GDT: Around the League 2023-2024 "Off Season??!! What off season??!!"

[Stoneman89]

I don't know an 18yr old anywhere that hands over their phone willingly, even to their parents if asked. One would have to yank it from their hands with a crowbar.

You'd have less chance getting somebody to hand over their smartphone than a wallet and basically mugging or threat there of involved.

Not sure what rock you just climbed out of, but I have 4 kids and when they're together with friends, the phones get passed around at times like a doobie. At any rate, this isn't a store clerk or some homeless guy asking to look at your phone, that you can tell them to go f*** themselves. This is your boss, and the trusted guy that holds your career in his hands.

 

[bellagiobob]

First "no" answer given from a young player = major career roadblock. This is the guy who has your job in his hands. 18-20 year old kids would have a hard time saying no, conditioned as they are from a young age to be respectful and obedient to their coaches. I absolutely cannot believe how many people do not understand this.

People who haven't played or been involved with the game at that level or that age.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I'd be very curious who pushed for Babcock.

Was it Davidson or Jarmo or did both really think it was a good idea.

Davidson was obviously involved, but was he trying to get a guy in that might outlast the GM? Did Jarmo not push back too hard as he was afraid of being fired?

I'd recommend listening to the media availability. Davidson talked about having Babcock into Columbus numerous times to meet with their group throughout the hiring process. Jarmo talked about his personal relationship with Babcock going back decades. He also talked about his hiring process which mentioned Hitchcock and Dave King by name but also that the people they spoke with was extensive covering Hockey Canada, NHL, AHL, and Junior league personnel and players. I think at some point Rick Nash gave his support. Obviously as an HR process itself and under these circumstances, Jarmo is not going to start listing names of all those that were contacted and vetted.

They came to the belief Babcock warranted a second shot. Babcock let them down. Now that said, personally, if you choose to give this guy the privilege to coach again, I would never had let him do initial player meetings by himself or frankly before getting the group together on-ice to build some credibility with them. There was zero margin for error.

 

[Drivesaitl]

First "no" answer given from a young player = major career roadblock. This is the guy who has your job in his hands. 18-20 year old kids would have a hard time saying no, conditioned as they are from a young age to be respectful and obedient to their coaches. I absolutely cannot believe how many people do not understand this.

But this isn't really the case is it. One person saying no resulted in the investigation and stepping down of the coach.

This isn't some non union shop minimum wage employee. These are pro athletes with an NHLPA backing and team reps on every team.

Nor is the NHL a 1 team league. If you cross one coach 31 other clubs exist. Sure the team could bury you, but there'd be more sense in a team trading a player discretely without saying anything about why.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Not sure what rock you just climbed out of, but I have 4 kids and when they're together with friends, the phones get passed around at times like a doobie. At any rate, this isn't a store clerk or some homeless guy asking to look at your phone, that you can tell them to go f*** themselves. This is your boss, and the trusted guy that holds your career in his hands.

So you're comparing some stoner youth friends with top drafted athletes that are dedicated top of the line?

You know these players have an agent right? you know they access at contact to lawyers? You know they have NHLPA representation and access? These are not helpless individuals that have never been exposed to any conflict before.

This isn't 1970, players have tons of rights and young players do too.

Yeah, this isn't some store clerk making minimum wage without any representation or union environment. These are worldly young men that have been top of their craft in the world many of whom have navigated a lot in life already at a young age.

I mean do I have to mention how this unfolded? yeah, the players have rights. Those rights were represented and upholded.

 

[joestevens29]

I'd recommend listening to the media availability. Davidson talked about having Babcock into Columbus numerous times to meet with their group throughout the hiring process. Jarmo talked about his personal relationship with Babcock going back decades. He also talked about his hiring process which mentioned Hitchcock and Dave King by name but also that the people they spoke with was extensive covering Hockey Canada, NHL, AHL, and Junior league personnel and players. I think at some point Rick Nash gave his support. Obviously as an HR process itself and under these circumstances, Jarmo is not going to start listing names of all those that were contacted and vetted.

They came to the belief Babcock warranted a second shot. Babcock let them down. Now that said, personally, if you choose to give this guy the privilege to coach again, I would never had let him do initial player meetings by himself or frankly before getting the group together on-ice to build some credibility with them. There was zero margin for error.

I mean even if they did, he did stuff away from the facilities too

I just don't get why he was some must have coach they couldn't miss out on.

 

[joestevens29]

Apparently away from the facilities equals Babcock's house

Talk about really trying to big dick certain player(s).

 

[FlameChampion]

I mean even if they did, he did stuff away from the facilities too

I just don't get why he was some must have coach they couldn't miss out on.

Unfortunately in the NHL (probably true for lots of sports), they dont like to give new people a chance. Its a lot of re-hiring the old. Olds boy league out there. I mean we just saw Chiarelli get a new job in the NHL.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'd recommend listening to the media availability. Davidson talked about having Babcock into Columbus numerous times to meet with their group throughout the hiring process. Jarmo talked about his personal relationship with Babcock going back decades. He also talked about his hiring process which mentioned Hitchcock and Dave King by name but also that the people they spoke with was extensive covering Hockey Canada, NHL, AHL, and Junior league personnel and players. I think at some point Rick Nash gave his support. Obviously as an HR process itself and under these circumstances, Jarmo is not going to start listing names of all those that were contacted and vetted.

They came to the belief Babcock warranted a second shot. Babcock let them down. Now that said, personally, if you choose to give this guy the privilege to coach again, I would never had let him do initial player meetings by himself or frankly before getting the group together on-ice to build some credibility with them. There was zero margin for error.

You've made a lot of good posts on the topic. Thanks for that.

Should be mentioned as well a lot of pro sports and including hockey have some old school incumbency in them from ownership through to management. So that coaches and managers tend usually to be older, not younger, albeit this all changing slowly. As with any network and business network people "you know good" are a phone call away and get primary consideration. Not just with Columbus. Guys like Tambellini, Nicholson, Chiarelli, Hitch, Pat Quinn all got jobs here largely on the basis of such network. In many of these instances full blown searches did not occurs. Ph calls were made and people tapped on back.

Its even possible CBJ did more contact diligence. For all we know they may have been aware of some more recent indications of Babcock as well.

In anycase just bringing up that familiarity hires are pretty much the rage in NHL and have been as long as I've been following the sport. I see changes in it but such changes are slow. Its the networked people get the jobs and humans are not hard wired to change their views on people they have trusted.

Thing is if you've known somebody for 30yrs you figure you know them. But humans also very complex and can do unexpected things.

 

[mcdingdong]

But this isn't really the case is it. One person saying no resulted in the investigation and stepping down of the coach.

This isn't some non union shop minimum wage employee. These are pro athletes with an NHLPA backing and team reps on every team.

Nor is the NHL a 1 team league. If you cross one coach 31 other clubs exist. Sure the team could bury you, but there'd be more sense in a team trading a player discretely without saying anything about why.

Bolded: you clearly didn't read much of the material that has been released in the past couple of days. It is exactly the case. The player(s) were unable/unwilling to say no and that's why this all blew up. The aftermath of the player(s), again, after not wanting to risk their careers by saying no, and reaching out to friends after the fact, was the nail in the coffin for Babcock. Well, that and his laundry list of past inappropriate interactions primarily involving marginal and/or young players that had no power to refuse. I mean, the Leafs had a designated dude warning young players prior to callups to clear their camera rolls for this reason.

Consider that the players involved also reached out to friends instead of their precious 'association'. Says something about the level of confidence players have in using the proper channels, which is unsurprising given the tendency of the league and NHLPA to sweep things under the rug.

Kyle Beach was a pro athlete with player association backing.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Unfortunately in the NHL (probably true for lots of sports), they dont like to give new people a chance. Its a lot of re-hiring the old. Olds boy league out there. I mean we just saw Chiarelli get a new job in the NHL.

Yeah. see the post I just made on that.

As for the meetings away from facilities I can't speak for others but I stopped having liaison with people away from work a longtime ago. Maybe the few people you really think you can trust but as a manager I certainly would not have a subordinate in my home, alone, for any reason.

One would think in NHL annals that after all the sexual abuse cases as well that no astute person would have anything to do with private contacts while in a position of authority. So really poor judgement if Babcock had any meetings outside the facility. I know Friedman has suggested that but not sure all the details and we never will ahve them.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I mean even if they did, he did stuff away from the facilities too

I just don't get why he was some must have coach they couldn't miss out on.

We've heard of coaches flying to meet with star players. Gaudreau alluded to Babcock talked about flying out to Jersey for a sit down meet and greet. I mean I get that it sounds sinister and everything but it isn't really that much of a stretch given some of the industry practices. Incredibly poor judgement on management's part and on Babcock's to run so loosy goosy with all of the public reaction when they hired the guy.

As for 'the why', they clearly valued the results on Babcock's resume over the high risk personality failures of his past employment. Looking for competitive advantage in a small, secondary market they opted on a guy that's won championships basically at all levels he's coached.

 

[K1984]

I don't know an 18yr old anywhere that hands over their phone willingly, even to their parents if asked. One would have to yank it from their hands with a crowbar.

You'd have less chance getting somebody to hand over their smartphone than a wallet and basically mugging or threat there of involved.

They might think different if their parents were in direct control of the future of a multi million dollar pro hockey career.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Bolded: you clearly didn't read much of the material that has been released in the past couple of days. It is exactly the case. The player(s) were unable/unwilling to say no and that's why this all blew up. The aftermath of the player(s), again, after not wanting to risk their careers by saying no, and reaching out to friends after the fact, was the nail in the coffin for Babcock. Well, that and his laundry list of past inappropriate interactions primarily involving marginal and/or young players that had no power to refuse. I mean, the Leafs had a designated dude warning young players prior to callups to clear their camera rolls for this reason.

Consider that the players involved also reached out to friends instead of their precious 'association'. Says something about the level of confidence players have in using the proper channels, which is unsurprising given the tendency of the league and NHLPA to sweep things under the rug.

Kyle Beach was a pro athlete with player association backing.

With all due respect the Kyle Beach scenario cemented why players are not to have meetings with superiors privately outside of the place of employment. Players are aware of this, there is protocol around it, and protocol that gets followed.

My counter is that players are taught this from Junior hockey on now. The receive information on how to report any impropriety, they have information on the many coaches that unfortunately have sexually abused their players.

Its not that I haven't read a lot on this its just that I caution taking any tertiary information on this. What happens often in cases like this is a couple sources may sensationalize, and then others copycat the information. So that I've been keen on stating what the NHL directly and NHLPa state on this. The other source being Friedman (who I also do not trust completely) but Friedman being more reliable than a lot of other sources reporting on this.

But as with many things because I'm diligent and hyper aware of boundaries and issues I could well be projecting that on players. Not everybody is as forthright as myself when it comes to defending rights.

In anycase solid pts made. lots to digest in this and I respect your opinion. I do thank you for expanding on your thoughts.

I wasn't aware of the Leafs bolded. never heard about that one.

I'll cede this argument to you. Its rare that opinions get changed online but you've made a strong argument. Well done.

 

[joestevens29]

Unfortunately in the NHL (probably true for lots of sports), they dont like to give new people a chance. Its a lot of re-hiring the old. Olds boy league out there. I mean we just saw Chiarelli get a new job in the NHL.

Very true. But at least Chia isn't know as someone that tries to mind f*** people.

They might think different if their parents were in direct control of the future of a multi million dollar pro hockey career.

In all fairness I don't know that parents being involved necessarily would solve everything here. The guy is a bully and knows who to target. Sure it sounds like young players, but who's to say that it wasn't going to happen to a journeyman that's 35 and just desperate to keep their career going?

How old was Franzen a guy named the mule when Babcock was mind f***ing him?

 

[Stoneman89]

So you're comparing some stoner youth friends with top drafted athletes that are dedicated top of the line?

You know these players have an agent right? you know they access at contact to lawyers? You know they have NHLPA representation and access? These are not helpless individuals that have never been exposed to any conflict before.

This isn't 1970, players have tons of rights and young players do too.

Yeah, this isn't some store clerk making minimum wage without any representation or union environment. These are worldly young men that have been top of their craft in the world many of whom have navigated a lot in life already at a young age.

I mean do I have to mention how this unfolded? yeah, the players have rights. Those rights were represented and upholded.

And these same young men have been conditioned all their lives to trust their coaches.

 

[joestevens29]

We've heard of coaches flying to meet with star players. Gaudreau alluded to Babcock talked about flying out to Jersey for a sit down meet and greet. I mean I get that it sounds sinister and everything but it isn't really that much of a stretch given some of the industry practices. Incredibly poor judgement on management's part and on Babcock's to run so loosy goosy with all of the public reaction when they hired the guy.

As for 'the why', they clearly valued the results on Babcock's resume over the high risk personality failures of his past employment. Looking for competitive advantage in a small, secondary market they opted on a guy that's won championships basically at all levels he's coached.

Meet and greets are fine, as is coaching spending time away from facilities with players.

However, when the story keeps going that he had a player at his house and went through his phone. That's some pretty predator shit.

I don't even know today that Babcock realizes what he did was wrong, but it's definitely not right. Just having a meeting at a new bosses house or even away from team facilities is intimidating itself. Now add that he wants to go through your phone?

 

[K1984]

The description of young NHL prospects as "worldly young men" sure is interesting.

I know of one younger player that misspelled "all the best" on an autograph recently. But sure - assume they would know the ins and outs of filing a union grievance and the risks involved (while in the heat of the moment) for no reason other than they play hockey at a high level.

 

[bellagiobob]

I rarely listen to Spitten Chiclets, but the part today about Babcock and what happened from Biz's POV is worth the listen.

 

[mcdingdong]

With all due respect the Kyle Beach scenario cemented why players are not to have meetings with superiors privately outside of the place of employment. Players are aware of this, there is protocol around it, and protocol that gets followed.

My counter is that players are taught this from Junior hockey on now. The receive information on how to report any impropriety, they have information on the many coaches that unfortunately have sexually abused their players.

But as with many things because I'm diligent and hyper aware of boundaries and issues I could well be projecting that on players. Not everybody is as forthright as myself when it comes to defending rights.

In anycase solid pts made. lots to digest in this and I respect your opinion. I do thank you for expanding on your thoughts.

I wasn't aware of the bolded. never heard about that one.

I'll cede this argument to you. Its rare that opinions get changed online but you've made a strong argument. Well done.

For what it's worth, I do tend to think and conduct myself in a defensive manner like yourself for my own professional interactions. However, I can see how a younger player may jump at the chance for one on one time with their coach/management and be blindsided by requests like these.

 

[joestevens29]

The description of young NHL prospects as "worldly young men" sure is interesting.

I know of one younger player that misspelled "all the best" on an autograph recently. But sure - assume they would know the ins and outs of filing a union grievance and the risks involved (while in the heat of the moment) for no reason other than they play hockey at a high level.

Was the guys name "Al"?

Maybe it wasn't a mistake

 

[bellagiobob]

Meet and greets are fine, as is coaching spending time away from facilities with players.

However, when the story keeps going that he had a player at his house and went through his phone. That's some pretty predator shit.

I don't even know today that Babcock realizes what he did was wrong, but it's definitely not right. Just having a meeting at a new bosses house or even away from team facilities is intimidating itself. Now add that he wants to go through your phone?

I think that's the biggest issue, is that he has no clue what he did wrong. He had a chance in his press release to make it right, actually in both PR's last week, and he failed miserably.

 

[Drivesaitl]

And these same young men have been conditioned all their lives to trust their coaches. Try to follow.

Have they? In hockey? Sorry but one would have to have lived their entire lives in a cave not to have known about the sordid hockey past in this country. The century of abuse of players at the very hands of coaches.

In 2023 no player should be meeting anywhere outside the work environment with a coach alone. Hockey Canada has developed strict protocols on this, teams have had to develop protocols on this, parents have safeguarded their kids with the information they need to know to protect themselves.

if this was 1970, and less known, I could agree with you. But trusting coaches? Unfortunately theres no absolute trust in that, and that birdy flew a long time ago.

Not just in hockey either. Its well known that sexual predators can gravitate to coaching of youth athletes and tragically countless examples.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The description of young NHL prospects as "worldly young men" sure is interesting.

I know of one younger player that misspelled "all the best" on an autograph recently. But sure - assume they would know the ins and outs of filing a union grievance and the risks involved (while in the heat of the moment) for no reason other than they play hockey at a high level.

This is odd because a week ago you accused me of underplaying youth. Reflect on that a moment.

These are youth at the top of their craft. I say worldly because many have billetted out of the home for years, been at rinks since age 5, been exposed to a lot of things. Every kid has seen inappropriate parents, some inappropriate coaches, By Bantam and Junior these players have been screamed at by parents, seen parent fights over hockey. Go to some of the rinks, I'm sure you have. Yeah these kids see a lot, a ton, by the time they're at an NHL camp.

In anycase I have the utmost respect in these young men and in their abilities and strengths.

 

[K1984]

This is odd because a week ago you accused me of underplaying youth. Reflect on that a moment.

These are youth at the top of their craft. I say worldly because many have billetted out of the home for years, been at rinks since age 5, been exposed to a lot of things. Every kid has seen inappropriate parents, some inappropriate coaches, By Bantam and Junior these players have been screamed at by parents, seen parent fights over hockey. Go to some of the rinks, I'm sure you have. Yeah these kids see a lot, a ton, by the time they're at an NHL camp.

In anycase I have the utmost respect in these young men and in their abilities and strengths.

Sigh. Moving goalposts. Again.

I also have respect for their athletic abilities and handling of themselves as public figures. However, I am not foolish enough to think that in a split second in front of a coach the stature of Babcock that I would expect an 18/19 year old to make the complex assessment of their rights in that situation, the ins and outs of their rights under the CBA, and how that pertains to the interaction they are having at the time.

This is frankly an absurd expectation to have of anybody, let alone basically a kid just trying to make a good impression.