Around the League - Offseason Edition

[BertCorbeau]

High draft picks, incredible work ethics, physical players. With the exception of Chabot I think they're calculated risks that are more likely to pay off. Additionally, if your a market like Ottawa, that has hard times attracting free agents you're best to lock up your best assets long term first chance you get.

Looks like its working for Tkachuk too .. and Chabot's done well. Hasn't stood out but he's been fed a shit ton of minutes in his career.

 

[LaPlante94]

You think they're running 3-4 D on the powerplay?

I think Chychrun and Sanderson played on PP2 together last season with Chabot on PP1 when Chabot was playing. I think those 2 are better options than some of their depth forwards on the PP2 but I guess we'll see.

 

[IPS]

Thought this was kind of peculiar... Think the WJC info is gonna go down soon.

Guilty or not it's the right thing to do. They likely have a legal team advising them to do so.

 

[francis246]

High draft picks, incredible work ethics, physical players. With the exception of Chabot I think they're calculated risks that are more likely to pay off. Additionally, if your a market like Ottawa, that has hard times attracting free agents you're best to lock up your best assets long term first chance you get.

They have had some misses with this strategy, they gave Colin white a huge deal at 4 million per and then had to buy him out.

I do think Ottawa is one of the most overhyped teams. They need some veteran presence on that team or they are never going to win anything. For all their stud dmen they sure do leak a lot of goals yearly lol.

Now Montreal and Buffalo those are teams we as Leafs fans need to be shitting our pants about. Especially Buffalo

 

[Rob Brown]

Thought this was kind of peculiar... Think the WJC info is gonna go down soon.

Saw somewhere on Twitter that Dube has always been private on IG.

As mentioned, guilty or not, they were probably advised to go private and to stop posting on social media and also probably don't want to constantly read shit about themselves on their own posts. Not saying any of Hart, Dube, or Howden are innocent, but this doesn't necessarily mean anything. People always try to over analyze social media and this Grav guy is an idiot - it's not proof of anything.

 

[Peasy]

Meanwhile in Toronto

 

[Rob Brown]

Meanwhile in Toronto

One major problem/factor in our situation is that Dubas enabled them to feel entitled. If he signed Matthews to a more reasonable first deal, Marner wouldn't have gotten as much, and so on. Difference in Ottawa is that Tkachuk signed long term at a reasonable deal and everyone else fell in line.

 

[Peasy]

One major problem/factor in our situation is that Dubas enabled them to feel entitled. If he signed Matthews to a more reasonable first deal, Marner wouldn't have gotten as much, and so on. Difference in Ottawa is that Tkachuk signed long term at a reasonable deal and everyone else fell in line.

Exactly. Their early guys set the tone (Chabot as well), and the younger guys just followed suit.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Sens fans seem to be celebrating this move but I think it might also be the price of doing business in Ottawa. Back the Brinks truck up early and don’t even give these kids the time to breakout and start eyeballing an exit. Not saying everyone wants to leave Ottawa but they probably want to avoid letting a Stutzle and Sanderson get to the end of their ELC’s, have the hockey world hyping them up and then have other teams start sniffing around.

Ya it could be but I think it's a deliberate strategy rather than a requirement to keep them there. Possibly some extra cash required though compared to other teams

It's worth it tbh. Especially with Stutzle and Sanderson. With cap rising and knowing players are gonna be getting crazy amounts of money the next 2-3 years it's safer to give them the long term contract at a cap hit they'd probably get putting up 50-60 points in a few years. Look at Hughes in New Jersey. They locked him up for his 20s at 8 million and he's already rewarded them with a 99 point season and a pretty good 1st playoffs performance.

Ya agreed, I like it as a strategy. Manageable risk and a huge reward. Only way you get sweetheart deals is by locking guys up long terms early in there careers

It's smart. The downsides are fairly low for players of that caliber. The buyout in a few years is fairly minimal as well. There are risks of course but locking up talent that early to long-term deals can be huge.

I wish our management had that level of aggressiveness to lock up talent years ago.

100%, Ottawa will be scary pretty soon if things keep trending in this direction

Given the market, I think they really have to be pretty aggressive trying to get their rfas locked in long term, and that comes with a cost.

The most recent deal is fairish - though likely favours the player for the first 4 years or so

I feel like if we get the huge cap bumps in the next 2 years, 8 million will be given to 2nd liners soon so could even be a good contract after year 3

 

[Ziggdiezan]

High draft picks, incredible work ethics, physical players. With the exception of Chabot I think they're calculated risks that are more likely to pay off. Additionally, if your a market like Ottawa, that has hard times attracting free agents you're best to lock up your best assets long term first chance you get.

Yup, my buddy is a huge Sens fan so I'm at least happy for him lol. Would be fun to get those classic battle of Ontario games like the early 2000s

 

[Sypher04]

Setting the tone for your RFA signings is a lot easier to do when none of them are in the same class as Matthews is.

That said, Ottawa has done well mostly.

 

[francis246]

One major problem/factor in our situation is that Dubas enabled them to feel entitled. If he signed Matthews to a more reasonable first deal, Marner wouldn't have gotten as much, and so on. Difference in Ottawa is that Tkachuk signed long term at a reasonable deal and everyone else fell in line.

Well if we were to believe the rumours Marner was willing to sign an 8 year deal after his second year in the league. Team didn’t want to give him that deal.


Also a lot of those Ottawa guys IMO are overpaid for what they bring but I understand your sentiment. The internal cap structure was set by Brady and it made the subsequent signings easier. I do think Ottawa will be hating a lot of those deals. Maybe not Stuzle but the other guys are overpaid.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Setting the tone for your RFA signings is a lot easier to do when none of them are in the same class as Matthews is.

That said, Ottawa has done well mostly.

Good young core and all, but they all negotiated their contract extensions without a single playoff game under their belt.

Definitely not the same circumstances.

 

[Sun God Nika]

Well if we were to believe the rumours Marner was willing to sign an 8 year deal after his second year in the league. Team didn’t want to give him that deal.


Also a lot of those Ottawa guys IMO are overpaid for what they bring but I understand your sentiment. The internal cap structure was set by Brady and it made the subsequent signings easier. I do think Ottawa will be hating a lot of those deals. Maybe not Stuzle but the other guys are overpaid.

I would say Chabot is overpaid but useful and definitely not an anchor. Norris is debatable he is a 35+ goal scorer just entering his prime as a two way centre but there is the health question

Brady just had 80+ pts he could realistically get 9-10 in free agency . Batherson contract is a steal for the sens.

Stutzle is a top 5 contract in the league

 

[conFABulator]

I would say Chabot is overpaid but useful and definitely not an anchor. Norris is debatable he is a 35+ goal scorer just entering his prime as a two way centre but there is the health question

Brady just had 80+ pts he could realistically get 9-10 in free agency . Batherson contract is a steal for the sens.

Stutzle is a top 5 contract in the league

I think with an approach like the one the Senators are taking should be assessed with more of a "portfolio" approach.

They have five guys at a combined $40M per year for eight years each. Given the age and lack of track record each of these guys had at the time of signing there was heightened risk. Risk for each side. Maybe the Sens jumped the gun and signed someone for too much and too long, or they made a good gamble and got someone for a "steal".

Given that this is a strategy across five players it's reasonable to assess its success across all five. If a couple guys provide value equal to their contracts and one or two outperforms theirs by 20% while one or two underperform by 10% or 20% then on the whole, they worked out.

My prediction is that Stutzle and Tkachuk outperform their deals. If one of Chabot, Norris or Sanderson provide value even equal to their deals then this was a good approach. An argument could be made that Chabot already is.

This is a good approach for a small market team with retention concerns. They are betting on a window opening here.

 

[Jmo89]

One major problem/factor in our situation is that Dubas enabled them to feel entitled. If he signed Matthews to a more reasonable first deal, Marner wouldn't have gotten as much, and so on. Difference in Ottawa is that Tkachuk signed long term at a reasonable deal and everyone else fell in line.

The usual 3 posters are on the way to tell you how wrong you are.

Dubas also messed up by not signing either one early. The rumored deals that were available the summer they were eligible for extensions were better than what they got.

The best drafted talent they had in decades and they didn't sign any of Nylander (Lou), Marner, or Matthews the summers they were first eligible for extensions.

 

[Antropovsky]

One major problem/factor in our situation is that Dubas enabled them to feel entitled. If he signed Matthews to a more reasonable first deal, Marner wouldn't have gotten as much, and so on. Difference in Ottawa is that Tkachuk signed long term at a reasonable deal and everyone else fell in line.

Matthews deal was fine. If he gets to RFA period... He gets showered in offer sheets, some at maximum. He wasn't greedy enough to do that. Which we should praise him for.

Marner, on the other hand, went to the offersheet period and got nothing significant. We know enough of his dad; he wanted Marner to be the highest paid Leaf.

Yet, Dubas still gave him a deal that would've gotten the Leafs 4 first round picks, he also gave him bonuses that are unheard of and got only a 6 year term. Dubas literally gave Marner a better deal than any other team would and did offer Marner lol. He should have done what Carolina did and let someone else negotiate a contract for him and match it. It would've been better for the leafs.

Marner made it to the market as an RFA, he understood what the market for him was, he saw his leverage slipping through his fingers...so he ran back to Dubas and Dubas caved.

 

[tokyoite]

former leaf kasperi kapanen was arrested for aggravated drunk driving
in his home country finland. he is due to appear in the court next spring.

 

[francis246]

Matthews deal was fine. If he gets to RFA period... He gets showered in offer sheets, some at maximum. He wasn't greedy enough to do that. Which we should praise him for.

Marner, on the other hand, went to the offersheet period and got nothing significant. We know enough of his dad; he wanted Marner to be the highest paid Leaf.

Yet, Dubas still gave him a deal that would've gotten the Leafs 4 first round picks, he also gave him bonuses that are unheard of and got only a 6 year term. Dubas literally gave Marner a better deal than any other team would and did offer Marner lol. He should have done what Carolina did and let someone else negotiate a contract for him and match it. It would've been better for the leafs.

Marner made it to the market as an RFA, he understood what the market for him was, he saw his leverage slipping through his fingers...so he ran back to Dubas and Dubas caved.

Bonuses that are unheard of? What were those bonuses? I don’t get why people care how the money is payed to the players? If the team wants to pay out a lump sum of player contracts on July 1st every year because they have the financial ability to, who cares?

Marner’s salary structure is no different than any other star player on a good team with strong fiances. You make it seem like Marner reinvented the wheel for Christ Sake. Front loaded contracts and signing bonuses have been around for like 10 years plus. Probably longer but we just found out about it with salary disclosure in the last 20ish years, Pretty sure many of the other guys on the leafs had their contracts structured similarly.

 

[Antropovsky]

Bonuses that are unheard of? What were those bonuses? I don’t get why people care how the money is payed to the players? If the team wants to pay out a lump sum of player contracts on July 1st every year because they have the financial ability to, who cares?

Marner’s salary structure is no different than any other star player on a good team with strong fiances. You make it seem like Marner reinvented the wheel for Christ Sake. Front loaded contracts and signing bonuses have been around for like 10 years plus. Probably longer but we just found out about it with salary disclosure in the last 20ish years, Pretty sure many of the other guys on the leafs had their contracts structured similarly.

Pretty unheard of amount.....

Marner gets 60 mill in bonuses
Eichel gets 15 mill in bonuses
Fox gets 17.5 mill in bonuses
Rantanen gets 0 in bonuses
Gaudreau gets 17 mill bonuses
B.Tkatchuk gets 0 mill bonuses
Makar gets 1 million bonuses
Aho new contract 16 mill bonus
P.kane 44 million
Crosby 0 million bonuses

But you've only proven my point further.... Dubas gave Marner a contract nobody was going to offer him, some teams couldn't even if they had the cap space.

What are you getting at?

 

[ACC1224]

Bonuses that are unheard of? What were those bonuses? I don’t get why people care how the money is payed to the players? If the team wants to pay out a lump sum of player contracts on July 1st every year because they have the financial ability to, who cares?

Marner’s salary structure is no different than any other star player on a good team with strong fiances. You make it seem like Marner reinvented the wheel for Christ Sake. Front loaded contracts and signing bonuses have been around for like 10 years plus. Probably longer but we just found out about it with salary disclosure in the last 20ish years, Pretty sure many of the other guys on the leafs had their contracts structured similarly.

It's always been one of the dumber things to be critical of.

 

[francis246]

Pretty unheard of amount.....

Marner gets 60 mill in bonuses
Eichel gets 15 mill in bonuses
Fox gets 17.5 mill in bonuses
Rantanen gets 0 in bonuses
Gaudreau gets 17 mill bonuses
B.Tkatchuk gets 0 mill bonuses
Makar gets 1 million bonuses
Aho new contract 16 mill bonus
P.kane 44 million
Crosby 0 million bonuses

But you've only proven my point further.... Dubas gave Marner a contract nobody was going to offer him, some teams couldn't even if they had the cap space.

What are you getting at?

What does that have to do with anything? It’s a moot point. The Leafs are able to structure the contract that way because they are financially able to give out lump sums. It’s not like the bonus is separate from his contract. All the bonus is, that on July 1st he gets a majority of his yearly salary on that day. I don’t see how that should be seen as a negative or something against Marner or Matthews who also has the same structure yet you don’t say nothing about him.

Organizations like Ottawa and Pittsburgh could NEVER afford to structure a salary like that because they don’t have two mega corporations backing them. MLSE has a ton of cash so it makes no difference to them whether they spread a players salary over 12 months or pay a majority of it out in one month.

Dubas gave Marner a contract structure that the Leafs can do because they are rich. Other teams would have no issues paying Marner 10.9 over 12 months.

The leafs financial might allows them to front load the contract and pay him more up front less towards the end. ( this concept has been going on for 20+ years) if other organizations had the cash flow and revenue to do it for their stars, they 100% would. It really has little to do with Marner as a player per say. Teams easily could afford Marner’s contract if his AAV was his set yearly salary. Some teams are just not able to front load or pay a majority in a yearly bonus. You got no valid argument on this.

 

[Stephen]

Setting the tone for your RFA signings is a lot easier to do when none of them are in the same class as Matthews is.

That said, Ottawa has done well mostly.

I think they’ve done fairly badly over the years on the long term contract front but they’re not a competitive team with anywhere to go so no one’s really keeping track.

Matt Murray was signed by them. Brutal.

Thomas Chabot was signed to the original Jake Sanderson contract. He’s probably not worth his money.

Colin White was bought out.

 

[Stephen]

Pretty unheard of amount.....

Marner gets 60 mill in bonuses
Eichel gets 15 mill in bonuses
Fox gets 17.5 mill in bonuses
Rantanen gets 0 in bonuses
Gaudreau gets 17 mill bonuses
B.Tkatchuk gets 0 mill bonuses
Makar gets 1 million bonuses
Aho new contract 16 mill bonus
P.kane 44 million
Crosby 0 million bonuses

But you've only proven my point further.... Dubas gave Marner a contract nobody was going to offer him, some teams couldn't even if they had the cap space.

What are you getting at?

Dubas and Treliving could have probably extracted other concessions here and there in exchange for these massive bonus heavy deals… but other than not leveraging to the full advantage of the team on other items - and making them buyout proof, not that they’ll ever be bought out - it isn’t that much of a factor that impacts us at the fan “enjoyment” level.

 

[Antropovsky]

What does that have to do with anything? It’s a moot point. The Leafs are able to structure the contract that way because they are financially able to give out lump sums. It’s not like the bonus is separate from his contract. All the bonus is, that on July 1st he gets a majority of his yearly salary on that day. I don’t see how that should be seen as a negative or something against Marner or Matthews who also has the same structure yet you don’t say nothing about him.

Organizations like Ottawa and Pittsburgh could NEVER afford to structure a salary like that because they don’t have two mega corporations backing them. MLSE has a ton of cash so it makes no difference to them whether they spread a players salary over 12 months or pay a majority of it out in one month.

Dubas gave Marner a contract structure that the Leafs can do because they are rich. Other teams would have no issues paying Marner 10.9 over 12 months.

The leafs financial might allows them to front load the contract and pay him more up front less towards the end. ( this concept has been going on for 20+ years) if other organizations had the cash flow and revenue to do it for their stars, they 100% would. It really has little to do with Marner as a player per say. Teams easily could afford Marner’s contract if his AAV was his set yearly salary. Some teams are just not able to front load or pay a majority in a yearly bonus. You got no valid argument on this.

Since your struggling to understand I will give you the advantages in bullet points:

- Bonuses are lockout proof
- please explain why this isn't an advantage for a player
- Bonuses are buyout proof
- please explain why this isn't an advantage to a player
- Bonuses are paid in a lump sum and 66% of Marners money was paid by year 3.
- please explain why this quote is entirely wrong: "a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. This is due to the time value of money, which recognizes that money is worth less the longer you must wait to receive it"