Around the League - 2023/24

[henchman21]

Philly is in absolute free fall

5 losses in a row, 2 wins in their last 10 games

Time to scratch Cooter.

 

[RockLobster]

Time to scratch Cooter.

Hey...what you decide to do in your own free time is all on you. I'm not sure why you gotta bring that language here.

 

[henchman21]

Hey...what you decide to do in your own free time is all on you. I'm not sure why you gotta bring that language here.

How else am I supposed to make cooter soup?

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

Hartman is an idiot but 3 games for THAT? And they said he was verbally abusing the officials which played a role in the suspension?

These doofuses will suspend you 3 games for hurting the refs feelings but try to kill someone with a shot to the head and you might not even have a talking to. Love it.

They can't let anything remotely close to refs physical abuse trickle through or they'll be in serious trouble very quickly... Add to it the example it would set for minor hockey and this is the absolutely proper approach to take. You don't lay a finger on a ref, you don't throw anything, not even water anywhere near a ref.

 

[Avsfan1921]

They can't let anything remotely close to refs physical abuse trickle through or they'll be in serious trouble very quickly... Add to it the example it would set for minor hockey and this is the absolutely proper approach to take. You don't lay a finger on a ref, you don't throw anything, not even water anywhere near a ref.

I tend to agree that players need to be held accountable for things above the norm towards officiating and given who it is in this instance I’m not too surprised at the results, play stupid games win stupid prizes….. it there needs to be some accountability in the league towards reffing as well.

I fall in the category that I think reffing concerns are overblown. However they do screw up badly at times and whenever a coach or player, or anyone in the NHL circle, brings it up they get reprimanded. That is not fair either. There needs to be accountability on both sides, from the teams/players to the officials. And that doesn’t happen, the league does not allow criticisms or show accountability for the officiating.

 

[henchman21]

I tend to agree that players need to be held accountable for things above the norm towards officiating and given who it is in this instance I’m not too surprised at the results, play stupid games win stupid prizes….. it there needs to be some accountability in the league towards reffing as well.

I fall in the category that I think reffing concerns are overblown. However they do screw up badly at times and whenever a coach or player, or anyone in the NHL circle, brings it up they get reprimanded. That is not fair either. There needs to be accountability on both sides, from the teams/players to the officials. And that doesn’t happen, the league does not allow criticisms or show accountability for the officiating.

Just because there isn't a public flogging does not mean there isn't accountability.

As an example... refs are actually fined from time to time. Yet it is never brought to the public attention.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

I think refs generally do a hell of a job. People forget that they aren't watching the game on TV with all the best angles, zoom-ins and replays. Goalies can't see the pucks because of traffic but refs have to see everything, pucks, sticks, hands, faces, blue lines, red lines, number of players on the ice, all the times, from all angles.... Pretty crazy...

 

[Avsfan1921]

Just because there isn't a public flogging does not mean there isn't accountability.

Yeah, I don’t doubt that. But my points still stand as they don’t allow any negativity towards them when there are time it’s warranted. They shut that down immediately and often with more force than they show to actual illegal infractions players enact on one another.

Maybe you can answer this as someone who seemingly knows some inner workings within the league:

1) All this is moot to me as a fan if there are communications behind the scenes between the league and the teams. If there is meaningful action/inaction from perceived bad or missed calls, does the league let the teams know how they’ve come to the decisions they have?

2) What is the accountability being held to the officials? I realize they allot playoff games to the most well regarded but we rarely see new officials in games so they must not get demoted/promoted based on their quality of officiating, or if they do there must be a very long leash.

Again, I fall into the crowd that hates blaming refs, I’ve argued plenty that good teams create their own results. I don’t think you can ever find a post on me berating the refs. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to see integrity improvements to the game however.

Edit: I see you’ve added some context to your post as I was writing my response. Thanks for the clarification. I’d still be curious how the communication process looks between the league and teams if a team takes issue with how a game was officiated?

 

[henchman21]

Yeah, I don’t doubt that. But my points still stand as they don’t allow any negativity towards them when there are time it’s warranted. They shut that down immediately and often with more force than they show to actual illegal infractions players enact on one another.

Maybe you can answer this as someone who seemingly knows some inner workings within the league:

1) All this is moot to me as a fan if there are communications behind the scenes between the league and the teams. If there is meaningful action/inaction from perceived bad or missed calls, does the league let the teams know how they’ve come to the decisions they have?

2) What is the accountability being held to the officials? I realize they allot playoff games to the most well regarded but we rarely see new officials in games so they must not get demoted/promoted based on their quality of officiating, or if they do there must be a very long leash.

Again, I fall into the crowd that hates blaming refs, I’ve argued plenty that good teams create their own results. I don’t think you can ever find a post on me berating the refs. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to see integrity improvements to the game however.

After each game, both teams are supposed to evaluate the refs and linesman in the game. There is a standardized form that is supposed to be filled out and used. Prior to having large staffs this was mostly done by head coaches... now frequently the video coaches perform this task. There is also a league employed manager that evaluates each game and provides feedback. This all tends to get collected and delivered to the refs periodically. There is also peer review... where refs/linesman on an 'off' night will attend games and then write a more detailed evaluation of specific refs/linesman. This all falls into a pretty consistent feedback loop. The more green the ref, the more it happens. Or the worse a ref is performing, the more it happens.

Now refs that underperform consistently, there tends to be an escalating scale of repercussions. The first stage is basically a re-training. Where they have to put in so many training hours on calls, and even potentially reffing lower league games to get more experience. Then it elevates to less scheduled games... which isn't a formal suspension, but is a very common tactic. If the issues are still there, then formal suspensions will happen... and even fines if they are egregious enough. If this still happens, we've seen the NHL fire refs or have them 'retire.' There are obviously also the perks of playoff games and eventually Cup games. You don't get those without being evaluated highly.

Some of the critique is pretty strong too... there is one ref in the NHL today that is well known in the circle for being out of shape. To the point where the NHL 'suggested' to him that he work out on his days off. I'll be shocked if he is back next year.

I think people would be surprised on how much turnover there actually is each year. There are ~48 refs a year and 4-8 of them are new or have only a few games as fil-ins from AHL. Linesman tend to have less turnover, but are in the realm of 2-4 new a year. The Sutherland and McCauley's of the world are actually kinda rare, but they stick around because they are the best. As an example... prior to the season 14 of the NHL refs had less than 200 games officiated in the NHL. Coincidentally, that is the same number that has 900+.

Now saying all of that I have zero idea how St Pierre and St Laurent have stuck around... nor do I get how Charron isn't leaned on in the playoffs. It certainly isn't perfect... but when we are talking about evaluations, they are probably the most heavily evaluated part of the game.

 

[Avsfan1921]

After each game, both teams are supposed to evaluate the refs and linesman in the game. There is a standardized form that is supposed to be filled out and used. Prior to having large staffs this was mostly done by head coaches... now frequently the video coaches perform this task. There is also a league employed manager that evaluates each game and provides feedback. This all tends to get collected and delivered to the refs periodically. There is also peer review... where refs/linesman on an 'off' night will attend games and then write a more detailed evaluation of specific refs/linesman. This all falls into a pretty consistent feedback loop. The more green the ref, the more it happens. Or the worse a ref is performing, the more it happens.

Now refs that underperform consistently, there tends to be an escalating scale of repercussions. The first stage is basically a re-training. Where they have to put in so many training hours on calls, and even potentially reffing lower league games to get more experience. Then it elevates to less scheduled games... which isn't a formal suspension, but is a very common tactic. If the issues are still there, then formal suspensions will happen... and even fines if they are egregious enough. If this still happens, we've seen the NHL fire refs or have them 'retire.' There are obviously also the perks of playoff games and eventually Cup games. You don't get those without being evaluated highly.

Some of the critique is pretty strong too... there is one ref in the NHL today that is well known in the circle for being out of shape. To the point where the NHL 'suggested' to him that he work out on his days off. I'll be shocked if he is back next year.

I think people would be surprised on how much turnover there actually is each year. There are ~48 refs a year and 4-8 of them are new or have only a few games as fil-ins from AHL. Linesman tend to have less turnover, but are in the realm of 2-4 new a year. The Sutherland and McCauley's of the world are actually kinda rare, but they stick around because they are the best. As an example... prior to the season 14 of the NHL refs had less than 200 games officiated in the NHL. Coincidentally, that is the same number that has 900+.

Now saying all of that I have zero idea how St Pierre and St Laurent have stuck around... nor do I get how Charron isn't leaned on in the playoffs. It certainly isn't perfect... but when we are talking about evaluations, they are probably the most heavily evaluated part of the game.

Thank you for that very detailed information and as a fan of the sport, that is all I would expect. I don’t need to know (although knowing would be very interesting from a personal nosy perspective) what the repercussions are. I just want to know that there is a process in place to keep things fair and honest. As mentioned before, all my personal grievances don’t apply if there is a system in place, which has now been outlined to me and my argument is no longer valid. I just wish that there was an easier place for fans to know that there is a system in place such as this so that such as in this case as I have done, accidental misinformation isn’t being spread. I am genuinely appreciative that you took the time to outline these processes and clarified that things do happen behind the scenes in a meaningful way, thank you.

 

[Ceremony]

After each game, both teams are supposed to evaluate the refs and linesman in the game. There is a standardized form that is supposed to be filled out and used. Prior to having large staffs this was mostly done by head coaches... now frequently the video coaches perform this task. There is also a league employed manager that evaluates each game and provides feedback. This all tends to get collected and delivered to the refs periodically. There is also peer review... where refs/linesman on an 'off' night will attend games and then write a more detailed evaluation of specific refs/linesman. This all falls into a pretty consistent feedback loop. The more green the ref, the more it happens. Or the worse a ref is performing, the more it happens.

Now refs that underperform consistently, there tends to be an escalating scale of repercussions. The first stage is basically a re-training. Where they have to put in so many training hours on calls, and even potentially reffing lower league games to get more experience. Then it elevates to less scheduled games... which isn't a formal suspension, but is a very common tactic. If the issues are still there, then formal suspensions will happen... and even fines if they are egregious enough. If this still happens, we've seen the NHL fire refs or have them 'retire.' There are obviously also the perks of playoff games and eventually Cup games. You don't get those without being evaluated highly.

Some of the critique is pretty strong too... there is one ref in the NHL today that is well known in the circle for being out of shape. To the point where the NHL 'suggested' to him that he work out on his days off. I'll be shocked if he is back next year.

I think people would be surprised on how much turnover there actually is each year. There are ~48 refs a year and 4-8 of them are new or have only a few games as fil-ins from AHL. Linesman tend to have less turnover, but are in the realm of 2-4 new a year. The Sutherland and McCauley's of the world are actually kinda rare, but they stick around because they are the best. As an example... prior to the season 14 of the NHL refs had less than 200 games officiated in the NHL. Coincidentally, that is the same number that has 900+.

Now saying all of that I have zero idea how St Pierre and St Laurent have stuck around... nor do I get how Charron isn't leaned on in the playoffs. It certainly isn't perfect... but when we are talking about evaluations, they are probably the most heavily evaluated part of the game.

Reading this it occurs to me there's probably an easy was for 'fans' to track this sort of thing if there isn't already. Something like CapFriendly or the like which just lists which officials are getting what games. For all the complaining you see about refereeing (HFBoards and Altitude are my only source of hockey coverage/analysis) I don't know how much effort there is from the third party observers to try and provide some of that transparency they want.

I'm not making the website either btw. And I'm not responding if anyone points out such a resource already exists.

 

[henchman21]

Reading this it occurs to me there's probably an easy was for 'fans' to track this sort of thing if there isn't already. Something like CapFriendly or the like which just lists which officials are getting what games. For all the complaining you see about refereeing (HFBoards and Altitude are my only source of hockey coverage/analysis) I don't know how much effort there is from the third party observers to try and provide some of that transparency they want.

I'm not making the website either btw. And I'm not responding if anyone points out such a resource already exists.

ahem

Scouting The Refs

The latest on NHL Referees and Linesmen, plus officiating news, stats, rules, and more on hockey officials from around the world.

scoutingtherefs.com

 

[Ceremony]

ahem

Scouting The Refs

The latest on NHL Referees and Linesmen, plus officiating news, stats, rules, and more on hockey officials from around the world.

scoutingtherefs.com

Well good, Maybe now we can shut the Oilers fans up.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Just because there isn't a public flogging does not mean there isn't accountability.

As an example... refs are actually fined from time to time. Yet it is never brought to the public attention.

Why? Not, why are they fined, I can imagine that...why isn't it brought to the public attention? DOPS makes a video about every single suspension and fine. Why not be at least that transparent with the officiating?

I'm going to harp on this until the day I die. It is NOT okay to have this suspect officiating in a league that has jumped into bed this quickly with gambling.

 

[henchman21]

Why? Not, why are they fined, I can imagine that...why isn't it brought to the public attention? DOPS makes a video about every single suspension and fine. Why not be at least that transparent with the officiating?

Do you want my tin foil hat or what both parties fall back on?

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Do you want my tin foil hat or what both parties fall back on?

Honestly, both.

It was one thing to have bad officiating. But to have it when gambling is so pervasive in the sport? I mean folks are encouraged to place bets on who gets the next power play. You simply can't tell me officials don't have an outsized influence on the outcome of games. They are front and f***ing center.

 

[Foppa2118]

Why? Not, why are they fined, I can imagine that...why isn't it brought to the public attention? DOPS makes a video about every single suspension and fine. Why not be at least that transparent with the officiating?

I'm going to harp on this until the day I die. It is NOT okay to have this suspect officiating in a league that has jumped into bed this quickly with gambling.

Especially when it's basically been proven that some refs willfully call or don't call penalties in an effort to manage the game.

Even if they don't do anything shady, the optics are terrible when they're so in bed with sports betting now, and have refs frequent Las Vegas to work games.

The NHL should make more of an effort to be transparent, and do something to acknoledge mistakes that are made.

They don't have to publicly announce everything they do, but they should do something other than fine players and coaches for making negative comments about bad officiating.

 

[LOFIN]

 

[henchman21]

Honestly, both.

It was one thing to have bad officiating. But to have it when gambling is so pervasive in the sport? I mean folks are encouraged to place bets on who gets the next power play. You simply can't tell me officials don't have an outsized influence on the outcome of games. They are front and f***ing center.

The reasoned line is that it is negotiated in the CBA between the NHL and officials to not be public.

My tin foil hat is gambling. With how much the NHL (and all sports leagues) lean into gambling, the last thing they want to do is present any sort of bias impacting the games. It very quickly becomes a perception thing with refs and gambling that is hard to overcome. We've seen the scandals elsewhere, so if the NHL can just keep anything out of the public eye in this area... the better they feel.

 

[Foppa2118]

lol wtf are those three guys on the right gonna do in half a second? Looks like a football play.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

The reasoned line is that it is negotiated in the CBA between the NHL and officials to not be public.

My tin foil hat is gambling. With how much the NHL (and all sports leagues) lean into gambling, the last thing they want to do is present any sort of bias impacting the games. It very quickly becomes a perception thing with refs and gambling that is hard to overcome. We've seen the scandals elsewhere, so if the NHL can just keep anything out of the public eye in this area... the better they feel.

Problem is the cat is already out of the bag on this one. It was obvious to anyone watching before, but Tim Peel actually spoke the words out loud and got fired over it. The NHL since then has done nothing to try to repair it's image. In fact, the officiating is worse today. I would almost take Tim Peel over half the refs working the NHL. At least I knew he was out to get us. In the interest of fairness, I believe that SOB was out to get everyone.

I guess if anything is to be done about it, it will have to come from a gaming commission at some point in the future.

 

[henchman21]

We are barreling down some crazy numbers scoring wise... Matthews and his 62g (47ES) I already commented on. McDavid is likely going to hit the 100a mark becoming only the 4th player to ever do it and first since 1990 (Mario, Gretzky, and Orr). There will be 3 players with more than 130 points... hasn't happened since 92-93 when there were 6. There could be 6 50g scorers... that hasn't happened since 95-96.

 

[henchman21]

Problem is the cat is already out of the bag on this one. It was obvious to anyone watching before, but Tim Peel actually spoke the words out loud and got fired over it. The NHL since then has done nothing to try to repair it's image. In fact, the officiating is worse today. I would almost take Tim Peel over half the refs working the NHL. At least I knew he was out to get us. In the interest of fairness, I believe that SOB was out to get everyone.

I guess if anything is to be done about it, it will have to come from a gaming commission at some point in the future.

I just don't agree with that... there isn't nearly enough light on the NHL's refs compared to other leagues. The other big 4 have far more issues and visibility. The NHL takes pretty much zero heat officiating wise across the US while the NBA and NFL get daily heat. The MLB will probably move to automated balls and strikes soon. Yet we hear nothing about the NHL. Now simply being here and chatting about the NHL makes us a different group of fans. We watch more and notice more... but the general public just doesn't hear the heat or care about what is out there. That's probably a low bar, but as long as the NHL isn't front and center in the officiating realm, they are happy.

 

[Pokecheque]

Problem is the cat is already out of the bag on this one. It was obvious to anyone watching before, but Tim Peel actually spoke the words out loud and got fired over it. The NHL since then has done nothing to try to repair it's image. In fact, the officiating is worse today. I would almost take Tim Peel over half the refs working the NHL. At least I knew he was out to get us. In the interest of fairness, I believe that SOB was out to get everyone.

I guess if anything is to be done about it, it will have to come from a gaming commission at some point in the future.

No, what Tim Peel said out loud is "game management," where the refs go out of their way to balance out penalties so that they avoid the perception of bias. They're clearly scared to death of even being looked at as anything but impartial, which is why the little headgames played by guys like Peter DeBoer are always so utterly effective.

Peel was an uproariously incompetent referee, the Angel Hernandez of hockey. The game is better off without him. If anything, his social media presence in the ensuring years has proven exactly why he was so bad at his job.

 

[Chiarelli]

We are barreling down some crazy numbers scoring wise... Matthews and his 62g (47ES) I already commented on. McDavid is likely going to hit the 100a mark becoming only the 4th player to ever do it and first since 1990 (Mario, Gretzky, and Orr). There will be 3 players with more than 130 points... hasn't happened since 92-93 when there were 6. There could be 6 50g scorers... that hasn't happened since 95-96.

The best Art Ross and Hart race I can recall. Realistically 4 guys having Hart worthy seasons.

Although I don't think Matthews is in the hunt unless he hits 70 but there's a trophy for most goals.

I actually think MacK has a decent chance of winning the Hart this year if he can maintain a decent pace to end the year:

- McDavid will suffer from voter fatigue
- Kucherov will lose votes just for being Russian
- Matthews wins the Richard