his hand up your ass. Thick forearms on him lol.

“I’m not defending any particular regime” except for how you always defend the current regime. I understand why it’s just…yuck.

 

[dabeechman]

Taxes might be good in California? I thought everyone was leaving California because of taxes? Seems like all these whiners can’t make up their minds.

I’d say more but I need to go find my hankie for all the tears I have for these poor millionaires.

I left CA about 2yrs ago now for work. It is astounding how much cheaper life is once you get out of LA.

 

[Bandit]

I left CA about 2yrs ago now for work. It is astounding how much cheaper life is once you get out of LA.

If you move to the middle of nowhere maybe.

I too moved out of California a little over 2 years ago, and outside of real estate (which isn’t nothing, it was one of the main reasons we moved), it’s not much cheaper here.

As an example in California it cost about $600 to register mine and my wife’s car annually. Well here in CT there is property tax on cars so while registering your car is a nominal fee, I just paid a $1,500 tax bill to the city for the same two cars. Oh and that’s not annual, is bi-annual. So $600 a year to $3000.

Hating on LA/California because of taxes is nonsensical propaganda. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. State tax is a drop in the bucket compared to fed, and fed is inescapable unless you’re going off the grid. I don’t think any hockey players are giving up their careers to move to Montana and build a log cabin.