Around the League - 2022 Off Season Edition

[Trapper]

Main boards voting Dorion a better GM than Dubas....I'm not on the Dubas fan club mailing list but man this place is ccancerous. Dorion has been a brutal GM for years and now because he landed DeBrincat (high pick and only 1 year left on deal for the small, non-playdriving 10m winger...) and Giroux (over pay) he's better than a guy who's team has been near the top of the league every year?

Right now Dorian is a luckier GM than Dubas.
Don’t forget, Dorian was going to trade the 7th and Murray to Buffalo. Murray said no and the 7th became DeBrincat.

Dubas then traded for Murray in the hopes he can regain his past form. If it works, is Dubas brilliant? No, he’s damn lucky. If it doesn’t work, he’s pooched.

 

[kb]

I am not sure, but I still don't see the big wins this offseason. DeBrincat is a good get, but he's also going to need a 10m contract next year, and that's a lot for a small winger who doesn't drive play (unlike Gaudreau) or defend. I think there is some real risk in committing Marner money do a player like that.

Then with Giroux...I haven't been all that impressed with his level of play. He used to be a good skater, but now he's like Tavares out there. Maybe with more talent around him, he will be able to sit back and quarterback a line, but 6.5x3 is no discount for the old man.

Basically, they are counting on Stutzle becoming a #1C if they want to take a step forward. I guess the best thing you can say about Dorion is he didn't miss on any of his high picks, it looks like.

Dorion:

- Pays a 3rd and 7th with 25% retention to give away a player, with the only reason being said player was owed $15 million in real money over 2 seasons.
- Trades away a 24 year old cost controlled goalie for a 35 year old pending UFA making nearly as much as said player given away.
- Is spending nearly $8 million on G (Talbot/Forsberg) after giving up all those assets (and retention), doesn't improve goaltending.......hailed as a genius.

Dubas:

- Gets a 3rd + 7th plus 25% retention for said goalie who is 28 with 2 cup rings, had a .915 going into his final start where he got hurt and gave up 8.
- signs former 1st round pick/pedigreed G Ilya Samsonov.
- Is paying $6.7 million for the combo, and it only cost cap space, and the Leafs got 2 draft picks with it.......worst GM in the league.


Sounds about main board logical.

 

[ACC1224]

I am not sure, but I still don't see the big wins this offseason. DeBrincat is a good get, but he's also going to need a 10m contract next year, and that's a lot for a small winger who doesn't drive play (unlike Gaudreau) or defend. I think there is some real risk in committing Marner money do a player like that.

Then with Giroux...I haven't been all that impressed with his level of play. He used to be a good skater, but now he's like Tavares out there. Maybe with more talent around him, he will be able to sit back and quarterback a line, but 6.5x3 is no discount for the old man.

Basically, they are counting on Stutzle becoming a #1C if they want to take a step forward. I guess the best thing you can say about Dorion is he didn't miss on any of his high picks, it looks like.

Good points and fair enough.
Have to give him credit though for how easily he was able to get Dubas to take Murray. Two GM's with no leverage and he came out on top.

 

[ULF_55]

Hockey Canada reopening investigation into alleged 2018 sexual assault | TSN

Hockey Canada says it is reopening an investigation into the alleged sexual assault of a woman by some members of Canada’s 2018 World Juniors team following an event the organization held in June 2018.

www.tsn.ca

So is this the team?
Some big names there.

Rosters

Rosters for the 2018 IIHF World Junior Championship in Buffalo, N.Y. at the Key Bank Center and HarborCenter. Get player details for Team Canada and other competing teams. Find names, heights, weights, birthdates, draft status, hometown and club teams, as well as player bios for all Canadian...

www.hockeycanada.ca

 

[kellmuff96]

Dorion has had a very good offseason and suggesting otherwise is just hating. Has nothing to do with Dubas, who has built a very good team in his own right.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think the fact that Dorion can be compare to Dubas on the main board just shows Dubas is an okay GM at best and not in the league with Yzerman and Sakic.

 

[kb]

I think the fact that Dorion can be compare to Dubas on the main board just shows Dubas is an okay GM at best and not in the league with Yzerman and Sakic.

Which is strange, considering that Yzerman made some rather overpriced and bizarre moves, as did Sakic. Georgiev as a Kuemper replacement seems like more of a gamble than what the Leafs did.

So far around UFA time:

Incoming:

Murray (25% retention),
3rd round pick,
7th round pick,
Samsonov,
Aube-Kubel,
Gaudette,
Malgin.

Outgoing:

$8.9 million cap space.

I dunno, but that doesn't look like firing worthy to me.

 

[Gabriel426]

Which is strange, considering that Yzerman made some rather overpriced and bizarre moves, as did Sakic. Georgiev as a Kuemper replacement seems like more of a gamble than what the Leafs did.

So far around UFA time:

Incoming:

Murray (25% retention),
3rd round pick,
7th round pick,
Samsonov,
Aube-Kubel,
Gaudette,
Malgin.

Outgoing:

$8.9 million cap space.

I dunno, but that doesn't look like firing worthy to me.

It comes down to trust in the GM, which is a result of past results(like the last 2-3yrs).

I am not going into those depth signings by Dubas bc they are depth signings, all GMs in the league do them every year.
The Murray trade is bad bc Dubas could have gotten more in that trade based on the offers to Sabres where Murray nixed.

As of today, Dubas’s Leafs failed to advance in the playoffs and that’s his job and his goal when he replaced Lou as GM. The Leafs is in the same position when Lou left as GM of the team in terms of results, which is being a playoffs team. Otherwise what’s the point of replacing Lou?

 

[kb]

It comes down to trust in the GM, which is a result of past results(like the last 2-3yrs).

I am not going into those depth signings by Dubas bc they are depth signings, all GMs in the league do them every year.
The Murray trade is bad bc Dubas could have gotten more in that trade based on the offers to Sabres where Murray nixed.

As of today, Dubas’s Leafs failed to advance in the playoffs and that’s his job and his goal when he replaced Lou as GM. The Leafs is in the same position when Lou left as GM of the team in terms of results, which is being a playoffs team. Otherwise what’s the point of replacing Lou?

Part of replacing Lou was correcting his blunders first. Took a year, but they did.

And I didn't like the Murray deal either - because I think there was more to squeeze out - but not liking a deal does not mean it's a bad deal.

When a team finishes 4th overall and gets 115 points with the 28th best goaltending post New Years (due to injuries and poor performance), they really were in a position to win. If they don't win, that's on the players - and they know that (and have said that). Folding in Game 7's is not on the GM because the players made it to Game 7.

 

[Gabriel426]

Part of replacing Lou was correcting his blunders first. Took a year, but they did.

And I didn't like the Murray deal either - because I think there was more to squeeze out - but not liking a deal does not mean it's a bad deal.

When a team finishes 4th overall and gets 115 points with the 28th best goaltending post New Years (due to injuries and poor performance), they really were in a position to win. If they don't win, that's on the players - and they know that (and have said that). Folding in Game 7's is not on the GM because the players made it to Game 7.

This is a result oriented League.
As of today, Dubas’s Leafs is getting the same results as Lou’s Leafs.
Murray is a bad deal bc 1. Dubas should have gotten more. 2. Murray should be better than he had shown but he could also be Mrazek 2.0 with a higher cap hit. It is a risk trading for him and the 3rd and 7th ain’t enough.
The players are assembled by Dubas unless you think Dubas would not have drafted AM with the No. 1 overall. And beside Reilly(last season), all the contracts were signed by Dubas. If the players could not do it, Dubas needs to be accountable for that.
If the current Leafs is actually another team like the Rangers, and went through the same thing like 6 yrs without advancing past the the first round, would your comment be the same about their GM?

 

[kb]

This is a result oriented League.
As of today, Dubas’s Leafs is getting the same results as Lou’s Leafs.
The players are assembled by Dubas unless you think Dubas would not have drafted AM with the No. 1 overall. And beside Reilly(last season), all the contracts were signed by Dubas. If the players could not do it, Dubas needs to be accountable for that.
If the current Leafs is actually another team like the Rangers, and went through the same thing like 6 yrs without advancing past the the first round, would your comment be the same about their GM?

Well, if you are only looking at results, then 1st round losses are no different than losing in overtime in Game 7 of the finals because the outcome is still the same. It doesn't matter when you lose, you still lose. People are jumping through hoops to prove that someone "lost better" than the Leafs. No such thing as losing better, or calling another team that also lost 'better" if this is a results oriented business.


Again, when a team finishes 4th overall and gets 115 points with the 28th best goaltending post New Years (due to injuries and poor performance), they really were in a position to win. If they don't win, that's on the players because they are the only ones who affect the on-ice outcome - except for the coach. Folding in Game 7's is not on the GM because the players made it to Game 7.

 

[Gabriel426]

Well, if you are only looking at results, then 1st round losses are no different than losing in overtime in Game 7 of the finals because the outcome is still the same. It doesn't matter when you lose, you still lose. People are jumping through hoops to prove that someone "lost better" than the Leafs. No such thing as losing better, or calling another team that also lost 'better" if this is a results oriented business.


Again, when a team finishes 4th overall and gets 115 points with the 28th best goaltending post New Years (due to injuries and poor performance), they really were in a position to win. If they don't win, that's on the players because they are the only ones who affect the on-ice outcome - except for the coach. Folding in Game 7's is not on the GM because the players made it to Game 7.

Losing in the first round is different than losing in the Cup finals. Bc it shows one team is close to winning while the other team is just a playoff team.
Does it matter if Leafs lost 6 yrs in a row in the 2nd round than 1st round, not really. But there is certainly a different between losing 6 yrs in a row in the first round than losing 6 Cups Final in a row. If you are going to pretend there is no diff in that. There is no point of even discussing.

Like I said, if the GM assembled the team and the team could only get the job done in the regular season and not the playoffs. The GM needs to take accountability bc that’s the team the GM built. If the players can’t get it done, the GM needs to be accountable for getting players who can’t get the job done. Just as players are being accountable for not playing to their level in the playoffs.

 

[kellmuff96]

why should Dubas have gotten more in the Murray deal? Didnt really have leverage. It can be argued the Leafs needed a goalie more than Ottawa needed to move Murray

 

[ToneDog]

why should Dubas have gotten more in the Murray deal? Didnt really have leverage. It can be argued the Leafs needed a goalie more than Ottawa needed to move Murray

After Murray refused to waive to Buffalo, the Leafs were the only takers. Dorion was desperate to move Murray's AAV so he could sign Giroux. Leafs had all the leverage and were a day away from UFA. Dubas had Dorion over a barrel and blinked when Dorion told him to take it or leave it.

 

[Buds17]

why should Dubas have gotten more in the Murray deal? Didnt really have leverage. It can be argued the Leafs needed a goalie more than Ottawa needed to move Murray

I think Murray had the most leverage of all (NTC used to nix the Buffalo trade). I think Dubas was set on acquiring him (familiarity) and Ottawa determined to move him (the willingness to retain and trade him within the division).

 

[Fogelhund]

After Murray refused to waive to Buffalo, the Leafs were the only takers. Dorion was desperate to move Murray's AAV so he could sign Giroux. Leafs had all the leverage and were a day away from UFA. Dubas had Dorion over a barrel and blinked when Dorion told him to take it or leave it.

Dorion still has $20 million in cap space. He didn't need to move Murray to sign Giroux.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

 

[ToneDog]

Dorion still has $20 million in cap space. He didn't need to move Murray to sign Giroux.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Wow that is huge but the question is how much have they budgeted for the season ? I heard it from Bunkis this morning and that is all I can think of why he said it. Did they spend to the cap last year ??

 

[Fogelhund]

Wow that is huge but the question is how much have they budgeted for the season ? I heard it from Bunkis this morning and that is all I can think of why he said it. Did they spend to the cap last year ??

I can't recall if they spent to the cap last year, and funny enough, all that data disappears from the web once the season is over.

 

[Apotheosis]

Looks like the Atlantic is going to be a lot more competitive next year all things considered. I expect a little regression from the big three given Tampa losing a few players and Florida not having much draft capital left. Same with the Leafs. Only upside is if guys like Knies and Robertson come in and take the league by storm early on. Detroit is looking to improve and Ottawa's top 6 is massively improved and they should be adding Sanderson to their top 4 to start the season as well.

 

[budzz]

Looks like the Atlantic is going to be a lot more competitive next year all things considered. I expect a little regression from the big three given Tampa losing a few players and Florida not having much draft capital left. Same with the Leafs. Only upside is if guys like Knies and Robertson come in and take the league by storm early on. Detroit is looking to improve and Ottawa's top 6 is massively improved and they should be adding Sanderson to their top 4 to start the season as well.

I'd take it further and say the conference will be alot tougher as well. Ottawa definitely improved, likely Detroit too. Not sure about Buffale but they should be better (of COURSE a long way to go rosters aren't final yet alot can change). habs won`t suck as much.

As for the conference Columbus added Mr Hockey, Carolina added Burns and MaxPac, Islanders should be better... overall alot of teams got better and points will be harder to get.

 

[Leafs1991]

It comes down to trust in the GM, which is a result of past results(like the last 2-3yrs).

I am not going into those depth signings by Dubas bc they are depth signings, all GMs in the league do them every year.
The Murray trade is bad bc Dubas could have gotten more in that trade based on the offers to Sabres where Murray nixed.

As of today, Dubas’s Leafs failed to advance in the playoffs and that’s his job and his goal when he replaced Lou as GM. The Leafs is in the same position when Lou left as GM of the team in terms of results, which is being a playoffs team. Otherwise what’s the point of replacing Lou?

How do you know they could have gotten more? You do remember Buffalo was giving Ottawa the 16th overall pick, right? Which means Toronto would have had to give up something if they wanted the 7th overall...

 

[Gabriel426]

How do you know they could have gotten more? You do remember Buffalo was giving Ottawa the 16th overall pick, right? Which means Toronto would have had to give up something if they wanted the 7th overall...

The drop off from 7th OA to 16OA is more than 3rd rounder and a 7th rounder. For example, Leafs traded down from 25th OA to 29th OA in the 2015 draft for an extra 2nd rounder. Thats 4 spots in the first round.

Also, there is NO suitor for Murray. Sens needed to offload him more than Dubas wanting to trade for him. Dubas misread the situation and gave in.

Now is a 2nd rounder a huge different from a 3rd rounder. It is a little bit but not huge. However, this is a trend that Dubas been doing, either giving just a bit more or taking just a bit less in all his dealings. Dubas needs to understand that who is in the driving seat in the negotiation, which is a concept that Dubas had yet to learn. The consequences of that is Leafs end up suffering from it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The drop off from 7th OA to 16OA is more than 3rd rounder and a 7th rounder.

I think people have to realize that there is no set price for trade ups and downs. It's dependent on how strong the draft is, where the draft slot movement is taking place, whether the teams involved believe it will affect the tier of prospect that will be received, and the draft picks that the involved teams hold.

For example...

Draft A has tier 1 prospects at 1-5, tier 2 prospects at 6-20.
Draft B has tier 1 prospects at 1-10, tier 2 prospects at 11-20.

It is going to cost more to move from 16 to 7 in draft B than it would be to move from 16 to 7 in draft A, because you're moving into a different tier of prospect. In the same vein, it could cost more in draft B to move from 21 to 20 than it would to move from 20 to 15.

This 16 to 7 move was in a weak draft with no significant tier separation between those two draft slots, so I'm not sure an additional high 3rd round pick in a strong draft is as far off as people like to think. Ottawa apparently had another option to turn to at 25% retention as well, so it's really looking like it was a case of that being the deal to take or leave.

 

[Leafs1991]

The drop off from 7th OA to 16OA is more than 3rd rounder and a 7th rounder. For example, Leafs traded down from 25th OA to 29th OA in the 2015 draft for an extra 2nd rounder. Thats 4 spots in the first round.

Also, there is NO suitor for Murray. Sens needed to offload him more than Dubas wanting to trade for him. Dubas misread the situation and gave in.

Now is a 2nd rounder a huge different from a 3rd rounder. It is a little bit but not huge. However, this is a trend that Dubas been doing, either giving just a bit more or taking just a bit less in all his dealings. Dubas needs to understand that who is in the driving seat in the negotiation, which is a concept that Dubas had yet to learn. The consequences of that is Leafs end up suffering from it.

Yeah, the fact that Buffalo had more to offer is why they got more in return had the trade been completed. Dbuas gave away future considerations for a 3rd and a 7th. Not that bad to me.

 

[kb]

Yeah, the fact that Buffalo had more to offer is why they got more in return had the trade been completed. Dbuas gave away future considerations for a 3rd and a 7th. Not that bad to me.

Yup. Although I wish we could have had the Buffalo deal, nothing matched up. So they had to figure out the value differently.