Around the league part 2

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johnjm22

Pseudo Intellectual
Aug 2, 2005
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How do you feel about the Kopitar extension? It was signed a year early for a pretty number.
Comparably Stamkos, who also won two cups and had more playoff runs, was not signed early and they are maybe going to turn the page and let him go or see if they can squeeze him in.
Another comparable is Bergeron who was taking smaller cap hits on one year deals because he wanted to win and leave more money to fill out a competitive roster.
I thought Kopitar had his best playoff this year out of the last 3 but that extension was nearsighted and not team friendly. Signing Maclellan to an extension when the writing was on the wall he wouldnt even make it through the year was also out of line and has prevented the team from getting a better coach this offseason.
The boys club and sentimental way of running a team has proven to be a failure.
I don't have a problem with criticizing the contract, or even thinking LA should move on from both players. I'm more so talking about disrespect.

Bergeron's deal was structured with bonuses to get the cap hit down. Bruins had to pay overages this year because of it. Different situation.
 

Schmooley

Registered User
Apr 5, 2016
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They've changed the depth? They brought back Lewis ffs.
Yea in the top six its been shuffled around quite a bit. Some of the guys like Kovalchuk, Arvidsson and Fiala were specifically brought in to play with Kopitar and didnt last for more than a week.
 

Sol

Smile
Jun 30, 2017
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Yea in the top six its been shuffled around quite a bit. Some of the guys like Kovalchuk, Arvidsson and Fiala were specifically brought in to play with Kopitar and didnt last for more than a week.
I think people here seem to conflate that being a bad leader means being a bad player. Kopitar and Doughty were great players in their prime and they still are pretty good. But as leaders? Now that to me is a completely different story.
 

Herby

Now I can die in peace
Feb 27, 2002
26,614
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Michigan
Pavelski was one of the best value draft picks in this century. Crazy path too, drafted after his age 18 season from the USHL, and went back to the USHL for his age 19 season before going to Madison at 20. Pavelski had that ability to just always fit in as a capable scorer on every team he played on, whether it was the USHL, Wisconsin, the NHL, the Olympics he just fit in every where he went, never a superstar but always an important piece.
 

chris kontos

Registered User
Feb 28, 2023
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On a side note, as Kings fan it will suck to see McDavid win a cup.

As a hockey fan it’d be cool to see Canada get a cup, and a player like McDavid deserves it after quite possibly being the greatest player to ever lace them up. Amazing player and it’s nice to have a player who can comfortably be mentioned with Crosby in terms of talents and accomplishments.

This hardware would solidify him as being one of the all time greats.

A truly great player with unbelievable talent, great leader since it’s always on him to put the team on his back and carry them, and lastly, he has exemplary ability to find a gear. This oilers team has honestly good defense, and has a good enough crew that they’re not much of a liability for McDavid to effectively carry.

Would be a good thing for hockey all around if they win. No one gives a shit about the Panthers. So I don’t have any interest in them winning besides the fact it’d be good for Lightning fans to get a little butthurt
As thestyle of hockey that florida plays has proven over and over again to be the winning playoff formula, it will be interesting to watch the style of edmonton (that sells tickets and that is the new nhl that the leauge wants) against the grind it out defense of florida.
Its my opinion that everything else being equal like officiating, qualityof ice and injuries that floridashould win this series almost every time. The officiating will determine more than usual and hopefully will be impartial to style
 

bland

Registered User
Jul 1, 2004
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And those same critics keep insisting the Kings needed to trade Kopitar and Doughty elsewhere, as if the players themselves have blocked the team from contending.

If Kopitar and/or Doughty were on teams like Edmonton, Tampa Bay, Colorado, or Florida, would neither team have "won jack" since 2016?

No? Then it's an org problem that can't build a successful team around them. It's not a player problem. All they have are antiquated quotes and biases disguised as objectivity.
Funny how you have never figured out that it is your own lack of objectivity that has prevented you from understanding the completely objective argument.
 

Sol

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Jun 30, 2017
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As thestyle of hockey that florida plays has proven over and over again to be the winning playoff formula, it will be interesting to watch the style of edmonton (that sells tickets and that is the new nhl that the leauge wants) against the grind it out defense of florida.
Its my opinion that everything else being equal like officiating, qualityof ice and injuries that floridashould win this series almost every time. The officiating will determine more than usual and hopefully will be impartial to style
I honestly think this isn’t Edmonton versus Florida,

I think this is McDavid solidifying his legacy and for that reason alone I don’t think they can stop the oilers. Stylistically speaking too, Canucks and Panthers aren’t very different. Oilers handled them well. There isn’t a player on the panthers that can compete with the oilers offense. And the panthers offense isn’t very impressive to trouble Edmontons good defense
 
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bland

Registered User
Jul 1, 2004
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How many times do they have to trade and rearrange the depth surrounding Kopitar and Doughty before you hold them accountable? At least partly accountable.
It's not the players themselves, it's the way that they have been viewed by the organization that has prevented growth.

Kopitar is not a great #1 center, never has been. On a team with incredible depth that didn't need a high level #1c, he profited by being able to concentrate on his game and not worry about carrying the offensive load - which is typically the role of your top center. And that lasted all of three seasons.

When the team lost that depth due to the cost of success and several highly questionable decisions, Kopitar was not able to adapt his game to meet the requirements of the position. He kept on keeping on, which was a high level of incredibly responsible play - but his team suffered.

They weren't bad enough to draft a no-brainer #1c because they kept too many quality players. They didn't draft or develop well enough to groom a true #1c offensive center, and due to the high cap hits of the players they kept and the faith in Anze, they didn't have the cap or desire to acquire one via trade.

Hence mediocrity and the continual over use of the wrong player as a focal point of your teams offense. What good is having a matchup #1c whose offense is routinely in the bottom half and sometimes third of top line center production when your team badly needs offense?
 

tny760

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
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Come to LA Connor. You won't have to deal with any of this.
man i'm all for picking your battles when you've got your family around but that guy just sat in your trunk as you were loading it and grabbed you as you sat in the driver's seat.. and you sat there silently and took it. f*** private security he needs some dignity first
 
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chris kontos

Registered User
Feb 28, 2023
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man i'm all for picking your battles when you've got your family around but that guy just sat in your trunk as you were loading it and grabbed you as you sat in the driver's seat.. and you sat there silently and took it. f*** private security he needs some dignity first
Man
Puttin thier hands on him. Thats a low grade assault
 
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King'sPawn

Enjoy the chaos
Jul 1, 2003
22,578
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How many times do they have to trade and rearrange the depth surrounding Kopitar and Doughty before you hold them accountable? At least partly accountable.
I never said don't hold them accountable.

I just reject the notion that the only answer is to trade them away for the Kings to win anything.
 

johnjm22

Pseudo Intellectual
Aug 2, 2005
20,544
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It's one thing to approach a public figure you're a fan of respectfully, but putting your hands on them and invading their space is nuts.

It's not only rude, it's also selfish. They're just doing it to have cool upload on their social media accounts.
 

Schmooley

Registered User
Apr 5, 2016
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I never said don't hold them accountable.

I just reject the notion that the only answer is to trade them away for the Kings to win anything.
Well they didnt win anything with Kopitar and Doughty making 10 million. They tried filling out the team with veterans, youth, guys in their late 20s prime…
Nothing worked in the time frame of Kopitars deal and it expired this offseason. You watched it not work with your own eyes. I dont know what more proof you need to see that it didnt work.
The furthest they made it in the last 10 years was when Doughty was injured and didnt play. You are going nowhere with him playing the minutes he does.
And he had a great season and some great moments in the playoffs. It is not that he sucks or anything like that.
 

GoldenBearHockey

Registered User
Jan 6, 2014
10,075
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man i'm all for picking your battles when you've got your family around but that guy just sat in your trunk as you were loading it and grabbed you as you sat in the driver's seat.. and you sat there silently and took it. f*** private security he needs some dignity first

What else is he realistically going to do? It's bullshit and people need to be put int heir place and grow some damn manners.....but all he can do is ignore them without causing a much bigger issue for himself
 

King'sPawn

Enjoy the chaos
Jul 1, 2003
22,578
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Funny how you have never figured out that it is your own lack of objectivity that has prevented you from understanding the completely objective argument.
Your argument is that Kopitar not being traded is what stopped the Kings from winning anything. Each time fault is pointed in your reasoning, you come up with an additional line of reasoning that ultimately points to you alluding to Kopitar being some sort of poison in the organization, and ridding him is the antidote. Excuse me if I don't articulate the timeline of all your different arguments..

You have an absolute approach to resolving an issue, for a game that has many immeasurable variables - which is also why you reject analytics. Yet there is only one path to fix the mess the org is in. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Instead of realizing it's management's refusal and inability to promote players above him (and Doughty) to forge a new identity and core leadership.

I've said before if Kopitar/Doughty weren't willing to go with a rebuild, they should be traded. You mistake me thinking your all-or-nothing ridiculousness is absurd as outright refusal to accept a trade.

Still haven't heard you admit your bias against Kopitar, despite me admitting many times I have bias towards him. I have bias, but not blindness. I suppose it's possible you actually believe you're objective about Kopitar, but that makes this conversation all the more pointless.

Well they didnt win anything with Kopitar and Doughty making 10 million. They tried filling out the team with veterans, youth, guys in their late 20s prime…
Nothing worked in the time frame of Kopitars deal and it expired this offseason. You watched it not work with your own eyes. I dont know what more proof you need to see that it didnt work.
The furthest they made it in the last 10 years was when Doughty was injured and didnt play. You are going nowhere with him playing the minutes he does.
And he had a great season and some great moments in the playoffs. It is not that he sucks or anything like that.
If you're saying they need fewer minutes and be depended on less, I agree. I've been saying since 2016 there are infrastructure issues, and development leaves a lot to be desired. Their highest scoring forwards drafted and developed since 2006 and actually contributed to the Kings are Kempe (75 points) and Toffoli (58 points). Third is Byfield, who went 2nd overall 4 years ago, with 55 points.

With that type of developmental output in the last 18 years, what are we expecting? You think trading Kopitar to get more picks would save the org? With how they handle them?

The org is far from perfect. Kopitar is far from perfect. But trading Kopitar would have resolved nothing as long as the decisionmakers operating internally remain. That's the problem, to me. Not the decision to keep one or two players, who should have been playing in reduced roles by now.
 

johnjm22

Pseudo Intellectual
Aug 2, 2005
20,544
16,970
Kings needed to rebuild. You could do it with or without DD & AK. If they're not onboard with it they can ask to be traded. You can never blame a player for wanting to win.

It really comes down to ownership's decision.

The leadership stuff is also bogus. You could be the greatest leader on earth an you're not going to win anything if your team isn't good enough. No one around here would have any idea if these guys were good "leaders" or not anyways.
 

BigKing

Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
Mar 11, 2003
11,624
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I know there's different types of fans who pay more or less attention to certain aspects of the game. For me, the type of stuff you're talking about here barely even registers. It's not something I would ever even think about.

Sometimes after games Johnny Utah will post about how this player or that player got ran, and all this dirty stuff that went on, and I'm thinking "Dang. All that stuff really happened? I didn't even notice!"

The DD/Tkachuk stuff was just a cute little thing. It didn't mean much to me. I don't want Drew fighting, and I like Drew's mouthy banter. It's fun. He's a fun player.

Calling Doughty a bitch is total unappreciative bull shit IMO.
First, we are on a message board where hyperbole is expected. A guy that plays the minutes he does while hitting, blocking shots etc...is not a "bitch". That said, he acted like one with Tkachuk and there is zero argument against that. It isn't even like he turned the other cheek and didn't engage: he did engage but only with his mouth and he looked silly while doing it. Calling a spade a spade isn't being unappreciative: I'd gladly take the biggest p***y in the league on this team if they were delivering Cups.

I'd love a world where Doughty is the toughest guy in the league and adds ten fights a season where he demolishes guys. That would make him the most popular player in the league. I don't expect that and don't necessarily want him to fight; however, there is a time and place for it and the Tkachuk thing was definitely the time as it coincided with him transitioning into a true leadership role on this team. It was only a cute thing if you don't put any stock in the game within the game. Here's to hoping that they can build some "xBITCH above replacement" stat or something silly to help quantify how things like this impact a team so everyone can get on board.

I notice all the things Johnny Utah does as well but I also know that many things he points out actually don't matter as much anymore even if some of us wish it still did. Some things never die though and one of those things is your leaders doing things that make you want to not only follow them but also run through a brick wall for them. Drew being repeatedly targeted by a smaller guy and never sticking up for himself begs the question "Would he stick up for me?". We all know the answer is "no" and that mentality then flows through the rest of the roster and is poison when it comes to integrating young players.

It was extremely telling that nobody did a thing the rest of that Calgary game after the initial elbow. The team only did something after being criticized in the media and, even in that next game, Tkachuk was taking giant runs at Doughty even after fighting McNabb. A 19 year old rookie! Since that time, multiple Kings have been injured on dirty hits with nobody doing anything about it at the time or in the rematch, including Hakanpaa kneeing Doughty and knocking him out of the lineup for over a month. The worst thing that has happened to someone who injured a King on a dirty hit was Blake trading for Fiala and putting him on this roster.

Now, if you have a locker room that won't stand for that shit, the rest of the Calgary game after the elbow would have been super spicy. This is the country club atmosphere most of us rail against: these guys want to win, sure, but not at the cost it requires. Blake just said as much during the Hiller presser and it all starts at the top and trickles down. That's not just a critique of Doughty--and to some extents Kopitar--but Management and coaching as well. When it comes to 11 and 8, it doesn't mean I'm ungrateful for their years of service as I will never come close to being ungrateful for two players that are key reasons for the two happiest moments of my sports fandom and, honestly, probably two of the Top 5 happiest moments of my life--your call if that is an indictment of my life or not.

That said, they've made like $100MM while I pay to go to watch them and they have not provided much to be happy about since the Tkachuk incident outside of pre-game ceremonies. It doesn't make me ungrateful for what they have given me, but it also doesn't mean that they are above criticism when warranted. We will continue to disagree on this particular issue but I will never waver on my belief that precedent is set by leadership and the Tkachuk miniseries and Doughty's lack of actionable leadership during it--and arguably ever when it comes to things like this--is a problem that continues to plague this team all the way to the present day.
 

tny760

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
20,184
21,880
No Strawberry Hill? Dude has the palate of a junior high school girl.

A week off between conference finals and SCF is bush league.
Let's go Panthers!
you already know he's bonkin the nose beers
 

bland

Registered User
Jul 1, 2004
7,733
11,594
Your argument is that Kopitar not being traded is what stopped the Kings from winning anything. Each time fault is pointed in your reasoning, you come up with an additional line of reasoning that ultimately points to you alluding to Kopitar being some sort of poison in the organization, and ridding him is the antidote. Excuse me if I don't articulate the timeline of all your different arguments..

You have an absolute approach to resolving an issue, for a game that has many immeasurable variables - which is also why you reject analytics. Yet there is only one path to fix the mess the org is in. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Instead of realizing it's management's refusal and inability to promote players above him (and Doughty) to forge a new identity and core leadership.

I've said before if Kopitar/Doughty weren't willing to go with a rebuild, they should be traded. You mistake me thinking your all-or-nothing ridiculousness is absurd as outright refusal to accept a trade.

Still haven't heard you admit your bias against Kopitar, despite me admitting many times I have bias towards him. I have bias, but not blindness. I suppose it's possible you actually believe you're objective about Kopitar, but that makes this conversation all the more pointless.


If you're saying they need fewer minutes and be depended on less, I agree. I've been saying since 2016 there are infrastructure issues, and development leaves a lot to be desired. Their highest scoring forwards drafted and developed since 2006 and actually contributed to the Kings are Kempe (75 points) and Toffoli (58 points). Third is Byfield, who went 2nd overall 4 years ago, with 55 points.

With that type of developmental output in the last 18 years, what are we expecting? You think trading Kopitar to get more picks would save the org? With how they handle them?

The org is far from perfect. Kopitar is far from perfect. But trading Kopitar would have resolved nothing as long as the decisionmakers operating internally remain. That's the problem, to me. Not the decision to keep one or two players, who should have been playing in reduced roles by now.
Once again, you let your emotion for a player override your ability to understand a rational argument that you happen to disagree with. There is zero bias here. I don't marry myself to players, I don't get caught up in short term worries over individual mistakes. I care only about the longterm health of the organization and fully understand that no player is above that reasoning. I didn't accuse anyone of "bias" when it was time for my favorite players - Frolov and Williams - to go. Hell, I argued FOR their departures because it didn't make sense to retain them - just as ALL available evidence indicated that it made very little sense to retain Kopitar.

Kopitar is the issue here because his previous deal was expiring just as it became crystal clear that the longterm health was in serious jeopardy and that if they were bold enough to move him they would have jump started what was absolutely inevitable and would have saved the team and it's fan base years and years and years of a steady decline. Instead they chose death by a thousand snores.

It's just sad that you repeatedly have to manufacture some "bias" here instead of dealing with the argument on its merits. I haven't criticized Kopitar more or less than ANY of the players in that era. I was against Quick's ten year contract, advocated moving Brown, and celebrated the deal that saw Carter leave. I have mentioned that had Doughty's deal expired first that it would have been fruitful to deal him too, yet Anze is the one that continuously sticks in your craw. That is YOUR bias at play, not mine.

Just why was it so damn important to retain him back then AND re-sign him for two more years? This is a player whose skill sets are maximized on a veteran team with aspirations but are nearly irrelevant on a building or struggling team that badly, badly needed offense over a safety first, second and third top line center. So what gives?
 
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