Around the league part 2

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King'sPawn

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Am i the only one that actually likes the draft and that setup? The alternative would suck as a fan imo.

Heck, look at Soccer -- it's the same biggest teams each year with the richest owners.
I love the draft, which is why I'm an ardent defender of it.

Not all players will get to play where they want, and not all teams can get who they want. It's as fair a system as possible while giving opportunities to keep teams competitive.

I do understand that some managers run a team like shit and depend on generational talent in the draft to bail them out, but getting rid of the draft won't help in a significant way to address that. It will just cause a bigger rift between qualities of teams.
 

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Teams will continue to operate as they do. Arizona, Anaheim, and other teams will continue operate on low budgets and get subsidized by the league. Large market teams, like New York and Toronto, will have large budgets.

The NHL operated without a draft before. So exciting to watch all the talent go to Montreal.

Would there be a cap on how much teams can offer? If yes, then how are some teams supposed to lure talent when most kids want to stay close to home? If no, then how are some teams supposed to afford talent if they have to keep outbidding big markets?

What about lower leagues that also use the draft, such as the USHL and CHL? Should they also be rid of since it takes away player agency?

You can look at the NCAA, Europe, and Russia to see how non-drafting works. There's less variance in the top teams in the league. And guess what? The bad teams are still bad teams.

People have to relocate for their jobs. Some offices are shittier than others. These kids join a union which has found a way to spread the talent as fairly as can be expected. If we want to go after teams that lose on purpose, maybe the NHLPA could file a grievance on poorly run teams if it mattered enough. Start actually addressing the problem instead of, you know, creating a whole new set of problems and ultimately STILL leaving people unhappy, because not everyone who wants to go to their team of choice will go.

The Kings would absolutely be hit. While they have the benefit of being an ideal place for young guys (something Lombardi told me - they had an easier time luring single guys than ones with families), they are generally so far from home that it still wouldn't be a first choice.

I get if you don't like the draft. I disagree, but I get it. It's unpredictable and people prefer more order.

You want to discourage tanking? Expand the randomness of the draft order. Any team that missed the playoffs has a chance to pick 1-16. And heck, randomize the picks from rounds 2-7 too. Of course, add some weight to the lower performing teams - as they shouldn't always be kicked when they're down. But you'll see that "playing to lose" boogeyman go away real quick once the guarantee of a top-5 pick disappears. And teams suddenly can't guarantee their pick will be 33, 34, 35, which is like getting a very late first-round pick.
I don’t like the draft from a freedom of trade standpoint. However I absolutely think it works from a sporting standpoint. The draft lottery will never be perfect and the true randomness of probability means there will be teams that appear to have good/bad luck. It is what it is.

LA in my view is not one of the teams that would be hit the heaviest as LA has a number of benefits. Obviously it’s not top of the tree either, like NY and Toronto. Its teams like Colombus, some of the Canadian markets etc I think would really suffer in such a setup.

In any case it’s not happening in the foreseeable future.
 

SmytheKing

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For what it's worth (nothing)

I was absolutely positive they were going to take Wallstedt at 8 and if Clarke had been taken earlier I am still convinced they would have taken Wallstedt at 8.
I fully expected it as well. Honestly I'm a little shocked they didn't do whatever they had to do to move up and get him later. I know they tried, but man I can't think of anything they shouldn't have given up to meet and beat that offer that MIN gave Edmonton.
 
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Schrute farms

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Also regarding the draft and freedom, players do have the opportunity to choose -- they can simply not sign and play in college or overseas for 3-4 years and become an unrestricted FA at that time and sign with whomever they want. Most drafted players are not in the NHL by that time anyway, so it's not like it's preventing them from playing in the NHL. It's not like the AHL is any better for developing players compared to college or overseas.

Sure the truly elite drafted guys (LA Kings exclude wink-wink) are different and they can start immediately or the year after in the NHL. But those guys have the advantage of starting their clock and becoming a FA much sooner in their careers. Also, it can be an advantage getting big minutes and put up big stats on a crappy team early on (future contract $$$ wise).
 

All The Kings Men

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Certain markets will struggle to ever attract quality players and you’d quickly end up with a situation where a small handful of teams repeatedly contend each year.
Everybody thinks that's what would happen but I really don't.

Johnny Gaudreau didn't sign in Columbus because he loved what the Blue Jackets were doing. He signed there because he wanted out of Calgary and they were the ones that could give him the kind of money he wanted.

There's still going to be a salary cap and roster limits and once a team like Toronto has a Matthews, Marner and Tavares then the rest of the forwards in the league will have to find somewhere else to play.

The incentive on teams will be to actually improve their organizations and appeal to players rather than just relying on a method of talent distribution that rewards ineptitude and locks players into organizations without giving them full agency over their own careers.
 

SmytheKing

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Everybody thinks that's what would happen but I really don't.

Johnny Gaudreau didn't sign in Columbus because he loved what the Blue Jackets were doing. He signed there because he wanted out of Calgary and they were the ones that could give him the kind of money he wanted.

There's still going to be a salary cap and roster limits and once a team like Toronto has a Matthews, Marner and Tavares then the rest of the forwards in the league will have to find somewhere else to play.

The incentive on teams will be to actually improve their organizations and appeal to players rather than just relying on a method of talent distribution that rewards ineptitude and locks players into organizations without giving them full agency over their own careers.
I'd like the NHL to implement a cap requirement similar to the NFL where teams have to spend over 90% of the cap. That's the easiest way to make sure teams don't tank.
 

All The Kings Men

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Teams will continue to operate as they do. Arizona, Anaheim, and other teams will continue operate on low budgets and get subsidized by the league. Large market teams, like New York and Toronto, will have large budgets.

The NHL operated without a draft before. So exciting to watch all the talent go to Montreal.
That was so long ago and a version of the NHL that doesn't exist anymore. There were 6 teams.

They didn't just "not have a draft" they had regional control. Guys from MA played for the Bruins. Guys from PQ played for Montreal. That's no longer the case and there are global players joining the league at record numbers compared to 1963.
Would there be a cap on how much teams can offer? If yes, then how are some teams supposed to lure talent when most kids want to stay close to home? If no, then how are some teams supposed to afford talent if they have to keep outbidding big markets?
Is there evidence that "most kids want to stay close to home"? With a salary cap big markets ability to "outbid" smaller markets is "capped".

See Johnny Gaudreau to the megalopolis of Columbus OH
What about lower leagues that also use the draft, such as the USHL and CHL? Should they also be rid of since it takes away player agency?
YES. You're ok with literal children being drafted and then sent away from their homes just to protect an outdated concept of parity for a league that's not even fully professional?

Why?
You can look at the NCAA, Europe, and Russia to see how non-drafting works. There's less variance in the top teams in the league. And guess what? The bad teams are still bad teams.
I can't speak to the European leagues but the KHL is hardly a comparison for any north american institution and to the best of my knowledge the number of NCAA schools platers can attend far outnumbers the 32 teams in the NHL.
People have to relocate for their jobs. Some offices are shittier than others. These kids join a union which has found a way to spread the talent as fairly as can be expected. If we want to go after teams that lose on purpose, maybe the NHLPA could file a grievance on poorly run teams if it mattered enough. Start actually addressing the problem instead of, you know, creating a whole new set of problems and ultimately STILL leaving people unhappy, because not everyone who wants to go to their team of choice will go.
It's only considered "as fairly as can be expected" because that's how it's always been done.

I personally believe (admittedly with no evidence other than what I believe to be the history of human behaviour) that players making the decisions that are best for themselves would ultimately lead to a stronger league with stronger teams.

you wouldn't have kids taken in the 3rd - 7th round who have to constantly tailor their game to fit an ever changing landscape of expectations from organizations that cycle through management teams in periods of time shorted than the average playing career.

Teams would recruit players, compensate players and be forced to be accountable for the decisions they make and the careers they influence.
The Kings would absolutely be hit. While they have the benefit of being an ideal place for young guys (something Lombardi told me - they had an easier time luring single guys than ones with families), they are generally so far from home that it still wouldn't be a first choice.
Just as it is today... teams in "less desirable" markets will have to work harder to attract talent. The only difference is that a small handful of top tier players will have a larger voice in where they play to start their careers.

Matt Roy may not have had Los Angeles as his first choice destination when he started his career. The Matt Roy's Sean Walker's, Viktor Arvidsson's and basically anybody on the Kings roster other than Drew Doughty would have had to choose where to play based on available playing time, coaching staff compatibility and a number of other factors.

People talk about getting rid of the draft as if the only players that matter in the NHL are the guys taken in the top 10 of each draft and it's just not true.

Teams win because of depth and cohesion and a ton of other factors beyond assembled "star power" yet we have a system for distributing a tiny sliver of talent that completely influences the way seasons are played and careers are shaped.
It's unpredictable and people prefer more order.
Isn't this essentially the argument for the Empire in Star Wars?

You want to discourage tanking? Expand the randomness of the draft order. Any team that missed the playoffs has a chance to pick 1-16. And heck, randomize the picks from rounds 2-7 too. Of course, add some weight to the lower performing teams - as they shouldn't always be kicked when they're down. But you'll see that "playing to lose" boogeyman go away real quick once the guarantee of a top-5 pick disappears. And teams suddenly can't guarantee their pick will be 33, 34, 35, which is like getting a very late first-round pick.
That may stop the occasional team that decides at the trade deadline to jettison all it's talent and throw in the towel but it won't stop teams like Anaheim and Chicago this year who were never trying to begin with.

The draft rewards teams that don't do well with guaranteed talent.

If you want to get rid of teams trying to lost then you have to stop rewarding teams for losing.

I'd like the NHL to implement a cap requirement similar to the NFL where teams have to spend over 90% of the cap. That's the easiest way to make sure teams don't tank.
That assumes that it is in every teams best interest to spend to 90% of the Cap.
 

SmytheKing

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That assumes that it is in every teams best interest to spend to 90% of the Cap.
Whether it is or not isn't important. You have to do it. Right now there are three teams with nearly $10 million left to spend if you make all teams spend to 90% of the cap. ARI, ANA, and BUF. Now Buffalo is there because of years of being terrible and not spending money. The other two are there because they dumped salary with the intent of being bad. You can include CHI in there as well since $10 million is Toews contract. If those teams had to spend another $10-$15 million in salaries, they're going to be better by force.

Then you've just got bad teams who spend poorly like SJ. They aren't tanking so much as they've just got a bad team.
 

tny760

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random thoughts on getting rid of the draft:

can kids successfully sell themselves to be contracted by NHL teams without the AHL-NHL process?
why wouldn't the AHL affiliate just pack themselves with a bunch of tj tynans?
what about all the 2nd-7th rounders? just trying to make a dream work but they need some help. draft puts the onus on the team to get young players
without a more robust college system or team-affiliated "academy" teams where do the non-stars go?
should NHL teams be relegated like soccer? how's an AHL team gonna hit cap floor if they do?
billet families for 16 year old kids is f***ed up, i don't like that shit at all. no 16 year old should be away from their family & school

i don't really know where i stand on this, it's just like, f***in complicated man
 

King'sPawn

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Whether it is or not isn't important. You have to do it. Right now there are three teams with nearly $10 million left to spend if you make all teams spend to 90% of the cap. ARI, ANA, and BUF. Now Buffalo is there because of years of being terrible and not spending money. The other two are there because they dumped salary with the intent of being bad. You can include CHI in there as well since $10 million is Toews contract. If those teams had to spend another $10-$15 million in salaries, they're going to be better by force.

Then you've just got bad teams who spend poorly like SJ. They aren't tanking so much as they've just got a bad team.
Yup, there are a lot of ways the league can be fine-tuned. Just a few to start:
- Players on IR cannot be traded
- The cap hit of the team roster cannot exceed the cap hit in the playoffs
- Players who count against a team's cap cannot be employed by the league
 

All The Kings Men

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random thoughts on getting rid of the draft:

can kids successfully sell themselves to be contracted by NHL teams without the AHL-NHL process?
Plenty of players get signed without being drafted. Teams have scouting departments.
why wouldn't the AHL affiliate just pack themselves with a bunch of tj tynans?
There are limits on how many veterans an AHL team can play. AHL teams are still primarily owned by NHL teams and teams would still sign players to contracts that allowed for them to play in the AHL.
what about all the 2nd-7th rounders? just trying to make a dream work but they need some help. draft puts the onus on the team to get young players
without a more robust college system or team-affiliated "academy" teams where do the non-stars go?
Why does the draft stop at the 7th round? What about all the players that signed contracts without being drafted? Talent will be distributed. Rosters will be filled with players under contract. The only difference is how those players would be entered into each organization. Rather than someone being drafted into a system that may not be ideal for them they would have a hand in choosing where their careers begin.

I'd rather have the career of a Blake Lizotte than some kid taken in the 6th round in the year Lizotte wasn't drafted that had to fight an uphill battle against an assembled group of drafted "prospects"
should NHL teams be relegated like soccer? how's an AHL team gonna hit cap floor if they do?
Maybe but it's moot since we have a minor league structure completely different than global leagues that have relegation. The ontario Reign may technically be a separate entity from the LA Kings but they're not REALLY.
billet families for 16 year old kids is f***ed up, i don't like that shit at all. no 16 year old should be away from their family & school
Not to mention the complications that have arisen when kids wind up abusing members of their billet households and probably vice versa.

but its a quaint piece of hockey history and hockey lore so people will bristle at the suggestion it be gotten rid of
i don't really know where i stand on this, it's just like, f***in complicated man
At least you settle on "I dont know where I stand"

Too many people dif in their heels when things get complicated because they don't like the idea of more questions popping up in the event that things change.

I guess they just like order.
 
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tny760

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that's a lot of good points. it's just such an upheaval. NHL wants 18 year olds but not on their NHL roster, so the CHL provides you with those in their own nice neat yearly meat grinder

i like how elite high school football players get to choose their college but then yeah, they're just lined up for the draft. maybe that's because there's no real international options. that, and the college football system in the US is so massively robust and money making in it's own right. another discussion for another day obviously, but they're controlling their destiny til that draft day at (at least) 18 years old

i like what you're saying about putting the ownership on the NHL team though cause yeah they're gonna have to now spend multitudes more effort and time researching players worldwide rather than just allowing the CHL to present the best for them
 

King'sPawn

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That was so long ago and a version of the NHL that doesn't exist anymore. There were 6 teams.

They didn't just "not have a draft" they had regional control. Guys from MA played for the Bruins. Guys from PQ played for Montreal. That's no longer the case and there are global players joining the league at record numbers compared to 1963.
So people who were close to home got to stay close to home and dominate?

Is there evidence that "most kids want to stay close to home"? With a salary cap big markets ability to "outbid" smaller markets is "capped".

See Johnny Gaudreau to the megalopolis of Columbus OH

Is there evidence that people participating in the draft actually don't like the draft?

You mean Gaudreau who signed with a team who could fit his salary demands in the cap? Is he a prospect? How many will just want to sign with Columbus, knowing salaries are equal? How many want to sign in Arizona? How many want to sign with Carolina?

YES. You're ok with literal children being drafted and then sent away from their homes just to protect an outdated concept of parity for a league that's not even fully professional?

Why?

Why is parity outdated? Because you said so?

And yes, I'm okay with literal children, who work with their parents, exercise autonomy to enter a system in which they can move out and pursue their career and dreams. Why? Because they want to pursue their dream of playing in the NHL.

I can't speak to the European leagues but the KHL is hardly a comparison for any north american institution and to the best of my knowledge the number of NCAA schools platers can attend far outnumbers the 32 teams in the NHL.

It's only considered "as fairly as can be expected" because that's how it's always been done.

Last year, there were 225 players picked in the draft. That ignores all the players who weren't picked. How would you handle if 30 players want to go to Toronto, even though the draft usually allows only 7? Do you force Toronto to take all 30? After all, you're the one up in arms about making children move far away from home. I don't know why suddenly you'd be okay with 18 year-olds making that choice.

What happens when Toronto doesn't want to take them? They move down the list to their next location, then next, until some team wants to take them. Some kids eventually have to settle for Phoenix and Columbus, even though they're last on their list.

So making it like Free Agency allows the talented kids to pick where they go, (because why would a player not sign Bedard), and screw over the less talented kids who the teams are less likely to want. Which, to me, is pretty elitist. It would also allow collusion among younger players, like if McDavid, DeBrincat, and Strome all wanted to sign with one team right out the gate.

I personally believe (admittedly with no evidence other than what I believe to be the history of human behaviour) that players making the decisions that are best for themselves would ultimately lead to a stronger league with stronger teams.

It will create stronger teams, but fewer teams. And you're still screwing over everyone but the elite.

you wouldn't have kids taken in the 3rd - 7th round who have to constantly tailor their game to fit an ever changing landscape of expectations from organizations that cycle through management teams in periods of time shorted than the average playing career.

This is amazingly the most daft statement from you. You think teams still wouldn't expect players to change, grow, and tailor their game? You think if Kaliyev's first choice was LA, and they signed him, they would be handling him differently or they wouldn't be trying to change is game?

Teams would recruit players, compensate players and be forced to be accountable for the decisions they make and the careers they influence.

This is called firing the general manager for mismanaging the team. And are players not being compensated now? Do teams not meet frequently with players before the draft? Players can also just refuse to sign. They get traded to teams they like. Just ask Adam Fox (see, I can cite singular examples too!)

You're painting a scenario of how your system is better, while acting as if it's not something now.

Just as it is today... teams in "less desirable" markets will have to work harder to attract talent. The only difference is that a small handful of top tier players will have a larger voice in where they play to start their careers.

And here it is - all that matters is what the TOP tier players get. Why do only their feelings matter?

People talk about getting rid of the draft as if the only players that matter in the NHL are the guys taken in the top 10 of each draft and it's just not true.

But the top players in each draft are the only ones who benefit MOST from your suggestion. And you admit it right above.

Teams win because of depth and cohesion and a ton of other factors beyond assembled "star power" yet we have a system for distributing a tiny sliver of talent that completely influences the way seasons are played and careers are shaped.

795 out of the 943 players who played this year are drafted. A "tiny sliver of talent"?

Isn't this essentially the argument for the Empire in Star Wars?

This is rich - the one who wants a system that primarily benefits the elite is comparing my attitude with the evil Empire. Sure. I'm aligning with the Empire.

That may stop the occasional team that decides at the trade deadline to jettison all it's talent and throw in the towel but it won't stop teams like Anaheim and Chicago this year who were never trying to begin with.

The draft rewards teams that don't do well with guaranteed talent.

If you want to get rid of teams trying to lost then you have to stop rewarding teams for losing.

You may have missed the part where teams don't get guaranteed top end talent anymore with my proposition. You mentioned Anaheim and Chicago, and in the current draft, the absolute worst they can drop is 2 spots... you want to change that? I'm all for it. Screw them. I said this back in 2019 when the Kings fell three spots - it sucks, but the Kings can't depend on the lottery to bail them out. They have to scout and draft better and improve their infrastructure so then whomever they do take, they can better prepare him for an NHL career.

They'll get a top-16 pick at worst, which sure, is still good, but they won't have the elite prospects whom you want to cater to, to save them. They can't continue to mismanage the team and ever expect the luck to go their way.

In your scenario, budget teams like Arizona and Anaheim will just always be bad because they'll be undesirable locations to sign, and have a lower budget, and the poor players who are desperate to sign anywhere to get their foot in the door will still be subjected to mismanagement and penny pinching. So... how's your solution better?
 

YP44

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So it took Zadorov one night to match Byfield's season totals...

Oh and local product and former Junior Kings goalie Dustin Wolf won in his NHL debut. He's put up spectacular numbers at every level, yet the Kings couldn't even use a 7th round pick to select him.

They drafted Lukas Parik that same year and look where he's at now.
Wolf has been undersized and it has hurt his draft and how much people are paying attention to him. He has done so well in the AHL
 

SmytheKing

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This is amazingly the most daft statement from you. You think teams still wouldn't expect players to change, grow, and tailor their game? You think if Kaliyev's first choice was LA, and they signed him, they would be handling him differently or they wouldn't be trying to change is game?
I think this is missing the point in some fashion. It's not that AK wouldn't have to change, it's that the Kings wouldn't have necessarily picked him.

If all the players were free agents, as an example, maybe the Kings don't pick Bjornfoot and AK because they were able to convince Seider and Boldy to sign with them. Boldy "fits" the Kings more than AK so that might be who they went after instead.
 

King'sPawn

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I think this is missing the point in some fashion. It's not that AK wouldn't have to change, it's that the Kings wouldn't have necessarily picked him.

If all the players were free agents, as an example, maybe the Kings don't pick Bjornfoot and AK because they were able to convince Seider and Boldy to sign with them. Boldy "fits" the Kings more than AK so that might be who they went after instead.
Or maybe the Kings signed both, since it's free agency. And Kaliyev would still have to change the way he played.

Kind of like what's happening now when they could have picked 200+ other players instead of Kaliyev at the draft.
 

SmytheKing

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Or maybe the Kings signed both, since it's free agency. And Kaliyev would still have to change the way he played.

Kind of like what's happening now when they could have picked 200+ other players instead of Kaliyev at the draft.
Of course maybe they do. The point is though, that they would have had other options that might be more in line with what they wanted to do. Also, that AK might have been signed by another team.

These are obviously all speculative opinions, but it's pointing out that eliminating the draft would allow you to get guys more in line with what you're trying to build instead of the guy who you think is a good value at that pick.

I mean, it's just like how the Kings aren't looking to sign a RD in free agency this offseason. They COULD, but why would they when better options are out there?

I don't WANT to eliminate the draft at all. I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that there are some good arguments for doing so though.
 

King'sPawn

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Of course maybe they do. The point is though, that they would have had other options that might be more in line with what they wanted to do. Also, that AK might have been signed by another team.

These are obviously all speculative opinions, but it's pointing out that eliminating the draft would allow you to get guys more in line with what you're trying to build instead of the guy who you think is a good value at that pick.

I mean, it's just like how the Kings aren't looking to sign a RD in free agency this offseason. They COULD, but why would they when better options are out there?

I don't WANT to eliminate the draft at all. I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that there are some good arguments for doing so though.
Yes, there are benefits to the system. The problem is the benefits usually go more towards the elite players and the rich teams.

I understand you're not advocating for it, but there are many reasons why it's very bad.

If (general) you want to make a system to spread talent AND give players agency AND revamp the draft system, then what about:

Make each draft eligible player list the teams they want to go to, 1-32; teams make a list of the players they want (minimum requirement is 80 players, so they don't game the system). Then a lottery happens among the players. Players get to pick from the teams who want them, up until the team hits 7 players. After 7 players join a team, that team is ineligible for anyone else.

This would:
1. Give players the agency to pick their more desirable teams, but doesn't guarantee it
2. Teams still identify the players they like that they can take
3. Doesn't reward bad teams
4. At least offers a semblance of redistribution of talent in the league, since say, Bedard may be able to get first pick or maybe he gets really unlucky and is the 200th player, so he gets to go to his 15th favorite team.
 

SmytheKing

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Yes, there are benefits to the system. The problem is the benefits usually go more towards the elite players and the rich teams.

I understand you're not advocating for it, but there are many reasons why it's very bad.

If (general) you want to make a system to spread talent AND give players agency AND revamp the draft system, then what about:

Make each draft eligible player list the teams they want to go to, 1-32; teams make a list of the players they want (minimum requirement is 80 players, so they don't game the system). Then a lottery happens among the players. Players get to pick from the teams who want them, up until the team hits 7 players. After 7 players join a team, that team is ineligible for anyone else.

This would:
1. Give players the agency to pick their more desirable teams, but doesn't guarantee it
2. Teams still identify the players they like that they can take
3. Doesn't reward bad teams
4. At least offers a semblance of redistribution of talent in the league, since say, Bedard may be able to get first pick or maybe he gets really unlucky and is the 200th player, so he gets to go to his 15th favorite team.
Honestly something like that is kind of fun too. I think we all know it would never happen, but that could be damn fun to watch shake out.

I think there's something in between all of it that could work too. Something like you're suggesting, but there's "tiers" of players where the top 20 are tier one, next 20 tier two, so on and so on.

Each team can only pick a certain number of guys from each tier so that not only can one team not get 7 of the top players, but one team won't get saddled with 7 of their bottom selections.

Something similar to an expansion draft where teams "protect" players but there's a limit to how many defenseman they can choose or, in this case, how many top tier guys they can pick.

So the players still maintain some agency, but the teams can also build some sort of drafting identity over time as well. Kids then think "Hey the Kings really fit my style of play, and they don't have a lot of RW's in their system".
 
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