Around the League 36-But Who's Counting...

[AhosDatsyukian]

Looks like Barzal just re-signed for 8 years. No word on AAV yet from what I can tell.

EDIT: $9.15M

not the worst deal from the Isles, I think he could explode with a more offensive minded system and better linemates, but he also has his flaws and doesn't come without risks.

 

[HisIceness]

Barzal is 25 so this deal takes him close to his mid-30s, 34 I guess since it's a bridge to next season. Cap will go up so if production stays in tact the deal could end up being really good for the NYI. They got their blue-line locked up too.

I still am miffed why the Islanders fired Trotz but that's a different conversation.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Canucks are rumored to want to deal the Ferland LTIRetirement so that they can start banking cap space. I wonder if Dundon is willing to allow the front office to take on $2.75M in real money (but no cap space) in order to get another draft pick.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Canucks are rumored to want to deal the Ferland LTIRetirement so that they can start banking cap space. I wonder if Dundon is willing to allow the front office to take on $2.75M in real money (but no cap space) in order to get another draft pick.

Ugh another retread?

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Ugh another retread?

Ferland is effectively retired. I was thinking about Carolina potentially getting involved with some more cap-related shenanigans, especially because teams lacking in real money (such as Arizona or other rebuilding teams) likely don't want to deal with a significant portion of the contract not being paid by insurance.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Ferland is effectively retired. I was thinking about Carolina potentially getting involved with some more cap-related shenanigans.

I know I was making a not-funny joke.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I know I was making a not-funny joke.

I thought you were for a brief moment there

 

[sabremike]

Barzal is 25 so this deal takes him close to his mid-30s, 34 I guess since it's a bridge to next season. Cap will go up so if production stays in tact the deal could end up being really good for the NYI. They got their blue-line locked up too.

I still am miffed why the Islanders fired Trotz but that's a different conversation.

From what I've heard it was to prevent Lane Lambert from leaving for another HC position (Red Wings were apparently very high on him) and Trotz was going into his final season and probably wasn't staying past that.

 

[NotOpie]

I think the Barzal deal is a low-end comp for Aho. He hasn't produced as much and has had his injury problems, but add $1 million to $1.5 million to that deal and that would be a fair Aho contract.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Canucks are rumored to want to deal the Ferland LTIRetirement so that they can start banking cap space. I wonder if Dundon is willing to allow the front office to take on $2.75M in real money (but no cap space) in order to get another draft pick.

Honestly this just screams Carolina to me. Bear for Ferland, Hoglander (phone keeps auto correcting to Highlander) and a new turtleneck for Don. Where do I sign

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Honestly this just screams Carolina to me. Bear for Ferland, Hoglander (phone keeps auto correcting to Highlander) and a new turtleneck for Don. Where do I sign

Hoglander is a pipe dream, but something like a 2023 2nd would not be at all.

 

[MinJaBen]

Hoglander is a pipe dream, but something like a 2023 2nd would not be at all.

Better not be a pipe dream if they are getting almost $3M in cap relief and a RHD.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Better not be a pipe dream if they are getting almost $3M in cap relief and a RHD.

It's not technically 3M in cap relief because that's money that is on LTIR. What's key, however, is that Vancouver can't bank cap space with LTIR. That's where I think Carolina can help Vancouver out a little bit.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

It's not technically 3M in cap relief because that's money that is on LTIR. What's key, however, is that Vancouver can't bank cap space with LTIR. That's where I think Carolina can help Vancouver out a little bit.

You’re all about helping people out lately for a low/no return

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

You’re all about helping people out lately for a low/no return

It's because we have a different definition of "low return" lol

 

[Svechhammer]

It's because we have a different definition of "low return" lol

1st round pick for Marleau's buyout

Coghlan for taking Patches off the hands of Vegas

If we are taking Ferland and giving away Bear, the return has to be something like Hoglander

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

1st round pick for Marleau's buyout

Coghlan for taking Patches off the hands of Vegas

If we are taking Ferland and giving away Bear, the return has to be something like Hoglander

The 1st for Marleau was a severe overpayment from Toronto that is laughed about today, so that's difficult to use as a comparison. Same with Teravainen for Bickell. The Pacioretty trade is a better comparison while still being somewhat different because Pacioretty wasn't on LTIR at the time.

 

[CandyCanes]

The 1st for Marleau was a severe overpayment from Toronto that is laughed about today, so that's difficult to use as a comparison. Same with Teravainen for Bickell. The Pacioretty trade is a better comparison while still being somewhat different because Pacioretty wasn't on LTIR at the time.

Still blows my mind that’s how we landed Jarvis.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

The 1st for Marleau was a severe overpayment from Toronto that is laughed about today, so that's difficult to use as a comparison. Same with Teravainen for Bickell. The Pacioretty trade is a better comparison while still being somewhat different because Pacioretty wasn't on LTIR at the time.

You’re missing the part where we get anything though. The whole point of the Pacioretty trade was that we were getting a 30 goal scorer.

If the Marleau we were acquiring were a 30 goal scorer, we wouldn’t have gotten a 1st round pick. If Bryan Bickell were a 30 goal scorer, we wouldn’t have gotten Teuvo Teravainen. The point is that we take on the cap space that is making team’s lives difficult in exchange for thing that help the roster.

Pacioretty was someone who in and of himself helped the roster so it was more like Vegas saying “we don’t have room for this guy what do you want to give us for him” and us saying “well, basically nothing” and us making it work. He was his own sweetener in exchange for us taking his cap hit.

The question is, what is $3m in cap space costing on the open market right now. While I disagree with your reasoning I think I do agree on your valuation of a 2nd round pick (a Van 1st would be too risky for them to give up this year). Hoglander might be the guy who sort of threads the needle between 2023 1st round pick value and 2023 2nd round pick value though.

 

[NotOpie]

Hoglander is a pipe dream, but something like a 2023 2nd would not be at all.

After last night's performance (and frankly his entire pre-season), Bear's value might be a 4th rounder or less, despite his right-handedness. Also, it is a pipe dream to think a Bear for Ferland deal would materialize. In essence it only provides $800,000 worth of cap relief.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

These teams have years of film on Bear. Last nights outing, in a preseason game, with a bunch of AHLers wasn’t going to change his value whatsoever (positively or negatively). My view weeks ago was a mid round pick at best. I never bought the idea of a 2nd round pick. I’ll be surprised and happy if that happened, but I don’t expect it.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

You’re missing the part where we get anything though. The whole point of the Pacioretty trade was that we were getting a 30 goal scorer.

If the Marleau we were acquiring were a 30 goal scorer, we wouldn’t have gotten a 1st round pick. If Bryan Bickell were a 30 goal scorer, we wouldn’t have gotten Teuvo Teravainen. The point is that we take on the cap space that is making team’s lives difficult in exchange for thing that help the roster.

Pacioretty was someone who in and of himself helped the roster so it was more like Vegas saying “we don’t have room for this guy what do you want to give us for him” and us saying “well, basically nothing” and us making it work. He was his own sweetener in exchange for us taking his cap hit.

The question is, what is $3m in cap space costing on the open market right now. While I disagree with your reasoning I think I do agree on your valuation of a 2nd round pick (a Van 1st would be too risky for them to give up this year). Hoglander might be the guy who sort of threads the needle between 2023 1st round pick value and 2023 2nd round pick value though.

But the thing about acquiring Ferland's contract is that it does not hurt us at all in terms of the cap, only real money which is just a concern for Dundon's pocket book. We already have LTIR players so we can't bank cap space anyways, he will just got to LTIR and doesn't impact our cap. Vancouver would do it so they don't have anyone on LTIR and can bank the cap space throughout the season. Because it doesn't hurt us we would just be buying an asset with real money. Different than the Marleau trade and Pacioretty and Bickell because all of those were impacting our cap space negatively, hence the returns.

The question isn't what $3M in cap space costs, it's what does $3M of real money that a team has to pay Ferland buy you in terms of assets. And is that price worth it for Vancouver just to bank cap space this year? If Bear were also involved it gets more complicated but I would think $3M of real money and no cap impact buys a 3rd rounder, maybe a bit more or less. Would Dundon do that? Would Vancouver? I don't know. But it's an interesting thought from @TheRillestPaulFenton

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

now the roster moves and some trading begin?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

But the thing about acquiring Ferland's contract is that it does not hurt us at all in terms of the cap, only real money which is just a concern for Dundon's pocket book. We already have LTIR players so we can't bank cap space anyways, he will just got to LTIR and doesn't impact our cap. Vancouver would do it so they don't have anyone on LTIR and can bank the cap space throughout the season. Because it doesn't hurt us we would just be buying an asset with real money. Different than the Marleau trade and Pacioretty and Bickell because all of those were impacting our cap space negatively, hence the returns.

The question isn't what $3M in cap space costs, it's what does $3M of real money that a team has to pay Ferland buy you in terms of assets. And is that price worth it for Vancouver just to bank cap space this year? If Bear were also involved it gets more complicated but I would think $3M of real money and no cap impact buys a 3rd rounder, maybe a bit more or less. Would Dundon do that? Would Vancouver? I don't know. But it's an interesting thought from @TheRillestPaulFenton

I'm confused by your post.

If only responding to the first paragraph, I would say: the return isn't really a function of how much or little it hurts us. It's a function of how much it helps out Vancouver. Whether it helps us or not is irrelevant, we didn't get a 1st from Toronto for Marleau because "it hurts us so much", we got it because of what it helped Toronto do with the space.

So I think in your first paragraph you've framed it incorrectly, but then in your second paragraph you turned it around and framed it correctly. It's about how much this actually helps Vancouver. That's what determines the value. So I guess I'm confused.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

I'm confused by your post.

If only responding to the first paragraph, I would say: the return isn't really a function of how much or little it hurts us. It's a function of how much it helps out Vancouver. Whether it helps us or not is irrelevant, we didn't get a 1st from Toronto for Marleau because "it hurts us so much", we got it because of what it helped Toronto do with the space.

So I think in your first paragraph you've framed it incorrectly, but then in your second paragraph you turned it around and framed it correctly. It's about how much this actually helps Vancouver. That's what determines the value. So I guess I'm confused.

Well, the ultimate value is determined by both sides as both sides have to agree to the deal. It's where the degree to which it helps/hurts Vancouver intersects with the degree to which it helps/hurts the trade partner and it makes sense for both sides. Both how much it hurts us and how much it helps us are completely relevant, in fact they are the only things relevant to the Canes. From the Canes' perspective, why do we care how much it helps Vancouver? Maybe if it were the Rags or something we care not to help a division rival, but for the Canucks I don't think that factors in for us. We're not going to not make a trade that helps us just because it might help them a little bit more.

Other teams' ability to make the deal can factor in but that's not as relevant in the case of Ferland because you're not acquiring a $6M cap hit, you're just acquiring a LTIR contract. It comes down to, which teams are willing to pay $3M of real money for an asset, and what would that asset need to be. Vancouver will try to send him away for the cheapest they can and it becomes a bidding war for the lowest asset that a team will be willing to spend $3M real money on and what it's worth to them. If money is no object at all for an owner of a team who already has LTIR players (like we do), then they'd gladly do it for a 5th round pick as it's a free 5th round pick and that's better than letting another team get a free 4th round pick. Money is an object though and I can't see any owner buying a 5th round pick for that much. 3rd rounder or 2nd rounder more likely. Then if no team would do it for less than a 3rd, is Vancouver willing to pay that just to bank cap space? Maybe not, and no deal can be had in this case.