Around the League 2022-23 season

[Schmooley]

I think it’s because in many parts of the country and the world, politicians are fighting to make laws to to take away their rights. Just the fight for equality. No big deal.

Some of the politicians that fight the hardest against it are gay themselves but in the closet. Some kind of self hatred maybe.

 

[Schrute farms]

This is why these types of societal issues/topics should not be part of sports.

Also, why such hard condemning of the guy and him staying in the NHL? Isn't the right to have your own personal opinions part of what makes the USA so great?

 

[KINGS17]

In some way, I appreciate Provorov's commitment to his beliefs. I think I understand what he's saying, "I respect that life but it's not for me," and he's from a culture and religion actively and outspokenly trying to make sure LGBT isn't a thing at all--so his response is pretty moderate in that lens.

But I also appreciate that his freedom to those beliefs will also allow people to speek freely about his gesture.

Freedom of speech isn't freedom of consequence, and it seems like some people want to say "good for Provorov" in one breath and "how dare you speak out against him' in another which...you can't have it both ways.

I can imagine that will be a pain in the ass for many of his teammates who are very outspoken allies, like Laughton and (I think?) Hayes. The organization, including his coach, having to answer for him sucks for everyone, and it's a distraction from their message. Provorov is going to get--rightfully so--eviscerated under a different cultural lens here. But if he truly believes in himself, he'll have no problem with the public criticism of those views.

Not everyone has to believe what everyone else believes and I'm fine with that. I actually believe Provorov doesn't intend the harm he's causing. But as a professional athlete, he's under the spotlight whether he likes it or not. This isn't joe schmo average citizen, this is a guy getting compensated millions to be part of an organization with values and when his value's are in conflict with the org's people are going to talk about it, this part should not be offensive.

People are free to have an opinion on what Provorov did, and that's fine. I think it's extreme to call for banning him, or "never want him on my team" BS. The NHL, or an organization, has the freedom to make that choice, but as you said there can be consequences.

I wouldn't support any organization which chooses to ban a player for making such a decision. I disagree with you on one point here as well. Provorov isn't causing harm. The reaction from those who want to punish him, are causing the harm.

 

[King'sPawn]

You're right KP, I don't see everything the way you do. That is why I said stop having nights involving the promotion of one viewpoint over another. I am sure you would love a night promoting the 2nd Amendment, right?

People with firearms are being marginalized? Are their rights to exist threatened? Are laws being enacted to give gun owners fewer rights than non-gun owners? I wouldn't love it, but that's because with what I've seen, guns are legally being obtained to illegally end the life of people; the right to life the core tenet of the Constitution. If there's action being taken to take the rights to exist away from gun owners, then I'm all for the conversation.

A player exercises his right to free speech, and how do many on "your side" react? Ban him for life! Send him back to Russia! Did he break some law? Is he here illegally? What purpose does punishing him serve, if it isn't to silence those who do not agree with you?

I don't agree with banning him for life or sending him back to Russia. However, the inflammatory rhetoric of being intolerant towards him is because, incidentally, Provorov is showing intolerance towards a subset of people. This rings so much of "sO mUCh foR tHE ToLerAnT LeFT" when there are few ways to denounce homophobic/intolerant rhetoric.

...and enough with the raise awareness BS. We are all very aware. If you are gay, go live your life. No one is stopping you. There are no laws agaisnt it. If I want to be aware about a particular subject, I read information on it, seek the viewpoint of people who know the subject from different angles, etc.

I don't go to a hockey game to become "aware".

Past Legislation Affecting LGBTQ Rights Across the Country 2022 | American Civil Liberties Union

Last updated 12/2/22 Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people in America continue to face discrimination in their daily lives. While more states every year work to pass laws to protect LGBTQ people, we continue to see state legislatures advancing bills that target transgender...

www.aclu.org

Politicians are trying to enact laws giving people in the LGBTQ+ community fewer rights than straight, CIS people. Sounds like you aren't very aware. And why we have pride nights to show people they belong in the community as much as everyone else.

And from what I read, Provorov said he is Russian Orthodox, which aligns very much with Christianity (and the teachings of Christ). I was raised a Christian (though I've since leaned towards agnoticism), but I don't recall any teachings that discourage compassion towards gay people... so I don't know exactly what part of his faith he is adhering to.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Maybe not, but just as there is nothing wrong with what Provorov did, there is nothing wrong with what Philly decided to do (have the event in the first place) the reactions on both side OVER what transpired...is where people go sideways, or do/say stupid shit.....

I don't know why it's so damn hard to go, oh, they had an event cool, oh, he didn't participate...ok....what's for dinner.....

We don't have to take sides on every single event that's happened or will happen.....

Yes the concept that if you are not for me, you are against me...no middle ground

 

[Shellz]

delete

 

[Fishhead]

Seems like in todays age, there is a desire or whatever you want to call it....to be on one side of another, instead of just simply understanding both

That's called the internet.

Back in the day if I would have said something about a gay friend like "I support him in everything, he's a good friend" or "OMG he's an AIDS merchant", very few people would have known. Yeah, word gets around but really, unless a bunch of people paged me and I had a shitload of dimes to stand in front of the payphone and call them all back, they never would know one way or the other. It's the price of technology.

I used social media when it was mostly media sharing and crap like that, but once it turned into a soapbox for hot button issues I completely vacated it.

Not trying to be "get the hell off my lawn" here, but people were a LOT happier back then than they are now. It's not so much ignorance is bliss, and more not getting worked up over a bunch of stuff that has zero effect on me. I avoid national politics for the same reason, I discovered a long time ago that my life doesn't change a substantial amount no matter what party is in power. I might not completely understand some people's stances on things, but I certainly will never take it personally and it won't bother me unless it's someone in my immediate circle and it's causing issues.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

"Keep politics out of sports,” I mutter to myself at *insert corporate sponsor here* Stadium owned by X billionaire while I get rock hard as the stadium vibrates when the F-35 completes its first successful flight ever overhead, I sing along to the song pledging blind fealty to the state, and I sip my $20 beer brewed by the company that controls 95% of the beer market. “I like my sports pure,” I say.

 

[Fishhead]

Let’s be honest, hes hiding behind his religion. The Bible also says you can’t wear a shirt on Sunday’s and that you can’t eat fat and some other ridiculous stuff that people do every day. He’s just being a homophobe, let’s be honest here.

Maybe, but if we are truly being honest here this isn't fact, it's opinion. It's absolutely impossible to know what Provorov is thinking. Just because it may appear that way to us doesn't mean that it's actually the case.

While I don't really disagree with your assessment, what if he actually is not a homophobe and it's something else? So now he's been called a homophobe in print and he isn't, which is essentially libel. If enough people do this, it can absolutely have effects on his career, future earnings, and so on, all based on an erroneous assumption. I can also guarantee that if it ever came out that Provorov had a specific reason that most would call socially acceptable, we wouldn't hear about it because it would be back page news.

It's the slipperiest slope on the internet.

 

[BringTheReign]

"Keep politics out of sports,” I mutter to myself at *insert corporate sponsor here* Stadium owned by X billionaire while I get rock hard as the stadium vibrates when the F-35 completes its first successful flight ever overhead, I sing along to the song pledging blind fealty to the state, and I sip my $20 beer brewed by the company that controls 95% of the beer market. “I like my sports pure,” I say.

Bingo. "Stick to sports" isn't new, and it's typically not proven to be viewed favorably by history either (e.g. Jackie Robinson, Herb Carnegie, Willie O'Ree, Mohammed Ali, and so on).

 

[Shellz]

Maybe, but if we are truly being honest here this isn't fact, it's opinion. It's absolutely impossible to know what Provorov is thinking. Just because it may appear that way to us doesn't mean that it's actually the case.

While I don't really disagree with your assessment, what if he actually is not a homophobe and it's something else? So now he's been called a homophobe in print and he isn't, which is essentially libel. If enough people do this, it can absolutely have effects on his career, future earnings, and so on, all based on an erroneous assumption. I can also guarantee that if it ever came out that Provorov had a specific reason that most would call socially acceptable, we wouldn't hear about it because it would be back page news.

It's the slipperiest slope on the internet.

I deleted my post because we don’t truly know and I don’t want to jump to anything. He can think what he wants. Reading the Flyers board, he doesnt come across as somebody who is respected … even before this. (obviously taking what the fans say with a grain of salt). I think he’s digging his own grave and if that’s a hill he wants to die on, so be it.

 

[Statto]

I understand that....but here's a question....why do we have to be on one side or the other? Why can't we acknowledge both....and then....move on.....

Seems like in todays age, there is a desire or whatever you want to call it....to be on one side of another, instead of just simply understanding both

The problem is that there are apparently no gay players in the league… that’s the harm. They work in an environment where that cannot be open about who they are. Hockey is far from the only sport that has this issue. However, attitudes need to evolve.

I’ve said my piece on Prov separately. However I don’t understand both sides at all because the religious argument holds little argument, because it contradicts the fundamental faith. The religious bit is the rules imposed by the members… I’ll stop before I go any further (mods feel free to edit).

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Maybe, but if we are truly being honest here this isn't fact, it's opinion. It's absolutely impossible to know what Provorov is thinking. Just because it may appear that way to us doesn't mean that it's actually the case.

While I don't really disagree with your assessment, what if he actually is not a homophobe and it's something else? So now he's been called a homophobe in print and he isn't, which is essentially libel. If enough people do this, it can absolutely have effects on his career, future earnings, and so on, all based on an erroneous assumption. I can also guarantee that if it ever came out that Provorov had a specific reason that most would call socially acceptable, we wouldn't hear about it because it would be back page news.

It's the slipperiest slope on the internet.

You’re bemoaning the dangers of slippery slope by presenting an absurd slippery slope.

Is this satire?

 

[King'sPawn]

That's called the internet.

Back in the day if I would have said something about a gay friend like "I support him in everything, he's a good friend" or "OMG he's an AIDS merchant", very few people would have known. Yeah, word gets around but really, unless a bunch of people paged me and I had a shitload of dimes to stand in front of the payphone and call them all back, they never would know one way or the other. It's the price of technology.

I used social media when it was mostly media sharing and crap like that, but once it turned into a soapbox for hot button issues I completely vacated it.

Not trying to be "get the hell off my lawn" here, but people were a LOT happier back then than they are now. It's not so much ignorance is bliss, and more not getting worked up over a bunch of stuff that has zero effect on me. I avoid national politics for the same reason, I discovered a long time ago that my life doesn't change a substantial amount no matter what party is in power. I might not completely understand some people's stances on things, but I certainly will never take it personally and it won't bother me unless it's someone in my immediate circle and it's causing issues.

I took this stance for a large part, too. And this is where the term "white privilege" comes from; because as a straight, CIS, white male, I could be completely content not caring about societal issues and behaviors that weren't affecting me, personally. Consequently, I avoided this stuff for most of my life. And as you can see by me posting here, I'm okay.

But I have friends in the less privileged demographics; black, Muslim, gay, women; and I started taking more time to understand the methods in which society has done less to defend their equality. And the option is either to go back to not caring since it doesn't directly affect me or try to help fight on their behalf, which I guess is why I often come across as a pain in the ass. I've had friends come out to me before anyone else, because they were subjected to homophobic language and narratives in their household, and I was the only person they trusted. Because unfortunately, there are a large number of people being taught that their homosexuality is evil and they're gross people. It was an honor to have someone's trust to that degree, but it's ****ing gross.

Trust me, I understand the (for lack of a better word) apathy. I also understand how tiring and overwhelming it can be to think of all the problems going on in the world. But when we have a unified moment to say "all people deserve equal rights to exist, and we should denounce any measures or attitudes that puts one demographic of people above or below everyone else", I think it's important to know that unless everyone around you is a straight, CIS, white male, there is a possibility someone inside your circle could be affected.

 

[KINGS17]

People with firearms are being marginalized? Are their rights to exist threatened? Are laws being enacted to give gun owners fewer rights than non-gun owners? I wouldn't love it, but that's because with what I've seen, guns are legally being obtained to illegally end the life of people; the right to life the core tenet of the Constitution. If there's action being taken to take the rights to exist away from gun owners, then I'm all for the conversation.



I don't agree with banning him for life or sending him back to Russia. However, the inflammatory rhetoric of being intolerant towards him is because, incidentally, Provorov is showing intolerance towards a subset of people. This rings so much of "sO mUCh foR tHE ToLerAnT LeFT" when there are few ways to denounce homophobic/intolerant rhetoric.

Past Legislation Affecting LGBTQ Rights Across the Country 2022 | American Civil Liberties Union

Last updated 12/2/22 Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people in America continue to face discrimination in their daily lives. While more states every year work to pass laws to protect LGBTQ people, we continue to see state legislatures advancing bills that target transgender...

www.aclu.org

Politicians are trying to enact laws giving people in the LGBTQ+ community fewer rights than straight, CIS people. Sounds like you aren't very aware. And why we have pride nights to show people they belong in the community as much as everyone else.

And from what I read, Provorov said he is Russian Orthodox, which aligns very much with Christianity (and the teachings of Christ). I was raised a Christian (though I've since leaned towards agnoticism), but I don't recall any teachings that discourage compassion towards gay people... so I don't know exactly what part of his faith he is adhering to.

Ah, I see. You, or others like you are the arbitor of who and who is not being marginalized. Interesting.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The problem is that there are apparently no gay players in the league… that’s the harm. They work in an environment where that cannot be open about who they are. Hockey is far from the only sport that has this issue. However, attitudes need to evolve.

I’ve said my piece on Prov separately. However I don’t understand both sides at all because the religious argument holds little argument, because it contradicts the fundamental faith. The religious bit is the rules imposed by the members… I’ll stop before I go any further (mods feel free to edit).

This is a tough one, because I understand what you are saying, and my reaction is, is that harmful? Are there gay players who were absolutely 100% good enough to make it and didnt? I don't know, if one can show that, then maybe I can agree there's harm...

Definitely not wanting to get into a debate about LGBTQ rights in pro sports etc, but if there's no player good enough to make it, regardless of sexual preference, I fail to see where harm is....

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I took this stance for a large part, too. And this is where the term "white privilege" comes from; because as a straight, CIS, white male, I could be completely content not caring about societal issues and behaviors that weren't affecting me, personally. Consequently, I avoided this stuff for most of my life. And as you can see by me posting here, I'm okay.

But I have friends in the less privileged demographics; black, Muslim, gay, women; and I started taking more time to understand the methods in which society has done less to defend their equality. And the option is either to go back to not caring since it doesn't directly affect me or try to help fight on their behalf, which I guess is why I often come across as a pain in the ass. I've had friends come out to me before anyone else, because they were subjected to homophobic language and narratives in their household, and I was the only person they trusted. Because unfortunately, there are a large number of people being taught that their homosexuality is evil and they're gross people. It was an honor to have someone's trust to that degree, but it's ****ing gross.

Trust me, I understand the (for lack of a better word) apathy. I also understand how tiring and overwhelming it can be to think of all the problems going on in the world. But when we have a unified moment to say "all people deserve equal rights to exist, and we should denounce any measures or attitudes that puts one demographic of people above or below everyone else", I think it's important to know that unless everyone around you is a straight, CIS, white male, there is a possibility someone inside your circle could be affected.

The problem is,and I'm pretty sure you won't see this....but the problem isn't apathy......having understanding of the plight they are in, is fine, wanting to fight for their rights, admirable......the problem becomes when it goes PAST that.......when people whose opinion you don't agree with, are demonized as being bad and evil, because they don't believe the way you do....

Hypothetical, you are gay, I am not, or other way around, don't really care....but I can 100% disagree with you about gay being normal, or not, and still support your rights to live a free and happy life.....you can 100% disagree with me about being gay etc, and NOT believe I am demonic or evil etc....

I' am doing a shit job of putting this in words, but it really comes down to.....how tolerable are you being, when you can't tolerate an opinion that is different from yours...

 

[SaltyElkHunter]

This morning my wife got a new hairstyle that 90% of women don’t have. I didn’t compliment her on it. I hope this doesn’t mean that I hate my wife and think she is a stupid bitch.


Those were her words and her analogy btw/ so hold the sexiest toxic masculinity BS comments.

 

[AbsentMojo]

I took this stance for a large part, too. And this is where the term "white privilege" comes from; because as a straight, CIS, white male, I could be completely content not caring about societal issues and behaviors that weren't affecting me, personally. Consequently, I avoided this stuff for most of my life. And as you can see by me posting here, I'm okay.

The phrase white privilege is racist. Thats the irony of the anti-racist ideology. Its also stereotyping as if all whites have privilige and all non-whites dont. Categorizing on skin color is a demeaning exercise. Its also quite stupid... skin color is on a spectrum, what RGB values are the threshold white to brown to black? I dont understand how this has become mainstream thought but it has. Its as if the race lessons of the past have been ignored and have merely been flipped around in the other direction.

 

[kingsboy11]

Okay so this thread is on the verge of tipping into being derailed here. I'm okay with the discussing the Provorov incident as long as its civil, but once we start going off topic and attacking other people is when I'll have to draw the line. I don't want to because I think its a discussion worth having, but it feels like this thread is going the way of the one on the main board

 

[bland]

Ah, I see. You, or others like you are the arbitor of who and who is not being marginalized. Interesting.

Oh come on now. There's no secret to what's going on here. Its not political, its sociological events being politicized because its offensive to people who ridiculously think that their thousands of years of sheer dominance is being marginalized by lifting the oppressed to the equality the country is purportedly based on.

 

[Kudelski37]

In the 90s, Russian NHL players were extorted by the Russian mob by threatening family members back in Russia. Under Putin, many anti-gay laws have been enacted in Russia. Russians abroad have been harassed, threatened and even killed when going against the Russian government. There is a nonzero chance Provorov is more concerned about how his safety and/or the safety of those that he knows still living in Russia would be impacted by participating in an event that would be illegal in Russia.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Okay so this thread is on the verge of tipping into being derailed here. I'm okay with the discussing the Provorov incident as long as its civil, but once we start going off topic and attacking other people is when I'll have to draw the line. I don't want to because I think its a discussion worth having, but it feels like this thread is going the way of the one on the main board

Meh, I think for the most part everyone is being polite.....including myself which I know puts everyone in a state of shock....

 

[AbsentMojo]

Okay so this thread is on the verge of tipping into being derailed here. I'm okay with the discussing the Provorov incident as long as its civil, but once we start going off topic and attacking other people is when I'll have to draw the line. I don't want to because I think its a discussion worth having, but it feels like this thread is going the way of the one on the main board

I have to say I think the discussion has been civil and very worthwhile - there are alot of very intelligent, highly considered posts from various points of view.. but if it digresses into personal attacks it should be closed immediately. Its good to a little steam off and express yourself amongst respected fellow posters on whatever side of these arguments. Ive rarely had the forum to discuss any of this with the level of intelligence ive found here.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I have to say I think the discussion has been civil and very worthwhile - there are alot of very intelligent, highly considered posts from various points of view.. but if it digresses into personal attacks it should be closed immediately. Its good to a little steam off and express yourself amongst respected fellow posters on whatever side of these arguments. Ive rarely had the forum to discuss any of this with the level of intelligence ive found here.

Clearly you were singling me out here....lmao