GDT: Around the League - Off Season Edition - let the good times roll.

[Captain Crunch]

Pretty consistent with his comparable on the Leafs (Nylander).

Based on what Hamzarocks posted, there is quite a difference.

Hey came into the league 2 years younger than Nylander. His role in his D+1 was that of a 3rd line player getting 14ish minutes a night, he made an impact for the Canes as a 18 year old which Nylander wasn't able to do on the leafs.

Svechnikov in his D+2 had as good a season as Nylander in his D+6 season with 61 in 68 and he did this without having a Matthews level linemate. He didn't play with Aho or TT. He was 3rd on the Canes in points

D+3 has 42 in 55. A bit of a down regular season but once again is a top 3 producer for the Canes. Nylander in 2017 and 2018 was not as important to the leafs despite being older.

Svechnikov was able to adjust tonthe NHL faster than Nylander, was able to impact the game for his team at a higher level with worse linemates, and was a better playoff producer than Nylander with 20 in 26 vs nylander who had 11 in his first 20

Nylander if being compared to Svechnikov should have gotten what he did on a 8 year deal not 6 year

6.96 x 8 vs 7.75 x 8 would have been fair deals for both players coming off of their ELCs

Nylander getting 2 less years makes the deal worse than Svechnikovs

 

[Stephen]

I like the fact that other Eastern Conference teams are spending their free cap space on the same same.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So Nylander not being good enough to have a full nhl rookie year earns him MORE money.

You're paid for what you show while in the NHL. A certain level of production can mean a bit more or less depending on your age, but you can't just arbitrarily remove seasons you don't like, and when we consider all of the context, including age, linemate quality, league-wide scoring levels, etc., we're left with Nylander still being a bit more impressive over his pre-signing period. Svechnikov got a higher percentage of the cap despite this, because he got an extra 2 years. The contracts are pretty consistent with each other, all things considered.

 

[deprw]

If player walks away with same pay in cash living in Toronto contract would be approximately $9,750 000. It's easier to compare before taxes prices, when there is 12% difference in taxes which makes huge difference between Toronto and Carolina.

You can't compare just cap hits, no one cares about pay before taxes, it's what you get on your bank account.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If player walks away with same pay in cash living in Toronto contract would be approximately $9,750 000. It's easier to compare before taxes prices, when there is 12% difference in taxes which makes huge difference between Toronto and Carolina.

You can't compare just cap hits, no one cares about pay before taxes, it's what you get on your bank account.

Then why are we here? Leafs having to pay up to 20% more for their players than other teams means there is literally no chance to succeed. So why are we here? Why do people still go to games?

 

[hamzarocks]

His most common linemates that season were Aho and TT...

Yeah I acknowledged I was wrong on the linemates argument. He played with Aho and TT heavily during his ELC.

Still playing at that level from D+1 to D+3 vs D+3 to D+5 is more impressive.

Svech got a fairer deal giving 8 years term which is what we should have gotten for Nylander at 7M

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yeah I acknowledged I was wrong on the linemates argument. He played with Aho and TT heavily during his ELC.

Still playing at that level from D+1 to D+3 vs D+3 to D+5 is more impressive.

Svech got a fairer deal giving 8 years term which is what we should have gotten for Nylander at 7M

Imagine we were comparing a LEAF players d+1 - d+3 to another teams players d+3 - d+5. Just imagine what the Dubas defenders would be saying about that. They'd be stressing the piont ad nauseum and make it out to be a big big BIG deal.

 

[Menzinger]

Then why are we here? Leafs having to pay up to 20% more for their players than other teams means there is literally no chance to succeed. So why are we here? Why do people still go to games?

Markets being unequal in terms of contract negotiations is always going to be a part of sports. For example nicer places to live, with more favorable tax laws (like Tampa) will pay their players less than teams like say Edmonton or Winnipeg who have terrible winters, ect.

It's why this fixation on having identically equally comparable contracts among all teams is always going to lead to frustration, beacuse it's never going to happen.

 

[Gabriel426]

Watched the CDN beating to US women game. Isn’t it just me or are some of the Canadian Women might have a better shot than some of the Leafs. Lol.
For real, they are willing to shoot and kept the game simple.

 

[Havoc]

Yeah I acknowledged I was wrong on the linemates argument. He played with Aho and TT heavily during his ELC.

Still playing at that level from D+1 to D+3 vs D+3 to D+5 is more impressive.

Svech got a fairer deal giving 8 years term which is what we should have gotten for Nylander at 7M

Very hard to compare the two. Your use of development years is pretty shallow.

Nylander impact was TT level in his rookie year. Matthews / Nylander combo became so feared they attracted opponents top defences so quick. It's the only reason they cooled down. They were too young to offset these warriors being thrown at them.

Nylander was Aho level impact at times in his rookie year. Check out his March. Put the team on his back and carried us into the playoffs. For the first two seasons Hyman/Matthews/Nylander was a top 5 line in the entire league.

Your reasoning has a marginal impact at best. Yes 1 on 1 Svech at 18-19 years old was doing more than Nylander at 18-19 years old, but 20-21 year old Svech cant touch the impact 20-21 year old Nylander had for the Leafs. Leafs were dead last in the league the season prior too. Svech was on a cup contender.

These youngsters (and Fred) are the sole reason this team has been seeing playoffs since Matthews entered the league. Pre-holdout, Nylander was up there with Marner in a very impressive list of names with respects to how others started their careers. The holdout really set him back after his fire start.

I dont see the point having a nylander versus svech contract debate. Remove Nylander and we don't even make the playoffs for 2 of these 5 years. His impact to us is worth his contract amount, so who cares what Svechs contract is.

 

[hamzarocks]

Very hard to compare the two. Your use of development years is pretty shallow.

Nylander impact was TT level in his rookie year. Matthews / Nylander combo became so feared they attracted opponents top defences so quick. It's the only reason they cooled down. They were too young to offset these warriors being thrown at them.

Nylander was Aho level impact at times in his rookie year. Check out his March. Put the team on his back and carried us into the playoffs. For the first two seasons Hyman/Matthews/Nylander was a top 5 line in the entire league.

Your reasoning has a marginal impact at best. Yes 1 on 1 Svech at 18-19 years old was doing more than Nylander at 18-19 years old, but 20-21 year old Svech cant touch the impact 20-21 year old Nylander had for the Leafs. Leafs were dead last in the league the season prior too. Svech was on a cup contender.

These youngsters (and Fred) are the sole reason this team has been seeing playoffs since Matthews entered the league. Pre-holdout, Nylander was up there with Marner in a very impressive list of names with respects to how others started their careers. The holdout really set him back after his fire start.

I dont see the point having a nylander versus svech contract debate. Remove Nylander and we don't even make the playoffs for 2 of these 5 years. His impact to us is worth his contract amount, so who cares what Svechs contract is.

Your overstating the impact Nylander had for the leafs in 2017 and 2018

Our core guys were Matthews, Andersen basically with other strong support options which Nylander was a part of (Marner, JVR, Kadri, Nylander, Rielly, Gardiner). You remove any of those group of players and we moss the playoffs in 2017, but still make it in 2018.

He wasn't as important to the leafs as Svech was for the Canes. Svech is the Canes 2nd or 3rd best forward while Nylander on his ELC wasn't that. I don't think your recalling the 2019 season correctly if you think the Canes were a contender a year after missing the playoffs and extending their playoff drought from 2009 to 2018. They made the ECF in his rookie year with him being an important depth piece and then in 2020 they were expected to be a playoff team but not a serious contender. This was their first year of contention status

Nylander wasn't an elite forward at any point of his ELC. The only true elite players we had at forward was Matthews back then (before Marner and Tavares joined that tier in 2019)

Contracts which are comparable get brought up all the time. Seeing other teams signing better, younger talent for more term sucks as it shows strong negotiation from rival GMs with our team having a prematurely shortened windows due to not getting maximum length on any of our 3 RFAs

 

[Stonehands1990]

Then why are we here? Leafs having to pay up to 20% more for their players than other teams means there is literally no chance to succeed. So why are we here? Why do people still go to games?

I love how taxes is the #1 driving force with every contract in the NHL. Market, endorsements, world class city and competitiveness apparently mean 0 to players

 

[al secord]

Watched the CDN beating to US women game. Isn’t it just me or are some of the Canadian Women might have a better shot than some of the Leafs. Lol.
For real, they are willing to shoot and kept the game simple.

It's just you.

 

[Leafs1991]

Watched the CDN beating to US women game. Isn’t it just me or are some of the Canadian Women might have a better shot than some of the Leafs. Lol.
For real, they are willing to shoot and kept the game simple.

No? They are more like AHL 4th liners, if that.

 

[fahad203]

Parise to Isles is a good depth signing
He still has the hands and can contribute

 

[themilosh]

Then why are we here? Leafs having to pay up to 20% more for their players than other teams means there is literally no chance to succeed. So why are we here? Why do people still go to games?

Ive been advocating for this for years.. the Cap should be a strict hard-cap based on NET salary. Like what they do in Europe.
Yes Canadian teams still need to pay more to cover tax differences, but we shouldnt be penalized for it.
The way it is now, we are getting penalized twice. Overpaying, and eating up cap space. Completely unfair in a so called parity system.

 

[Dreakmur]

That still doesn't make him an offensive specialist, or not a top 4 defenseman. Do you think Chabot, Josi, Rielly, Hughes, Klingberg, Theodore, etc. are not top-4 defensemen?

Usage made him an offensive specialist, and overall ice time made him a 4/5. Just look at the usage - it's black and white.

You listed four #1 and two #3 defenseman and think I shouldn't call them what they are just because they play limited PK minutes. Each was used as an offensive specialist, but some for different reasons. Josi, for example, was held off the PK for the sole purpose of keeping his minutes down at a reasonable level.

The most hilarious part is Toews spent more time shorthanded than on the PP last year. I'm not sure why it's so hard to acknowledge that the Islanders traded away a quality player.

It doesn't matter what Toews did after the trade. That's not what New York gave up. Toews ice time changed because the team he joined had vastly different needs. They already had a bunch of bad defensive puck-movers. The fact that Toews is decent at both offense and defence dropped him into a completely new role.

The depth of the team also determines a players role within it.

I never said he wasn't a quality player. I said I liked him more than Leddy, and if I was coaching he would have been my 3/4 instead of 4/5. That's a quality player.

 

[LeafChief]

Usage made him an offensive specialist, and overall ice time made him a 4/5. Just look at the usage - it's black and white.

You listed four #1 and two #3 defenseman and think I shouldn't call them what they are just because they play limited PK minutes. Each was used as an offensive specialist, but some for different reasons. Josi, for example, was held off the PK for the sole purpose of keeping his minutes down at a reasonable level.



It doesn't matter what Toews did after the trade. That's not what New York gave up. Toews ice time changed because the team he joined had vastly different needs. They already had a bunch of bad defensive puck-movers. The fact that Toews is decent at both offense and defence dropped him into a completely new role.

The depth of the team also determines a players role within it.

I never said he wasn't a quality player. I said I liked him more than Leddy, and if I was coaching he would have been my 3/4 instead of 4/5. That's a quality player.

Trades are almost always judged by how the player does AFTER the trade is made. Good effort though.

If you wish to continue bickering about Lamoriello and the Isles, there is an entire forum for that. Head on over and introduce yourself.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Usage made him an offensive specialist, and overall ice time made him a 4/5.

There is more to a player's quality than their ice time over a particular chosen sample, and playing on the PP does not make one an "offensive specialist".

You listed four #1 and two #3 defenseman and think I shouldn't call them what they are just because they play limited PK minutes.

You are the one who arbitrarily suggested that top-4 defensemen can't play a lot of PP minutes without playing a lot on the PK. Seems you were wrong.

It doesn't matter what Toews did after the trade.

Seems to matter when talking about Leaf players, but the bigger issue is your underrepresenting of the quality of player Toews was before he was traded. It's not like his season this year was some big surprise.

The fact that Toews is decent at both offense and defence

If he's good at both offense and defense, he's not an "offensive specialist".

 

[Dreakmur]

There is more to a player's quality than their ice time over a particular chosen sample, and playing on the PP does not make one an "offensive specialist".

Playing in offensive situations, which includes PP, and not playing in defensive situations, which included PK, does make a player an offensive specialist.

You are the one who arbitrarily suggested that top-4 defensemen can't play a lot of PP minutes without playing a lot on the PK. Seems you were wrong.

I didn't say an offensive specialist couldn't be a top-4 defenseman.

Seems to matter when talking about Leaf players, but the bigger issue is your underrepresenting of the quality of player Toews was before he was traded. It's not like his season this year was some big surprise.

I'm not representing anything. I'm just telling you how he was used in New York.

If he's good at both offense and defense, he's not an "offensive specialist".

He was used as an offensive specialist in New York.

 

[Dreakmur]

Trades are almost always judged by how the player does AFTER the trade is made. Good effort though.

Why would you judge a player in a situation that is vastly different than the one he would have been in on your team?

 

[LeafChief]

Why would you judge a player in a situation that is vastly different than the one he would have been in on your team?

When you pay assets for a player, your concern is with regards to how he does with your team. Not how he did prior to acquiring him.

Here is a link to the Isles forum. New York Islanders

Most here would appreciate if you stopped flooding the Leafs trade thread with your Isles fan fiction.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Playing in offensive situations, which includes PP, and not playing in defensive situations, which included PK, does make a player an offensive specialist.

PP and PK do not represent the entirety of offensive and defensive situations within a game. A good defensive player is not an offensive specialist.

I didn't say an offensive specialist couldn't be a top-4 defenseman.

I'm not representing anything.

Sure seemed otherwise:

He wasn't trusted in defensive situations, and was used essentially as an offensive specialist. That's not the sign of a top-4 defenseman.

He was used as an offensive specialist in New York.

No, he wasn't.

 

[Dreakmur]

When you pay assets for a player, your concern is with regards to how he does with your team. Not how he did prior to acquiring him.

That’s exactly what I’m saying. It doesn’t matter what the player did or does with the other team. If only matters what the player did or does for your team.

 

[Dreakmur]

PP and PK do not represent the entirety of offensive and defensive situations within a game. A good defensive player is not an offensive specialist.

A player used as an offensive specialist is being used as an offensive specialist. It’s not complicated.

Sure seemed otherwise:

Me telling you how he was used isn’t an opinion.

You’re conflating a few different issues, which is contributing to your confusion.

No, he wasn't.

He very clearly was.