GDT: Around the League 2023-2024 "Off Season??!! What off season??!!"

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Meet and greets are fine, as is coaching spending time away from facilities with players.

However, when the story keeps going that he had a player at his house and went through his phone. That's some pretty predator shit.

I don't even know today that Babcock realizes what he did was wrong, but it's definitely not right. Just having a meeting at a new bosses house or even away from team facilities is intimidating itself. Now add that he wants to go through your phone?

C-Bus management should have never given that much rope to Babcock given his past history and Babcock himself should have known better than to place himself in a position with team players before even being on the ice with them. For young players especially the world heard about the douchebag Mitch Marner incident and very likely go into any interactions with this lack of trust and preconceived belief of someone they haven't yet met but heard about through a wide range of media and possible direct contacts who played under Babcock.

Where I am left wondering is where are the player agents in all of this? These are the professional employees that all but 1% of hockey players have who are paid to advocate, negotiate, navigate, and protect their golden gooses. Seems to me that would be a first and easy call to make to discuss spider sense concerns and have some support to navigate. These are men that have had a lot of professional resources available to them.

But again, this is on Babcock and the naivety of C-Bus management.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Sigh. Moving goalposts. Again.

I also have respect for their athletic abilities and handling of themselves as public figures. However, I am not foolish enough to think that in a split second in front of a coach the stature of Babcock that I would expect an 18/19 year old to make the complex assessment of their rights in that situation, the ins and outs of their rights under the CBA, and how that pertains to the interaction they are having at the time.

This is frankly an absurd expectation to have of anybody, let alone basically a kid just trying to make a good impression.

"The stature of babcock" lol. C'mon. A slight wind would topple that statue and has.

That said I appreciated what another poster had to say on the topic and I've stood down on it.

 

[Stoneman89]

"The stature of babcock" lol. C'mon. A slight wind would topple that statue and has.

That said I appreciated what another poster had to say on the topic and I've stood down on it.

Lol. Why do you think Columbus hired him then? It was obviously because they were banking on his impressive resume and status within that resume, and the hope that he had changed his ways. He was hired by long time, respected executives in game at it's highest level. And if you're a young man coming in to the system, you have no choice but to respect that. These are the people that hold your career in their hands, so you trust them and have to do as they ask.

Now, after the fact, if you ask if that slight wind will blow his statue over, well.....duh.... of course. Easy to say now.

 

[bellagiobob]

C-Bus management should have never given that much rope to Babcock given his past history and Babcock himself should have known better than to place himself in a position with team players before even being on the ice with them. For young players especially the world heard about the douchebag Mitch Marner incident and very likely go into any interactions with this lack of trust and preconceived belief of someone they haven't yet met but heard about through a wide range of media and possible direct contacts who played under Babcock.

Where I am left wondering is where are the player agents in all of this? These are the professional employees that all but 1% of hockey players have who are paid to advocate, negotiate, navigate, and protect their golden gooses. Seems to me that would be a first and easy call to make to discuss spider sense concerns and have some support to navigate. These are men that have had a lot of professional resources available to them.

But again, this is on Babcock and the naivety of C-Bus management.

Unfortunately too many times the innocent party feels embarrassed at what happened, thinking this is the way it's supposed to work, that somehow they are in the wrong, and keep it to themselves, or just among their peers. According to Biz it wasn't the Cbus player/players involved that originally reached out to him, it was a player who got wind of it.

 

[joestevens29]

C-Bus management should have never given that much rope to Babcock given his past history and Babcock himself should have known better than to place himself in a position with team players before even being on the ice with them. For young players especially the world heard about the douchebag Mitch Marner incident and very likely go into any interactions with this lack of trust and preconceived belief of someone they haven't yet met but heard about through a wide range of media and possible direct contacts who played under Babcock.

Where I am left wondering is where are the player agents in all of this? These are the professional employees that all but 1% of hockey players have who are paid to advocate, negotiate, navigate, and protect their golden gooses. Seems to me that would be a first and easy call to make to discuss spider sense concerns and have some support to navigate. These are men that have had a lot of professional resources available to them.

But again, this is on Babcock and the naivety of C-Bus management.

I don't blame management for Babcock inviting a player over how would they even know it's happening.

As for Babcock knowing better himself. That's not even obvious to him today after being pushed out.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Lol. Why do you think Columbus hired him then? It was obviously because they were banking on his impressive resume and status within that resume, and the hope that he had changed his ways. He was hired by long time, respected executives in game at it's highest level. And if you're a young man coming in to the system, you have no choice but to respect that. These are the people that hold your career in their hands, so you trust them and have to do as they ask.

Now, after the fact, if you ask if that slight wind will blow his statue over, well.....duh.... of course. Easy to say now.

Babcock had been a controversial hire since before he was kicked out of the league and then coached in University hockey afairc lost that job as well. As another poster had mentioned Babcock was "radioactive" already at the point of CBJ hiring him.

The whole hockey world questioning the hire. Theres so much scrutiny on that right now there could be dominos falling in Columbus just for the hire.

In anycase I can see both sides. I've made some of the bolded comment too.

In anycase I stood down on some of my stance, did that several posts ago. Thats the great thing about discussion, it is possible to alter a view.

 

[joestevens29]

Unfortunately too many times the innocent party feels embarrassed at what happened, thinking this is the way it's supposed to work, that somehow they are in the wrong, and keep it to themselves, or just among their peers. According to Biz it wasn't the Cbus player/players involved that originally reached out to him, it was a player who got wind of it.

I get it too. Guys sometimes rather talk to their friends about something as I don't fully know how much trust a rookie has with an agent either.

Thank god guys are actually talking about this stuff and not bottling it up.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

listened to "Spittin chiclets" podcast today and the boys did a great job of explaining their stance on the matter and they've convinced me whole heartily that this was done for all the right reasons and has changed my mind on the matter

bravo to them and my respect for them went up (even if just a little )

 

[bellagiobob]

listened to "Spittin chiclets" podcast today and the boys did a great job of explaining their stance on the matter and they've convinced me whole heartily that this was done for all the right reasons and has changed my mind on the matter

bravo to them and my respect for them went up (even if just a little )

Thanks for having an open mind on the issue. Props to you.

 

[Drivesaitl]

C-Bus management should have never given that much rope to Babcock given his past history and Babcock himself should have known better than to place himself in a position with team players before even being on the ice with them. For young players especially the world heard about the douchebag Mitch Marner incident and very likely go into any interactions with this lack of trust and preconceived belief of someone they haven't yet met but heard about through a wide range of media and possible direct contacts who played under Babcock.

Where I am left wondering is where are the player agents in all of this? These are the professional employees that all but 1% of hockey players have who are paid to advocate, negotiate, navigate, and protect their golden gooses. Seems to me that would be a first and easy call to make to discuss spider sense concerns and have some support to navigate. These are men that have had a lot of professional resources available to them.

But again, this is on Babcock and the naivety of C-Bus management.

Counting their money apparently. Some of the player agents I've observed, thats their whole game.

Agreed in anycase that it was imperative for CBJ making this hire, to have Babcock on very short leash. That would preclude individual meetings away from facilities.

I don't want to surmise too much either on this but starting or even before the Marner incident Babcock doesn't see right. Won't allude too much but he does things that don't make any sense, that can't even be seen to be productive. The Marner incident was most troubling in that it featured actions that can't even be understood why somebody would do that. There wasn't even a plausible reason for it in a team based environment.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I think that's the biggest issue, is that he has no clue what he did wrong. He had a chance in his press release to make it right, actually in both PR's last week, and he failed miserably.

There's significant legal issue involved and zero chance that a public admission of culpability would be made. There was agreement between employer and employee for a resignation. It was Team media release that included (likely a negotiated requirement) a quote from Babcock.

 

[Drivesaitl]

listened to "Spittin chiclets" podcast today and the boys did a great job of explaining their stance on the matter and they've convinced me whole heartily that this was done for all the right reasons and has changed my mind on the matter

bravo to them and my respect for them went up (even if just a little )

I've changed my tune somewhat as well but still not enough to listen to a spittin chiclets podcast. I'll take your word for it.

Just not my cup of tea, can't stand Whitney or Biz nasty.

 

[bellagiobob]

There's significant legal issue involved and zero chance that a public admission of culpability would be made. There was agreement between employer and employee for a resignation. It was Team media release that included (likely a negotiated requirement) a quote from Babcock.

His two bosses had the balls to tell the world that they screwed up, would have been nice for him to at least recognize it as well, to at least save the smallest amount of face on the issue. But I get the legal part, but from a decent human standpoint, just admit that you screwed up.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Unfortunately too many times the innocent party feels embarrassed at what happened, thinking this is the way it's supposed to work, that somehow they are in the wrong, and keep it to themselves, or just among their peers. According to Biz it wasn't the Cbus player/players involved that originally reached out to him, it was a player who got wind of it.

We can all project ourselves into the situation. I've done it here and appreciate how you might consider the situation embarrassing for some. This was a highly controversial, public hiring with the litany of pre-existing issues well documented. It might be embarrassing but also might be fear of going into meeting knowing the issues with this guy. We don't know.

I've said previously several times I think one of the outcomes of this situation is that the NHLPA needs to look at itself and identify why this required external intervention to set off an investigation. This is now a significant win by Marty Walsh in earning his credibility to demonstrate, not simply talk about the PA having the players backs. I hope this is the positive that comes out of this complete failure.

His two bosses had the balls to tell the world that they screwed up, would have been nice for him to at least recognize it as well, to at least save the smallest amount of face on the issue. But I get the legal part, but from a decent human standpoint, just admit that you screwed up.

This is fully and completely legal cover.

 

[bellagiobob]

We can all project ourselves into the situation. I've done it here and appreciate how you might consider the situation embarrassing for some. This was a highly controversial, public hiring with the litany of pre-existing issues well documented. It might be embarrassing but also might be fear of going into meeting knowing the issues with this guy. We don't know.

I've said previously several times I think one of the outcomes of this situation is that the NHLPA needs to look at itself and identify why this required external intervention to set off an investigation. This is now a significant win by Marty Walsh in earning his credibility to demonstrate, not simply talk about the PA having the players backs. I hope this is the positive that comes out of this complete failure.


This is fully and completely legal cover.

It also needs to be looked at how Cbus tried to cover up the issue until Walsh took a second look at it. If he hadn't Babs would still be coaching and the issue buried.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I get it too. Guys sometimes rather talk to their friends about something as I don't fully know how much trust a rookie has with an agent either.

Thank god guys are actually talking about this stuff and not bottling it up.

I imagine a rookie or any player has a ton of trust in their agent. These are relationships fostered over years and adult professional advice that's entrusted to negotiate contracts, manage money, aid in development - on-ice and nuance like media training etc. Agent relationships aren't invested in lightly. There needs to be significant trust established and earned over years. Being a player's shield with hard, difficult situations is priority one.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Thank god were at a stage talking about another clubs misfortunes instead of our own. hehe

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

It also needs to be looked at how Cbus tried to cover up the issue until Walsh took a second look at it. If he hadn't Babs would still be coaching and the issue buried.

I don't know how much was known by CBus management and when. They clearly had quick player responses from Gaudreau, Jenner, and Werenski and quite likely skepticism of the source as known Babcock hating. They also placed now known misplaced trust in Babcock who either lied, deceived, or was completely oblivious to his inappropriate actions.

Did they knowingly and maliciously try to cover this up? I'm not sure. If Davidson has credibility, he said the organization welcomed the investigation when substantiated concerns came to light. The NHLPA did their job. Quickly and efficiently.

 

[Stoneman89]

listened to "Spittin chiclets" podcast today and the boys did a great job of explaining their stance on the matter and they've convinced me whole heartily that this was done for all the right reasons and has changed my mind on the matter

bravo to them and my respect for them went up (even if just a little )

I'll ditto Bob's comments and good job for you, of opening up to listening and getting details to get through some previously biased views. Have respect for someone who actually takes the time to find out more about an issue instead of blindly continuing to argue.

 

[bellagiobob]

I don't know how much was known by CBus management and when. They clearly had quick player responses from Gaudreau, Jenner, and Werenski and quite likely skepticism of the source as known Babcock hating. They also placed now known misplaced trust in Babcock who either lied, deceived, or was completely oblivious to his inappropriate actions.

Did they knowingly and maliciously try to cover this up? I'm not sure. If Davidson has credibility, he said the organization welcomed the investigation when substantiated concerns came to light. The NHLPA did their job. Quickly and efficiently.

The source actually wasn't a Babs hater before this came to light. Biz went into detail about that today on his show. To me it seems that they did as much due diligence in looking into the raised issues as they did to his hiring, which appears to be not much more than contacting enough people in their inner circle that they knew they would agree with. Not enough outside their comfort zone conversations. But who knows, just my thoughts.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The source actually wasn't a Babs hater before this came to light. Biz went into detail about that today on his show. To me it seems that they did as much due diligence in looking into the raised issues as they did to his hiring, which appears to be not much more than contacting enough people in their inner circle that they knew they would agree with. Not enough outside their comfort zone conversations. But who knows, just my thoughts.

I'm talking about the vehicle. All NHL teams would anticipate player issues coming from the NHLPA and/or player agent. As a unionized industry that is the process for dispute resolution. Teams or the league itself wouldn't necessarily perceive an ex-player podcast to be the vehicle.

Regarding the hiring process, I've shared the media conference and posted what I heard Davidson and Jarmo did in terms of vetting Babcock. I'm not sure they limited their process to talking only to an 'inner circle' but it sounded fairly far reaching including junior league which is over thirty years since he coached at that level. The mix sounded like credible guys, at least I think so, with Hitchcock and Dave King named. Hell, Hyman even reached out personally to a fellow Michigan Wolverine alumni to advocate for Babcock after he was hired. Again we can both project our opinions about the quality and due dilligence or not of an executive search process. Clearly, in hindsight, Babcock let a lot of people down who advocated a second chance to coach in the NHL.

 

[bellagiobob]

I'm talking about the vehicle. All NHL teams would anticipate player issues coming from the NHLPA and/or player agent. As a unionized industry that is the process for dispute resolution. Teams or the league itself wouldn't necessarily perceive an ex-player podcast to be the vehicle.

Regarding the hiring process, I've shared the media conference and posted what I heard Davidson and Jarmo did in terms of vetting Babcock. I'm not sure they limited their process to talking only to an 'inner circle' but it sounded fairly far reaching including junior league which is over thirty years since he coached at that level. The mix sounded like credible guys, at least I think so, with Hitchcock and Dave King named. Hell, Hyman even reached out personally to a fellow Michigan Wolverine alumni to advocate for Babcock after he was hired. Again we can both project our opinions about the quality and due dilligence or not of an executive search process. Clearly, in hindsight, Babcock let a lot of people down who advocated a second chance to coach in the NHL.

The 'vehicle' is evolving though, and this is a wake up call to all teams that issues won't just come from the old tried and true sources. Like it or not, Biz and his show is the number 1 hockey podcast, is extremely player friendly, and you'd not be doing your due diligence if you ignore sources outside of the mainstream. As for the hiring process, all the names you provided are pretty much in the context of what I mentioned, contacts that are going to give you the answer you want. All good hockey people, but people who have gotten along with Babs in the past. It doesn't take long to find a list of people that aren't fans of Babs, I find it hard to believe they talked to some of them and still hired him. Maybe it's even worse if they did talk with them and still hired him. But you're right, hindsight does provide more clarity.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The 'vehicle' is evolving though, and this is a wake up call to all teams that issues won't just come from the old tried and true sources. Like it or not, Biz and his show is the number 1 hockey podcast, is extremely player friendly, and you'd not be doing your due diligence if you ignore sources outside of the mainstream. As for the hiring process, all the names you provided are pretty much in the context of what I mentioned, contacts that are going to give you the answer you want. All good hockey people, but people who have gotten along with Babs in the past. It doesn't take long to find a list of people that aren't fans of Babs, I find it hard to believe they talked to some of them and still hired him. Maybe it's even worse if they did talk with them and still hired him. But you're right, hindsight does provide more clarity.

They proved themselves with this. For sure. My point was when it was raised through them there was widespread speculation including media, public and likely the league. There was an established bias which bled into credibility issues. The only time I recall media breaking such significant NHL labour issue matters was the mainstream newspaper writer who took down Eagleson a generation ago. I expect the NHL will pay attention now that they have established credibility. But moreso I hope the due process will work with NHLPA proving itself.

Giving a professional reference is a significant matter of credibility. It's also a legal one where people have been sued for giving false references. Both Hitchcock and King could have opted out if they didn't believe Babcock could manage a second chance. We don't know the others or even the context of the background checks, the several in-person interviews with Babcock and CBJ executives through the hiring process. We know it was a significant risky decision both because of the personal landmines of the candidate and the financial compensation involved. So I guess Jarmo and Davidson might have damned the torpedoes and just hired the guy. But again it could have been an expansive, deep dive to try to cover off all of the substantive public record issues and feel there is enough certainty to grant a radioactive elite coach a second chance. I guess it lay for we outsiders in how we perceive the credibility of Jarmo and Davidson. We'll never know.

EDIT: Lot of nuance involved when even a high quality ex-player of his like Hyman reaches out pro-actively to talk to a peer on C-Bus' team and champions the experience of being coached by Babcock.

 

[Mav3rick07]

Flames fans really think two rookie forwards are going to jump into their top six as NHL'ers.

Good luck with that.

 

[K1984]

View attachment 744367

Flames fans really think two rookie forwards are going to jump into their top six as NHL'ers.

Good luck with that.

That forward group absolutely f***ing stinks. Insanely that 3rd line might actually be the one that would cause the most headaches to play against.