Around the League 2022-23 season

[AbsentMojo]

Clearly you were singling me out here....lmao

haha you've shocked us all : ) jk jk

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

haha you've shocked us all : ) jk jk

LOL I know everyone is like....WTF.....what happened....and then....everyone who blocked me is confused by their confusion, Butterfly Effect here is real.....

 

[KingsFan7824]

Bingo. "Stick to sports" isn't new, and it's typically not proven to be viewed favorably by history either (e.g. Jackie Robinson, Herb Carnegie, Willie O'Ree, Mohammed Ali, and so on).

But Provorov didn't stop anyone from doing anything they wanted to do. If he does, then there's an issue, but he didn't. Didn't even say anything. Didn't say the NHL shouldn't do it. Didn't say the Flyers shouldn't do it. Didn't say the other players shouldn't do it. LeBron James did more going after Daryl Morey for daring to question China. But I guess Provorov doesn't have to say anything, as his lack of specific action betrays his thoughts. But then we get into thought crime territory, because again, he didn't stop anyone from doing anything. He individually chose to not wear a jersey that was still worn by whoever wanted to wear it.

 

[SaltyElkHunter]

I feel like everyone is listening and making points without personal attacks this is a healthy discourse

 

[bland]

But Provorov didn't stop anyone from doing anything they wanted to do. If he does, then there's an issue, but he didn't. Didn't even say anything. Didn't say the NHL shouldn't do it. Didn't say the Flyers shouldn't do it. Didn't say the other players shouldn't do it. LeBron James did more going after Daryl Morey for daring to question China. But I guess Provorov doesn't have to say anything, as his lack of specific action betrays his thoughts. But then we get into thought crime territory, because again, he didn't stop anyone from doing anything. He individually chose to not wear a jersey that was still worn by whoever wanted to wear it.

The issue is that the decision not to wear the jersey is for the same reasons that others are in fact actively trying to remove basic freedoms guaranteed by the constitution while making sociological changes to oppress the group the jersey was designed to support AND negate the protections being sought.

Its a curious decision because that battle is actively being fought on so many fronts at the minute.

If a guy doesn't want to wear a jersey, fine, just understand that it IS a statement that either is actively an endorsement of those politics or at the very least a personal choice to stand on one side of a line that is being hotly contested at the moment.

 

[YP44]

I feel like everyone is listening and making points without personal attacks this is a healthy discourse

f*** you

 

[King'sPawn]

Ah, I see. You, or others like you are the arbitor of who and who is not being marginalized. Interesting.

I have asked you multiple times to provide examples of how your maligned demographics are being marginalized so the discussion can happen. I spoke of my own experience, which may be off. Just like you spoke of your experience where you think gay people are allowed to live their lives.

I brought up the importance of raising awareness of societal issues. What even are you arguing aside from trying to imply I am (or people "like me") a hypocrite? That stuff you value isn't celebrated more at sporting events? That modern inclusive language advises "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"? That we don't have a "White Pride"?

Because you clearly are okay with certain agendas being pushed. Like having taxpayer money be spent to recruit solders at sporting events. I'd think you would have a problem if the LGBTQ+ community spent money to "recruit" supporters. Some would say that would be "grooming". So what are people supposed to do to ensure equality?

The phrase white privilege is racist. Thats the irony of the anti-racist ideology. Its also stereotyping as if all whites have privilige and all non-whites dont. Categorizing on skin color is a demeaning exercise. Its also quite stupid... skin color is on a spectrum, what RGB values are the threshold white to brown to black? I dont understand how this has become mainstream thought but it has. Its as if the race lessons past have been ignored and have merely been flipped around in the other direction.

You're conflating the discussion of white privilege with this trope of being anti-white. It's not.

And yes, of course there are white people having **** happen and black/gay people having good things happen.

But by and large, because white people are the majority in this country, we don't have to worry about laws that would take our rights to exist away. It's a privilege not to have to worry about these injustices. Like, can you imagine if we needed 5 white people for votes to matter as much as 3 black people? That's what the Constitution did when they said a slave was 3/5ths of a person.

What if the school were to get sued because a female teacher mentioned her husband, and a parent sues the school over a heteronormative value "being pushed"... because that's part of what Florida's HB1557 (or "Don't Say Gay" bill) permits, except it's directed at LGBTQ+.

The privilege here is not having to worry about societal issues which "don't impact you."

Okay so this thread is on the verge of tipping into being derailed here. I'm okay with the discussing the Provorov incident as long as its civil, but once we start going off topic and attacking other people is when I'll have to draw the line. I don't want to because I think its a discussion worth having, but it feels like this thread is going the way of the one on the main board

Sorry, I'll try not to veer off too much more. I saw this update as I was writing. I promise I earnestly believe this all ties in to the Provorov incident. But to keep it clear - I am disappointed in Provorov's choice, because I think we, as a society, have an obligation to call out injustices and to stand by the marginalized. I don't think he should be sat or even punished. Even if you don't agree with the lifestyle, you should be a proponent of their right to live as they do. If you refuse someone's right to equality based on your religion, then I think there's an opportunity for education. Not to teach him his religion is wrong. But why marginalized people need to know they have a place in the community. Maybe not in your Heaven. Maybe not in any Heaven. That's a different discussion. But they have a place here.

 

[SaltyElkHunter]

f*** you

Don’t worry I won’t report you for a personal attack because words don’t hurt lol

 

[LAKings88]

I wasn’t gonna weigh in on Provorov but 2 things came to mind.

Saying it’s against your beliefs is your right. But that also has now put a spotlight on his other actions. Christians also consider other sexual “sin” against their beliefs (porn, pre-marital sex, etc) so much spotlight on homosexuality and little attention given to other areas can be hypocritical. Not saying he does these just that the spotlight is there now.

Also, isn’t Russia known for is homophobic tendencies?

 

[Fishhead]

I took this stance for a large part, too. And this is where the term "white privilege" comes from; because as a straight, CIS, white male, I could be completely content not caring about societal issues and behaviors that weren't affecting me, personally. Consequently, I avoided this stuff for most of my life. And as you can see by me posting here, I'm okay.

But I have friends in the less privileged demographics; black, Muslim, gay, women; and I started taking more time to understand the methods in which society has done less to defend their equality. And the option is either to go back to not caring since it doesn't directly affect me or try to help fight on their behalf, which I guess is why I often come across as a pain in the ass. I've had friends come out to me before anyone else, because they were subjected to homophobic language and narratives in their household, and I was the only person they trusted. Because unfortunately, there are a large number of people being taught that their homosexuality is evil and they're gross people. It was an honor to have someone's trust to that degree, but it's ****ing gross.

Trust me, I understand the (for lack of a better word) apathy. I also understand how tiring and overwhelming it can be to think of all the problems going on in the world. But when we have a unified moment to say "all people deserve equal rights to exist, and we should denounce any measures or attitudes that puts one demographic of people above or below everyone else", I think it's important to know that unless everyone around you is a straight, CIS, white male, there is a possibility someone inside your circle could be affected.

Absolutely, and if someone in my circle is affected, I'll absolutely support them in every way. Even their acquaintances. 30% of my wedding party was LBGTQ, I'm acutely aware of the struggles they face.

I believe we should all strive for giving everyone the same opportunities, but what they do with it is up to them. I also don't believe in marginalizing any race, gender, or culture. But not marginalizing other cultures also means being able to accept that other cultures have drastically different beliefs than I do, which is the difficult part.

It's not that I don't care personally, and you are right apathy probably isn't the best descriptor, I just don't have the time or mental energy to worry about everything. Because everything is my background is scientific, I already find the thought that another human is substantially different from me because of race, beliefs, and so on completely ludicrous. It's also made me very cynical of the human race as a whole, who seems to think they are above other animals when we are the ones driving them to extinction and f***ing up the entire planet. So what humans do is never a surprise, we are what we are. So if there is something I can do where I feel there is a good chance it will help others, I'll do it. But if it's something where I know damn well it's not going to change anything, I just accept it, toss it in long-term memory and move on.

 

[King'sPawn]

Absolutely, and if someone in my circle is affected, I'll absolutely support them in every way. Even their acquaintances. 30% of my wedding party was LBGTQ, I'm acutely aware of the struggles they face.

I believe we should all strive for giving everyone the same opportunities, but what they do with it is up to them. I also don't believe in marginalizing any race, gender, or culture. But not marginalizing other cultures also means being able to accept that other cultures have drastically different beliefs than I do, which is the difficult part.

It's not that I don't care personally, and you are right apathy probably isn't the best descriptor, I just don't have the time or mental energy to worry about everything. Because everything is my background is scientific, I already find the thought that another human is substantially different from me because of race, beliefs, and so on completely ludicrous. It's also made me very cynical of the human race as a whole, who seems to think they are above other animals when we are the ones driving them to extinction and f***ing up the entire planet. So what humans do is never a surprise, we are what we are. So if there is something I can do where I feel there is a good chance it will help others, I'll do it. But if it's something where I know damn well it's not going to change anything, I just accept it, toss it in long-term memory and move on.

I understand and appreciate the response. I hope mine didn't come across as calling you out - it was just the most appropriate opportunity for me to address the "don't get worked up if it doesn't affect me" to address the importance of societal vigilance, and why I support these events at sports.

 

[Fishhead]

I understand and appreciate the response. I hope mine didn't come across as calling you out - it was just the most appropriate opportunity for me to address the "don't get worked up if it doesn't affect me" to address the importance of societal vigilance, and why I support these events at sports.

All good, it didn't come across like that at all. I always participate in small gestures or showing appreciation to bring others up. Stuff like that is important to me.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Ah, I see. You, or others like you are the arbitor of who and who is not being marginalized. Interesting.

Do you really believe that "supporters of the 2nd Amendment" are as marginalized as LGBT?

Because I've known you for a long, long time, and that would easily be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post here.

 

[KINGS17]

delete

Let

Do you really believe that "supporters of the 2nd Amendment" are as marginalized as LGBT?

Because I've known you for a long, long time, and that would easily be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post here.

Does it matter to what degree they are marginalized and attacked?

As I said to KP, who are you to judge? What makes a cause you support more just than any other?

The point is, you don't get to decide, and to think otherwise is ridiculous.

 

[KingLB]

Let

Does it matter to what degree they are marginalized and attacked?

As I said to KP, who are you to judge? What makes a cause you support more just than any other?

The point is, you don't get to decide, and to think otherwise is ridiculous.

You don’t get to decide that he doesn’t get to decide!

 

[AbsentMojo]

Perhaps to foster an environment where gay players (there will be many) can be open about who they are, as a start.

You're conflating the discussion of white privilege with this trope of being anti-white. It's not.

Putting white in front of privilege is racial by definition. The terminology is a stereotype - I dont see how that can be debated. Advantages (privilege) come in all shapes and size.. intelligence, beauty, wealth, athletic ability, etc. Is it useful to single a skin color vs discuss privilige in general? Stating some obvious: The USA was established by Europeans and most immigration came from Europe in its 1st 200 years (all mostly white) ... families had many years to establish themselves and gain wealth and places in society (privilege). But it wasnt handed to those that made it - plenty became poor and the underclass. Irish came in droves during potato famine - were discriminated against for many years and were considered lower class for a long time until they worked their way up.

But by and large, because white people are the majority in this country, we don't have to worry about laws that would take our rights to exist away. It's a privilege not to have to worry about these injustices. Like, can you imagine if we needed 5 white people for votes to matter as much as 3 black people? That's what the Constitution did when they said a slave was 3/5ths of a person.

This 3/5ths is directly tied to slavery and congressional representation in the South (it was a compromise that balanced the power between north and south since the north did not have slaves)..Slavery throughout history did not single out race - every race has been enslaved at one time or another. Most of the slaves in the south were black. If after emancipation they were counted as 3/5ths - that would be a different story. This is not to deny the disgusting level of racism leveled against post emancipated blacks esp in the South.

What if the school were to get sued because a female teacher mentioned her husband, and a parent sues the school over a heteronormative value "being pushed"... because that's part of what Florida's HB1557 (or "Don't Say Gay" bill) permits, except it's directed at LGBTQ+.

This one I dont have enough info to comment directly.. but in general all parents should have a say in what ideas get taught in classrooms - thats what the school board is for. When society is changing as rapidly as it is now, its going to take some battles to work it all out. The point of giving states more power than central govt was to deal with situations such as this so within the same country you can find values that suit you... society should not be one size fits all. Humans didnt come with instructions - there are always going to be major ideological differences and we've never been more diverse and far apart as a country on our values.

 

[KINGS17]

I wasn’t gonna weigh in on Provorov but 2 things came to mind.

Saying it’s against your beliefs is your right. But that also has now put a spotlight on his other actions. Christians also consider other sexual “sin” against their beliefs (porn, pre-marital sex, etc) so much spotlight on homosexuality and little attention given to other areas can be hypocritical. Not saying he does these just that the spotlight is there now.

Also, isn’t Russia known for is homophobic tendencies?

Full list of countries where homosexuality is outlawed:​

Afghanistan
Algeria
Antigua & Barbuda
Bangladesh
Barbados
Bhutan
Brunei
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
Comoros
Cook Islands
Dominica
Egypt
Eritrea
Eswatini
Ethiopia
Gambia
Ghana
Grenada
Guinea
Guyana
Iran
Jamaica
Kenya
Kiribati
Kuwait
Lebanon
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Mauritius
Morocco
Myanmar
Namibia
Nigeria
Occupied Palestinian Territory (Gaza Strip)
Oman
Pakistan
Papua New Guinea
Qatar
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and The Grenadines
Samoa
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Sudan
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Syria
Tanzania
Togo
Tonga
Tunisia
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu
Uganda
Uzbekistan
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Hmm, I don't see Russia on the list. Not sure the significance of your question.

When they have a night celebrating porn stars, I bet the guy doesn't participate.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'll share my example in a short version. I've shared this story before.

Grew up in socal of course playing ice hockey. Middle eastern background. Experienced an extremely racist incident--and violent attack--during a game when i was 15. It happened right by the benches, within earshot of both, all the officials, and the entire (not a ton of people obviously, but think tournament parents) crowd. There were three players on the other team involved, and just me on mine. I walked out of there and had to have a hearing with the league. I needed stitches, but nothing really major. But the real pain began when I got dragged during the hearing and no one would stand up for me. The result? I got suspended TEN games--the three offending parties got absolutely nothing.

The point? All it took was no one supporting me to turn me off competitive hockey altogether. The people saying nothing may as well have been the kids throwing racist slurs and spearing me from the bench. My coaches may as well have been in on it.

We can't say 'hockey is for everyone' and then say 'well except them because it conflicts with my beliefs.' I said before I don't think Provorov tried to do that, I believe he may be sincerely dedicated to his culture and religion, but of course it's at odds with social progress. The problem with that is turning a blind eye to inequity means kids like me get turned off the game.

I appreciate the discussion and it seems like people are really talking and listening here. I don't think there's a 'right' answer. It's easy for me to say "just throw on the f***ing jersey for 10 minutes" but I can't fault him individually really either. Yet, the outcome may be like above for some people. What if I'm gay and Provorov is my favorite player? Yeah yeah don't meet your heroes and all that--just musing at this point. There's a message sent whether he intends it or not and that's the unfortunate byproduct of fame.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Let

Does it matter to what degree they are marginalized and attacked?

As I said to KP, who are you to judge? What makes a cause you support more just than any other?

The point is, you don't get to decide, and to think otherwise is ridiculous.

Marginalization of social groups is not a matter of opinion. It can be - and has been - objectively measured. Surely you understand this?

 

[KINGS17]

I'll share my example in a short version. I've shared this story before.

Grew up in socal of course playing ice hockey. Middle eastern background. Experienced an extremely racist incident--and violent attack--during a game when i was 15. It happened right by the benches, within earshot of both, all the officials, and the entire (not a ton of people obviously, but think tournament parents) crowd. There were three players on the other team involved, and just me on mine. I walked out of there and had to have a hearing with the league. I needed stitches, but nothing really major. But the real pain began when I got dragged during the hearing and no one would stand up for me. The result? I got suspended TEN games--the three offending parties got absolutely nothing.

The point? All it took was no one supporting me to turn me off competitive hockey altogether. The people saying nothing may as well have been the kids throwing racist slurs and spearing me from the bench. My coaches may as well have been in on it.

We can't say 'hockey is for everyone' and then say 'well except them because it conflicts with my beliefs.' I said before I don't think Provorov tried to do that, I believe he may be sincerely dedicated to his culture and religion, but of course it's at odds with social progress. The problem with that is turning a blind eye to inequity means kids like me get turned off the game.

I appreciate the discussion and it seems like people are really talking and listening here. I don't think there's a 'right' answer. It's easy for me to say "just throw on the f***ing jersey for 10 minutes" but I can't fault him individually really either. Yet, the outcome may be like above for some people. What if I'm gay and Provorov is my favorite player? Yeah yeah don't meet your heroes and all that--just musing at this point. There's a message sent whether he intends it or not and that's the unfortunate byproduct of fame.

Sorry again to hear about your experience. You are right, that was BS.

What you experienced (the 3 vs 1 stuff) on the rink would never happen to one of my teammates.

I don't think equal treatment comes with "nights". I think equal treatment comes when a situation like yours is addressed correctly, and not in the crap way the league you were playing in and the adults handled it.

 

[LAKings88]

Full list of countries where homosexuality is outlawed:​

Afghanistan
Algeria
Antigua & Barbuda
Bangladesh
Barbados
Bhutan
Brunei
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
Comoros
Cook Islands
Dominica
Egypt
Eritrea
Eswatini
Ethiopia
Gambia
Ghana
Grenada
Guinea
Guyana
Iran
Jamaica
Kenya
Kiribati
Kuwait
Lebanon
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Mauritius
Morocco
Myanmar
Namibia
Nigeria
Occupied Palestinian Territory (Gaza Strip)
Oman
Pakistan
Papua New Guinea
Qatar
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and The Grenadines
Samoa
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Sudan
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Syria
Tanzania
Togo
Tonga
Tunisia
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu
Uganda
Uzbekistan
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Hmm, I don't see Russia on the list. Not sure the significance of your question.

When they have a night celebrating porn stars, I bet the guy doesn't participate.

A quick google search shows Russia’s attitude towards it. Provorov is Russian, just saying.

If you claim to be a Christian then walk the walk. In all areas. Do it while not throwing stones. He has made a public statement and now will be scrutinized like it or not.

 

[kingsholygrail]

 

[johnjm22]

If a guy doesn't want to wear a jersey, fine, just understand that it IS a statement that either is actively an endorsement of those politics or at the very least a personal choice to stand on one side of a line that is being hotly contested at the moment.

Social and political views aren't always binary. There's usually more nuance on an individual level. And the politics of a person don't always fit into a box. Believing X, doesn't mean you believe in Y and Z.

People are more complicated than that.

 

[KINGS17]

A quick google search shows Russia’s attitude towards it. Provorov is Russian, just saying.

If you claim to be a Christian then walk the walk. In all areas. Do it while not throwing stones. He has made a public statement and now will be scrutinized like it or not.

I have not claimed to be anything, and if I am Christian as you suggest, how is it you decide what the "walk" is, and what "throwing stones" is in all cases?

All I said was I think the NHL should refrain from promoting social causes that have political connotations. Others made comparisons to 9/11, which I think is absurd.

The NHL can have their "night", and it doesn't bother me enough to stop being a patron, and in fact it doesn't bother me at all. What does piss me off is the self righteous indignance of those who choose to chastise a player who doesn't wish to participate.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The issue is that the decision not to wear the jersey is for the same reasons that others are in fact actively trying to remove basic freedoms guaranteed by the constitution while making sociological changes to oppress the group the jersey was designed to support AND negate the protections being sought.

Its a curious decision because that battle is actively being fought on so many fronts at the minute.

If a guy doesn't want to wear a jersey, fine, just understand that it IS a statement that either is actively an endorsement of those politics or at the very least a personal choice to stand on one side of a line that is being hotly contested at the moment.

Which should result in what though? He should be shipped back to Russia immediately? There should be top-down punishment for what is a thought?