Around the league part 2

[KINGS17]

Forehand vs backhand is completely different angle.

It wasn't an actual criticism. Zegras got the job done.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

i moreso just don't care about it.. it's a nice goal, it's a cool exhibition of skill. you'll take a goal any way you can get it. but he was also on the ice for 2 against and they lost 5-2

it's just kinda like, sick you hit the clip, kid. you didn't help your team win the game very much beyond that. just not gonna put much effort into making that a positive about him

Yeah this is exactly it

I have no problem with guys who play hard all around and their teams just go nowhere

I do have an issue with guys who are clearly stat padding on shit teams and putting next to no effort into winning while actively hurting their team with other shenanigans

It's not taht deep though, I think Zegras is a great player who is going to improve tons when he has to be forged in the playoff fire, I just don't go "wow" when guys are floating their way thru the season until they get the puck and an opportunity

This even applies to McDavid circa what, 3 years ago? dude was electric but they couldn't outscore their own self-inflicted problems. Now he can, and is clearly a lot spicier checking.

 

[YP44]

He's good when motivated.

he will go hot for a couple weeks and then will cool down again. No real lost. We went from Pest to Enforcer, and really i think Fiala and Vilardi have some pest to their games anyway.

 

[Herby]

A player can't have the circumstances of a bad team held against them. That much is true.

I DO think with Zegras, there are questions of his maturity and how rattled he gets when frustrated, which I think can be called into question when we think about just how much tougher playoffs get.

We don't have these discussions with Boldy, or Seider, or most other players from the 2019 draft (Caufield may be the biggest exception, but he also showed acquitted himself fairly well when the playoffs happened; AND the criticisms against him has never been attitude). Zegras' overall attitude IS a question.

It may sound unfair, but he's also brought this perception on himself.

And you can't really say it's because he's a Ducks player, either - nobody says anything bad about Mason McTavish.

Some may even argue that people are unfair in criticisms about Stutzle. Again, nobody is questioning his skillset, but some of his on-ice antics, namely his flagrant diving, have people wondering how he will behave in the playoffs when checking is much tighter and harder.

Yes, he has attitude issues on the ice. He sulks, he shows up teammates, he says stupid things and he often times gets taken off the ice for coincidental minors with much lesser players and all of times these things cause harm to his play and thus his teams play.

But can't all these things also be said about Drew Doughty for basically his entire career? And he is heading to the Hall of Fame as one of the best players in franchise history. But with Doughty its often excused as having fire, being ultra-competitive, hating to lose, insert whatever cliche.

The playoff type player thing, ya I kind of asked Johnny Utah this in another thread, what exactly is a "playoff type of player?" I mean I know the answer they will give, but is there any kind of reality behind it or is just a myth? You mentioned Caufield, and he was dogged with the same nonsense when he joined the Habs out of college, "He won't be able to do it when the games matter, when the checking gets tighter" some said, as if the regular season is roller hockey or something. Caufield of course excelled, because he is a super talented player with one of the best arsenal of shots in the league. I just don't see how Zegras who's stickhandling and playmaking rivals Caufield's shooting, won't be able to do the same when given the opportunity. It's also kind of interesting how Turcotte is called one of those "playoff" and "big game" players, with the 2021 WJC's as the main evidence to support that, the same WJC's where Zegras was the outstanding player in the tournament. I personally couldn't give two shits about the WJC in comparison to much more important levels, but that seems to be a contradiction.

I do think it's not only being a Duck, but also the situation in which it all played out. According to Rosen the Kings heavily debated the pick internally between Turcotte and Zegras before deciding on going with Turcotte. Since then Zegras has developed into a star player, who gets heavily covered by the media (which I do agree is excessive) and is now one of the faces of the league. While Turcotte has through 4 seasons been one of the worst top 5 picks in league history (12 GP, 0 points). I think that certainly plays into a lot of the dislike for Zegras (in addition to the things discussed at the beginning of this post). With MacTavish he was never in any consideration to be drafted by the Kings, as he was gone #3 and the Kings picked 7th.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Yes, he has attitude issues on the ice. He sulks, he shows up teammates, he says stupid things and he often times gets taken off the ice for coincidental minors with much lesser players and all of times these things cause harm to his play and thus his teams play.

But can't all these things also be said about Drew Doughty for basically his entire career? And he is heading to the Hall of Fame as one of the best players in franchise history. But with Doughty its often excused as having fire, being ultra-competitive, hating to lose, insert whatever cliche.

The playoff type player thing, ya I kind of asked Johnny Utah this in another thread, what exactly is a "playoff type of player?" I mean I know the answer they will give, but is there any kind of reality behind it or is just a myth? You mentioned Caufield, and he was dogged with the same nonsense when he joined the Habs out of college, "He won't be able to do it when the games matter, when the checking gets tighter" some said, as if the regular season is roller hockey or something. Caufield of course excelled, because he is a super talented player with one of the best arsenal of shots in the league. I just don't see how Zegras who's stickhandling and playmaking rivals Caufield's shooting, won't be able to do the same when given the opportunity. It's also kind of interesting how Turcotte is called one of those "playoff" and "big game" players, with the 2021 WJC's as the main evidence to support that, the same WJC's where Zegras was the outstanding player in the tournament. I personally couldn't give two shits about the WJC in comparison to much more important levels, but that seems to be a contradiction.

I do think it's not only being a Duck, but also the situation in which it all played out. According to Rosen the Kings heavily debated the pick internally between Turcotte and Zegras before deciding on going with Turcotte. Since then Zegras has developed into a star player, who gets heavily covered by the media (which I do agree is excessive) and is now one of the faces of the league. While Turcotte has through 4 seasons been one of the worst top 5 picks in league history (12 GP, 0 points). I think that certainly plays into a lot of the dislike for Zegras (in addition to the things discussed at the beginning of this post). With MacTavish he was never in any consideration to be drafted by the Kings, as he was gone #3 and the Kings picked 7th.

I mean you can 'because he's a duck' and 'because Turcotte' your way all around it all you want, this isn't exclusive to Zegras. I mentioned McDavid above too. Or Karlsson this season in particular. There are plenty of examples of guys who you can pat on the back for producing in a bad year but the question will be how do they respond to tighter games.

Yes, those things were said about Doughty--and he took more than his fair share of shit from the hockey world AND us when his play dipped and helped submarine the team, too. He got attacked pretty hardcore for sulking and playing lazy. Appropriately, mind you.

Re: playoff players no one is saying those guys CANT elevate, I'm criticizing the opposite, that going off in a lost season when you aren't playing meaningful games by January isn't worth of the overwhelming praise it gets.

 

[Herby]

I mean you can 'because he's a duck' and 'because Turcotte' your way all around it all you want, this isn't exclusive to Zegras. I mentioned McDavid above too. Or Karlsson this season in particular. There are plenty of examples of guys who you can pat on the back for producing in a bad year but the question will be how do they respond to tighter games.

Yes, those things were said about Doughty--and he took more than his fair share of shit from the hockey world AND us when his play dipped and helped submarine the team, too. He got attacked pretty hardcore for sulking and playing lazy. Appropriately, mind you.

Re: playoff players no one is saying those guys CANT elevate, I'm criticizing the opposite, that going off in a lost season when you aren't playing meaningful games by January isn't worth of the overwhelming praise it gets.

Do you think if the Kings had taken Seider, Caufield or Cozens that there is as much dislike for Zegras? I personally don't, but curious what you think.

Do you think had the Kings taken Zegras and he is centering our 2nd line on our way to the playoffs that these same criticisms happen?

Do you think if Zegras is in Carolina instead of Anaheim there is as much criticism?

Again, genuinely curious, not saying it's all fact.

As for Karlsson, he was always criticized, I think because he was always seen as a slight notch above Doughty. But even when he was maybe the best player in the world and carried Ottawa to Game 7 OT of the ECF he was IMO really unfairly criticized. Karlsson's regular and post-season production has largely been the same, btw.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Do you think if the Kings had taken Seider, Caufield or Cozens that there is as much dislike for Zegras? I personally don't, but curious what you think.

Do you think had the Kings taken Zegras and he is centering our 2nd line on our way to the playoffs that these same criticisms happen?

Do you think if Zegras is in Carolina instead of Anaheim there is as much criticism?

Again, genuinely curious, not saying it's all fact.

As for Karlsson, he was always criticized, I think because he was always seen as a slight notch above Doughty. But even when he was maybe the best player in the world and carried Ottawa to Game 7 OT of the ECF he was IMO really unfairly criticized. Karlsson's regular and post-season production has largely been the same, btw.

Probably not but my point is you're focusing on Zegras when I'm saying that's a phenomenon about a bunch of players, going off on a shitty team isn't as impressive to me as someone getting it done when things tighten up. That's all. It wasn't a microanalysis of Zegras or Karlsson or anyone linked to Kings fans supposed unfair bias.

This place was absolutely ruthless to Drew and Anze when the Kings sucked because of their parts in it too, no one was shy about calling guys out for dogging it, and that's all that's happening here.

 

[Faterson]

hfboard needs more reaction emoji's, specifically a SMH one

Absolutely! I'm currently banned, for months ahead, by the KGB, for sneezing inappropriately, from using all 4 of the current reaction emojis, and it would feel so much better if I was banned from using at least 6 of 'em!

(In Slack at our workplace, there are dozens of reaction emojis at our disposal, which helps us communicate effectively as a team, but then again, my workplace ain't located in North Korea, so there's a difference.)

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

boring night of games

 

[Shellz]

boring night of games

I was just telling my cats that.

 

[King'sPawn]

Yes, he has attitude issues on the ice. He sulks, he shows up teammates, he says stupid things and he often times gets taken off the ice for coincidental minors with much lesser players and all of times these things cause harm to his play and thus his teams play.

But can't all these things also be said about Drew Doughty for basically his entire career? And he is heading to the Hall of Fame as one of the best players in franchise history. But with Doughty its often excused as having fire, being ultra-competitive, hating to lose, insert whatever cliche.

The playoff type player thing, ya I kind of asked Johnny Utah this in another thread, what exactly is a "playoff type of player?" I mean I know the answer they will give, but is there any kind of reality behind it or is just a myth? You mentioned Caufield, and he was dogged with the same nonsense when he joined the Habs out of college, "He won't be able to do it when the games matter, when the checking gets tighter" some said, as if the regular season is roller hockey or something. Caufield of course excelled, because he is a super talented player with one of the best arsenal of shots in the league. I just don't see how Zegras who's stickhandling and playmaking rivals Caufield's shooting, won't be able to do the same when given the opportunity. It's also kind of interesting how Turcotte is called one of those "playoff" and "big game" players, with the 2021 WJC's as the main evidence to support that, the same WJC's where Zegras was the outstanding player in the tournament. I personally couldn't give two shits about the WJC in comparison to much more important levels, but that seems to be a contradiction.

I do think it's not only being a Duck, but also the situation in which it all played out. According to Rosen the Kings heavily debated the pick internally between Turcotte and Zegras before deciding on going with Turcotte. Since then Zegras has developed into a star player, who gets heavily covered by the media (which I do agree is excessive) and is now one of the faces of the league. While Turcotte has through 4 seasons been one of the worst top 5 picks in league history (12 GP, 0 points). I think that certainly plays into a lot of the dislike for Zegras (in addition to the things discussed at the beginning of this post). With MacTavish he was never in any consideration to be drafted by the Kings, as he was gone #3 and the Kings picked 7th.

I think with Doughty, it's different. Yes, Doughty would have tantrums, but he also steps up his play. When Zegras gets flustered, he can completely disappear in regular season games. Which I think is a good indicator of a "playoff" type of player, which Caufield has at least at times acquitted himself.

I honestly don't think the situation with Turcotte changes things at all. Maybe it factors in with some people, but if Zegras was doing the same stuff on some random innocuous team, like Columbus, he'd still have the same criticisms. Maybe it's my naivete, and people can just be driven by their hatred for a local rival, but those people I don't take too seriously anyway. Because their opinion would change about the player as soon as they become a Kings fan; so... why listen to them?

I can say with all honesty, and you are always welcome to throw this in my face, but I've had Zegras and Caufield outside the top 10 back in 2019, before they were taken by Anaheim and Montreal. I understand the Kings really liked him, and of course, if they took him, I'd cheer for him despite my view on his shortcomings. But he's always been a style over substance player to me. I just am drawn to different toolsets, most notably utility (which is why I was a big fan of Boldy, Seider, Byram, and Turcotte in 2019).

My overall point is there are legitimate reasons why Zegras' style of play is unimpressive. If someone were to say that about, say, Kent Johnson, I'd agree with you that criticisms for not producing more on a bad team is unfair. Or, heck, if McTavish does it on Anaheim, I don't think anyone would reasonably say that.

 

[SaltyElkHunter]

My biggest attribute for a prospect has changed with Turcotte. How sickly is he is now in the criteria. Poor dude steps on a rake whenever he walks out of the house.

 

[Fishhead]

I don't mind Zegras, he's a good player who could be great

To me, the moves he does aren't anything most NHLers can't do, guys do them in warmups often. It's not mind blowing to me just because he does it in a game.

Speaks a lot about Eakins to me, honestly. If my team was in a tight game like that I'd definitely be mentioning something to him about it, last place or not. If you miss getting cute like that it wouldn't sit well with the team, that's for sure. I certainly would wonder if looking good or flashy is taking precedent over winning and making the percentage play. I don't think Eakins runs a tight ship at all, given the frequency of it.

I'm not against creativity or stuff like that, but when it's unnecessary then it's done to show off or show someone up. Not the best teammate qualities. I know a guy like P Kane can do that every time down the ice if he wanted, just different priorities. Zegras will get that as he matures.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

All this talk about Zegras etc. The same thing can be said about Fiala.....

 

[Herby]

I think with Doughty, it's different. Yes, Doughty would have tantrums, but he also steps up his play. When Zegras gets flustered, he can completely disappear in regular season games. Which I think is a good indicator of a "playoff" type of player, which Caufield has at least at times acquitted himself.

I honestly don't think the situation with Turcotte changes things at all. Maybe it factors in with some people, but if Zegras was doing the same stuff on some random innocuous team, like Columbus, he'd still have the same criticisms. Maybe it's my naivete, and people can just be driven by their hatred for a local rival, but those people I don't take too seriously anyway. Because their opinion would change about the player as soon as they become a Kings fan; so... why listen to them?

I can say with all honesty, and you are always welcome to throw this in my face, but I've had Zegras and Caufield outside the top 10 back in 2019, before they were taken by Anaheim and Montreal. I understand the Kings really liked him, and of course, if they took him, I'd cheer for him despite my view on his shortcomings. But he's always been a style over substance player to me. I just am drawn to different toolsets, most notably utility (which is why I was a big fan of Boldy, Seider, Byram, and Turcotte in 2019).

My overall point is there are legitimate reasons why Zegras' style of play is unimpressive. If someone were to say that about, say, Kent Johnson, I'd agree with you that criticisms for not producing more on a bad team is unfair. Or, heck, if McTavish does it on Anaheim, I don't think anyone would reasonably say that.

I don't really agree that Doughty's play got better when he got angry, I think it got worse. Doughty did play well in playoff games when he was younger, Zegras has never had the chance, because much like Anze when he was younger, the team is building (largely around him). We will see how he does in good games, I just think many people incorrectly think non-gritty skilled players can't translate to the playoffs, and I think that has largely been debunked.

I don't blame anyone for having Turcotte above those guys, most of the scouting community did. I realize that the Turcotte miss was a universal one, everyone was just off on projecting his offensive game to higher levels. It's not something the Kings should be blamed for, the only blame I place on the Kings was the ridiculous development decision after his freshman year. It is extremely difficult to judge players that are essentially playing on a hand picked all-star team, playing mostly against older but not necessarily elite competition. I wish it was the way it used to be when players were drafted after their freshman seasons in the NCAA. You have dozens of players drafted from one team playing against lower competition, it's just tough to evaluate. It would be so much easier if you could see these guys at the NCAA level. Those guys are all drafted according to their true ability if they are drafted a year later.

 

[Fishhead]

All this talk about Zegras etc. The same thing can be said about Fiala.....

I don't think I've ever seen Fiala try to show someone up or do something fancy just for the sake of doing it. He's all drive and will, and while he does stupid shit it's not to make himself look better.

 

[KingsHockey24]

hfboard needs more reaction emoji's, specifically a SMH one

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I don't think I've ever seen Fiala try to show someone up or do something fancy just for the sake of doing it. He's all drive and will, and while he does stupid shit it's not to make himself look better.

More sulking, showing up teammates, lazy defensively etc....

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Uh oh

 

[Herby]

In some alternate dimension Prohorkin and/or Tkachev ended up bring for the Kings what Kuzmenko has been for Vancouver.

 

[Fishhead]

More sulking, showing up teammates, lazy defensively etc....

The last one, yes. The other two I haven't seen. Definitely doesn't show up teammates.

 

[YAYSAY]

The last one, yes. The other two I haven't seen. Definitely doesn't show up teammates.

And even lazy defensively has a caveat, I don't think I've ever seen someone work so hard to get a puck back after it's been stolen away, he'll backcheck harder than anyone in those situations. He's not a defensive player and that's not what he's ever been or expected to be

 

[Faterson]

Those ain't reaction emojis. (I find it embarrassing that the world's largest message board devoted to hockey, supposedly a tough guys' sport, is afraid to let the users show disapproval of other users' posts by means of ridiculously benign emojis. The entire world has turned into a snowflake & HFBoards is its emblem.)

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The last one, yes. The other two I haven't seen. Definitely doesn't show up teammates.

100% he does......when he thinks he should get the pass and doesn't, what does he do? Throws his arm and stick in the air etc.....it's subtle, but it's there, and there's nothing wrong with it...but it's there.