Around the League - Offseason Edition

[TMLBlueandWhite]

The NHL has very strict rules regarding many things like franchise ownership, gambling on games, salary cap circumvention, tampering, etc. Unless of course they choose to ignore the aforementioned. The NHL is a lawless clique that pretends to be upstanding and moral. Everyone should know better.

Thanks for the response.

I agree. Corruption is systemic. And hockey is corrupt.

At all levels.

 

[IPS]

Crosby just put up 93 points and Malkin was ppg.

11th/16th in ppg for C.

They still have some gas in the tank.

Wasn't Malkin like 60th in ES scoring?

Can't forget that PP points don't count [MOD]

 

[andora]

Wasn't Malkin like 60th in ES scoring?

Can't forget that PP points don't count [MOD]

Dont forget empty net points too

 

[ULF_55]

The Pens are in a fairly unique situation though where they need to find ways to boost their teams competitiveness as much as possible over the next 2-3 seasons and after that know they will be rebuilding.

The risks with EK contract in that context are fairly minimal, and the payoff is likely far greater than what they could have alternatively done with those two picks.

Crosby and Malkin, who both just played 82 games have a combined Cap Hit of $14.8 for the next 2 years. Then Malkin is off their cap.

Karlsson turned 33 in May coming off a pretty good season.

Combined: Karlsson, Crosby, Malkin and retention: $26.4mm ...
Matthews and Tavares next year: 24.5

Pittsburgh doesn't have a Cap Issue with this, but certainly a much higher risk of injury.

Yeah, I'd rather the Leafs line-up going forward but Penguins are riding out their two 3 time Cup winners careers by going all in. Hopefully Leafs get to do the same thing in 10 years.

 

[justashadowof]

Think of the Pens as this: they're committed to riding out the careers of their first ballot hall of famers to retirement by respectfully attempting to contend in those players' sunset years. They can still fill the stadium marketing the legacy. If their corporate ownership couldn't get the gates I'm sure they would've started the rebuild a year ago. It's kind of interesting to see how far they can take this thing. I don't think very far despite the unquestionable competitive burn inside their star players, age gets even the most robust super athlete eventually and that process accelerates north of 35.

 

[saffronleaf]

Hopefully Leafs get to do the same thing in 10 years.

lmao good one

 

[Da Mash]

Nice move by Dubas. Window is closing and he made a move for Crosby and others and unloaded some contracts.

That being said…I’m happy the leafs didn’t get EK. He is just terrible defensively.

 

[ULF_55]

I don’t get this “2-3 year window” for the Pens. Sid just turned 36 today, Malkin is 37, ditto Letang and they’ll have the oldest roster in the league, clearly on the decline. I’d argue the window is only open a small crack today and slammed shut probably this year. It’s silly to think a 38 year old Sid can still lead a team to a cup. Honestly, the “bold” move for Dubas was to convince his owners to begin the rebuild now, instead to trying to catch lightning in a bottle. I don’t see it, the core is too old. EK doesn’t get them over the top and now you’ve got what was considered a “boat anchor” contract just last summer. Seems more risky than sound management to me, even lauding what they gave up, it’s because with that contract he has limited appeal, hence this kind of return. I thought the Pens were done as legit contenders long before Dubas arrived, this just prolongs “there will be pain” imo.

I think both this is good and this is re-arranging chairs on the Titanic.

If at the beginning of the trip you knew you were going down, wouldn't you want first class all the way? Drain the account and live it to the fullest.

Well, Penguins know it's going down!

 

[notbias]

Wasn't Malkin like 60th in ES scoring?

Can't forget that PP points don't count with all the great arguments that you and your boy Dekes have had in the contract negotiation threads this summer.

I said ppg for a specific reason, Malkin almost never plays a full season but usually plays playoffs... Crosby was top 10 if you are just using point totals.

Sure, if you want to use ESP:
MacKinnon > McDavid
Crosby is top 5
Malkin is 30th

 

[Menzinger]

I think both this is good and this is re-arranging chairs on the Titanic.

If at the beginning of the trip you knew you were going down, wouldn't you want first class all the way? Drain the account and live it to the fullest.

Well, Penguins know it's going down!

Pens ownership (like with Washington) is definitely going to ensure that the team does everything it can to be competitive as long as their franchise player is still skating. Like you can make a rational case for both teams to blow it up now, but realistically that's never going to happen.

I don't think they're going to be contenders, but under the context this is the type of move a team like them should be trying out since there's not much downside given the constraints on what they can do. At minimum should be entertaining to watch

 

[Mess]

I think both this is good and this is re-arranging chairs on the Titanic.

If at the beginning of the trip you knew you were going down, wouldn't you want first class all the way? Drain the account and live it to the fullest.

Well, Penguins know it's going down!

Pens have one of the weakest prospect pools and now they're dealing away their high draft picks.

This is going to go down real hard when they age out.

 

[uncleben]

Kyle Dubas gave up a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounder & prospect Mikhail Abramov to rent Ryan O'Reilly and Noel Accairi for 11 playoff games and Leafs have nothing to show for it now other than a New GM.

Bruins gave up a 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th & roster player Craig Smith to rent Dmitry Orlov and Tyler Bertuzzi for 7 playoff games and Bruins have nothing to show for it now

Rangers gave up a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 6th & roster player Sammy Blais to rent Tarasenko, Mikkola, Kane, and Motte for 7 playoff games and Rangers have nothing to show for it now

Florida - Chiarot, Giroux, Hagg last year, etc.


It's not some new experimental concept Dubas came up with. It's the price of being a top team in the league. It's a good problem to have, we were just so used to being bottom/middle teams that sell for so long lol

Obviously we want the trades to go our way and actually pan out, obviously getting knocked out again is frustrating, but same with the other 31 teams who didn't win the Cup, the other 20 teams that were in playoff contention, the other top 5 favourites that didn't make it, etc.



If we're going to lose anyway (retrospectively) I'd rather have made competitive moves and done something exciting than sit on our hands and do nothing to try and improve and then act surprised when we still fail

 

[Duffman955]

Are both Bergeron and Kreijci retired now?

 

[ULF_55]

Pens have one of the weakest prospect pools and now their dealing away their high draft picks.

View attachment 734154

This is going to go down real hard when they age out.

Yep, they'll have to be satisfied with the 3 (perhaps more) recent Cups.

And then of course they'll have Cap for whoever is UFA at the time.

 

[Mess]

Bruins gave up a 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th & roster player Craig Smith to rent Dmitry Orlov and Tyler Bertuzzi for 7 playoff games and Bruins have nothing to show for it now

Rangers gave up a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 6th & roster player Sammy Blais to rent Tarasenko, Mikkola, Kane, and Motte for 7 playoff games and Rangers have nothing to show for it now

Florida - Chiarot, Giroux, Hagg last year, etc.


It's not some new experimental concept Dubas came up with. It's the price of being a top team in the league. It's a good problem to have, we were just so used to being bottom/middle teams that sell for so long lol

Obviously we want the trades to go our way and actually pan out, obviously getting knocked out again is frustrating, but same with the other 31 teams who didn't win the Cup, the other 20 teams that were in playoff contention, the other top 5 favourites that didn't make it, etc.



If we're going to lose anyway (retrospectively) I'd rather have made competitive moves and done something exciting than sit on our hands and do nothing to try and improve and then act surprised when we still fail

These teams are all going to crash hard and their prospects pools are paying the price

The price is actually mortaging the teams future for desperate acts in the present, so there are consequences to these short-term actions,

Dubas actions now with the Pens is going to take away from their future when they age out.

 

[uncleben]

These teams are all going to crash hard and their prospects pools are paying the price

View attachment 734158

The price is actually mortaging the teams future for desperate acts in the present, so there are consequences to these short-term actions,

Dubas actions now with the Pens is going to take away from their future when they age out.

Yep. That's how it works

Fight hard while you can, spend assets to try and win now, then rebuild
Retool if you're lucky, but usually after success, there's pain. Do we want MORE success before the pain? Of course, but the answer isn't to sit back and stockpile draft picks. Not if we want to win right now

 

[Mess]

Yep, they'll have to be satisfied with the 3 (perhaps more) recent Cups.

And then of course they'll have Cap for whoever is UFA at the time.

Living and dying through high priced UFA players is a losing game (except for recent expansion teams).

Pens won Cups because they drafted Crosby, Malkin and Letang as their current core and then made hay when then they were on cheaper contracts.

When players are making top $$ in Cap world things are not going so well..

Pens the last 5 years.

Crosby, Malkin and Letang could't even win 4 playoff games in a single playoff season for the past 5 years.

PS. Crosby currently makes $8,700,000 and you couldn't even get a Willy Nylander at that price.

 

[myleafs]

I said ppg for a specific reason, Malkin almost never plays a full season but usually plays playoffs... Crosby was top 10 if you are just using point totals.

Sure, if you want to use ESP:
MacKinnon > McDavid
Crosby is top 5
Malkin is 30th

wrong
75-73 for Mcdavid.....pasternak lead with 76
Crosby was 9th last year with 66
malkin not even listed in top 50

 

[Stephen]

Yep. That's how it works

Fight hard while you can, spend assets to try and win now, then rebuild
Retool if you're lucky, but usually after success, there's pain. Do we want MORE success before the pain? Of course, but the answer isn't to sit back and stockpile draft picks. Not if we want to win right now

While trading high picks is the price of doing business while in contender-mode, I don't agree that it's an automatic, annual exercise...

Some of the longer lasting contenders in the league were able to fuel a Stage II in their contending window by hitting on some significant first round picks. Boston with Pastrnak in 2014 (and McAvoy in their mini down cycle in 2016), Washington hitting on a string of pretty useful prospects like Kuznetsov, Forsberg (wasted), Vrana, Samsonov and Burakovsky while their contending window had started, and of course Tampa, who found their franchise cornerstone goalie Vasilevskiy a few years into the Yzerplan. And of course, Carolina. The masters of asset management, though they haven't really gone on any massive run and are stuck in a kind of neutral like Toronto.

There aren't any real rules, just to illustrate that you can move all your picks for immediate gains every year but the question of mileage comes into play... you might look back and realize there's a massive gap in your pipeline from all the deadline activity.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Safe to say that with this trade Dubas has already ‘passed all the tests’ in Pittsburg?

And that’s despite all the “major challanges” he’s had to endure along the way.

What a legendary thread that was

 

[uncleben]

While trading high picks is the price of doing business while in contender-mode, I don't agree that it's an automatic, annual exercise...

Some of the longer lasting contenders in the league were able to fuel a Stage II in their contending window by hitting on some significant first round picks. Boston with Pastrnak in 2014 (and McAvoy in their mini down cycle in 2016), Washington hitting on a string of pretty useful prospects like Kuznetsov, Forsberg (wasted), Vrana, Samsonov and Burakovsky while their contending window had started, and of course Tampa, who found their franchise cornerstone goalie Vasilevskiy a few years into the Yzerplan. And of course, Carolina. The masters of asset management, though they haven't really gone on any massive run and are stuck in a kind of neutral like Toronto.

There aren't any real rules, just to illustrate that you can move all your picks for immediate gains every year but the question of mileage comes into play... you might look back and realize there's a massive gap in your pipeline from all the deadline activity.

I very much agree with you in that 1) retooling by acquiring players with term and hitting in the draft is crucial in order to extend the window, and that you need draft picks to do that and that 2) there are no real rules or specific way you need to do it

But the doom and gloom that we're left in some unique position because we have a thin prospect cupboard and not a lot of picks is silly, that we're assbackwards for making rental deals or late season acquisitions
Those trades were not "failures" because now we don't have picks, they were "failures" because the team as a whole failed to win a Cup, and even then, that doesn't mean that we were wrong to try

 

[Stephen]

I very much agree with you in that 1) retooling by acquiring players with term and hitting in the draft is crucial in order to extend the window, and that you need draft picks to do that and that 2) there are no real rules or specific way you need to do it

But the doom and gloom that we're left in some unique position because we have a thin prospect cupboard and not a lot of picks is silly, that we're assbackwards for making rental deals or late season acquisitions
Those trades were not "failures" because now we don't have picks, they were "failures" because the team as a whole failed to win a Cup, and even then, that doesn't mean that we were wrong to try

Yeah, I think we see it the same way. It's more an issue of real results on the ice than what was outgoing in the end, because if we had won a cup or went on lengthy runs it would have all been worth it.

One small nitpick I would add in criticism of the previous regime is they had a tendency to compound pro acquisition errors with the loss of draft capital.

Nick Ritchie, Petr Mrazek, Matt Murray were all bad acquisitions in the $2.5-5 million range. Mrazek and Ritchie were both disappeared in short order, but required a 2nd to be traded, and a 1st to be downgraded to a second, and the only tangible return we got on a short term run was Ilya Lyubushkin. If they had not spent their money so poorly, they could have used those picks for better roster additions. For example, a Luke Schenn would have been available for $850K for 2 years in the summer of 2021, so the entire Ritchie misadventure could have been bypassed.

In Murray's case, the cap hit was so high that it handcuffed the Leafs from signing Acciari and others in the summer time, which required in-season trades at the deadline. A more focused offsesaon would have allowed for a better team to be constructed out of the gate, and less of a draft capital premium paid out at the deadline.

What does it all mean? Results matter and we don't have them.

 

[notbias]

wrong
75-73 for Mcdavid.....pasternak lead with 76
Crosby was 9th last year with 66
malkin not even listed in top 50

with the GP it is probably

MacKinnon >> McDavid

 

[notbias]

Pens have one of the weakest prospect pools and now they're dealing away their high draft picks.

View attachment 734154

This is going to go down real hard when they age out.

It is almost like context matters when looking at these things.

Also, NHL Network is trash...

Mess what was smarter?

Take a run while you have one of the best players ever or let him retire while missing the playoffs the last few years of his career?

 

[Dekes For Days]

One small nitpick I would add in criticism of the previous regime is they had a tendency to compound pro acquisition errors with the loss of draft capital.
Nick Ritchie, Petr Mrazek, Matt Murray were all bad acquisitions in the $2.5-5 million range. Mrazek and Ritchie were both disappeared in short order, but required a 2nd to be traded, and a 1st to be downgraded to a second, and the only tangible return we got on a short term run was Ilya Lyubushkin. If they had not spent their money so poorly, they could have used those picks for better roster additions. For example, a Luke Schenn would have been available for $850K for 2 years in the summer of 2021, so the entire Ritchie misadventure could have been bypassed. In Murray's case, the cap hit was so high that it handcuffed the Leafs from signing Acciari and others in the summer time, which required in-season trades at the deadline.

If you look through 5 years of any GM, I think you're going to find "pro acquisition errors" that are a lot more costly to fix than ones that can all collectively be exchanged for a rental defenseman at the cost of a 2nd round pick and 13 draft slots. Cap wasn't a barrier to signing Schenn or Acciari. In fact, it was mentioned that they'd been targeting Acciari for a while. Players have a choice.