Around the League - 2022-23 Season Edition

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Dont confuse reasons with excuses. There are a number of reasons weve lost series, stating them doesnt excuse it, but it can help explain it.
I agree and would like to add that these reasons are not exclusive to the Leafs and it could pretty much applied to any teams that didn’t win the Cup.

Therefore, these reasons are not outliners that only happened to our boys, they are more common occurrence more than anything.
 
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No doubt they didn't get "goalied" in all of these series (I was just exaggerating to make a point) but the excuses have always been there. The excuses were there in the Washington series (too young/inexperienced) and they were there against Florida (Bob's goaltending).
All 31 teams that lose every year will always look for the reasons they lost. "Excuses" is just a label you are applying to them to paint them in a certain way, but it's a pretty normal thing to discuss. Personally, I don't really understand what the alternative around here - repeating that our team/players/coach/GM/assistant zamboni driver's son sucks, everything is horrible, there's no hope, [insert objectively false and disprovable narrative], etc. - accomplishes. I'd much rather discuss well researched and supported reasons behind the outcomes we saw.
To be fair, I have a strong feeling they would have lost the Tampa series too if that team was fully healthy.
Maybe, maybe not, but to be fair, if we go back to every series and put the optimal, fully healthy rosters up against each other, the Leafs likely win the majority. Add in objective, fair officiating and we'd be laughing. You seem to be able to acknowledge potential impacting factors to series outcomes here when it doesn't involve Toronto.
I'm not questioning your stats or even the intent behind it, but ever take a step back to realize all the team does is lose?
I realize that we've lost a lot of series. It sucks, and it's very easy to feel cursed, or like there HAS to be something inherently broken about us. But that's not true, and it's the stepping back itself that shines a different light on the situation. When you get out of the anger and the emotion and the increasing weight of the past, and you take a real, objective look at what has happened, why, how, to who, by how much, etc., things don't look quite so broken.

We can't change the past. All we can do is put the best team out there moving forward. The problem is, a lot of people aren't stepping back and taking an objective look at what's happened, and that has led to people advocating for blowing up something that is already built quite well, or chasing bad solutions to problems that don't exist, or at least don't exist for the reasons being targeted.
 
We dont get goalied every year. I think the common theme you could point to though is that we have not gotten good enough goaltending of our own and have yet to have one of our goalies go on a hot run of their own.

The way i see it is there's two categories of teams in the playoffs:

1) Elite teams like tampa that have elite goalie, elite offense, elite defence - they are able to overcome all kinds of things in the playoffs (like bad puck luck, bad calls going against them, etc) to win more often then not

2) Parity teams - the rest of the teams are simply good to very good but in a parity league there is not much to separate these teams. These teams are so close that things like goalie performance, officiating, and luck play a huge factor here. In order for these teams to go all the way to the finals they almost always require their goalie to go on an insane hot streak. This is why every year its a different team going on these runs. It relies on a hot streak that is difficult to replicate.

So when it comes to the leafs, unfortuntely we are a very good team but i would not consider us in the elite category as we have not had a goalie that is able to reliably perform at a high level in the playoffs and even our offense and defense are close to elite but fall a bit short. So like the rest of the teams we are going to need our goalie to get hot and going to need to rely on some favourable luck and penalty calls to advance all the way. Or we need to find a way to get into the elite category of teams by improving our offense, defence, and goaltending so that we dont have to rely on these other factors that are hard to control.

Sure you can nitpick lots of other reasons as to why we have not had much playoff success but usually those same reasons for failure can be applied to other teams that do get success. The difference boils down to luck and goalie's more than people want to admit. As one of the posters above said all you can do sometimes is just give your team the most number of kicks at the can to break through.
Fair points. I will say this: We cannot expect our goalies to post shutouts or 1 goal games because we can't score if the opposing goalie is playing half decently. That is what would be required of this team defensively if the offense is doing what it has been doing over the past several years and it's not realistic.

My issue with this team is 2 fold. I find our style of play (NuHockey) doesn't translate when the game is played along the boards for 80% of the game. We, for the most part, stay outside and play pitch and catch and it doesn't work well come April.

The second is the way the team is constructed with our 4 forwards making so much and all being very similar in style of play (not aggressive...don't charge the net etc..) It was a flawed premise that we could reinvent the wheel because Dubas and Shanny thought that the Pep possession style of Soccer would translate to hockey. After a few attempts at this and seeing the post season results...only a person in love with his own idea would keep doing the same thing...and that is what happened.
 
I mean, first off, we did not get "goalie'd" by Ayres. Not even remotely close. Ayres sucked against us. He had an 0.800 SV% and a deeply negative GSAx, and of the 4 emergency goalies that have played in the NHL, he is the only one to allow a goal (he allowed 2). Carolina is who dominated the last period of that game that they were already easily winning, and it was pretty obvious that neither Toronto or Andersen had their A game or even B game that night long before Ayres came in.

As for the others...
Holtby: Vezina, Jennings, Cup, 0.926 career playoff SV% (97 GP)
Rask: Vezina, Jennings, Cup, 0.925 career playoff SV% (104 GP)
Rask: Vezina, Jennings, Cup, 0.925 career playoff SV% (104 GP)
Korpisalo: Playoff save record, 0.922 career playoff SV% (15 GP)
Price: Vezina, Jennings, Hart, Lindsay, 0.919 career playoff SV% (92 GP)
Vasilevsky: Vezina, Cup, Cup, Conn Smythe, single-playoff win record, series-clinching shutout record, 0.921 career playoff SV% (110 GP)
Vasilevsky: Vezina, Cup, Cup, Conn Smythe, single-playoff win record, series-clinching shutout record, 0.921 career playoff SV% (110 GP)
Bobrovsky: Vezina, Vezina

Any goalie can go on a hot run, but would it really be that surprising for these goalies specifically to go on hot runs? These were some of the best goalies of this era, that have demonstrated an ability to play at that high level for periods of time much longer than a series. The only one who isn't is Korpisalo, but a heavily injured Columbus that year was the best defensive team the league has seen in a non-Covid division year in over half a decade, and Toronto was playing a shortened best-of-5 games in 8 nights in a dead, crowdless arena in a bubble in the middle of a pandemic, after not playing and barely skating for 5 months, so it's a bit hard to look too much into that, especially when Korpisalo would continue on to put up the all-time playoff save record against the eventual Cup champs in the very next game.

Also...we did not get "goalie'd" in every series. This is the goaltending our opponents received in each series:

Washington 2017: +2.55 GSAx in 6 games
Boston 2018: +0.55 GSAx in 7 games
Boston 2019: +1.41 GSAx in 7 games
Columbus 2020: +6.00 GSAx in 5 games
Montreal 2021: +6.83 GSAx in 7 games
Tampa 2022: +1.53 GSAx in 7 games
Tampa 2023: -3.09 GSAx in 6 games
Florida 2023: +9.58 GSAx in 5 games

So in actuality, you could argue we got "goalie'd" in 3 of our 8 series - Columbus, Montreal, and Florida. Those are the only ones where the goalie performed above what is generally expected from them, instead of what is expected or worse. Two of those came during Covid with no crowds, two of those teams rode those goalies to the Stanley Cup Final, and none of those teams lost to anybody except the Cup champions.

Let's take a look at the goaltending that the teams that beat us received in their subsequent series:

Washington 2017 round 2: -3.75 GSAx in 7 games
Boston 2018 round 2: -0.29 GSAx in 5 games
Boston 2019 round 2: +6.88 GSAx in 6 games
Columbus 2020 round 1: +3.69 GSAx in 5 games
Montreal 2021 round 2: +1.82 GSAx in 4 games
Tampa 2022 round 2: +9.41 GSAx in 4 games
Florida 2023 round 3: +10.32 GSAx in 4 games

So in 50 playoff games against us, our opponent's goalies have averaged +0.507 GSAx per game.
In 35 playoff games against the teams our opponents faced directly after us, our opponent's goalies have averaged +0.802 GSAx per game.
So we're actually converting better than the teams that advanced and faced them next.

As you can see, it doesn't always happen to us. We've had it happen 3 times out of our 8 series, which would be more concerning if it wasn't happening even more to others who face the same goalies. And there's nothing that would really indicate Dubas being a factor.

Could there be something unique to a team that could cause them to "get goalie'd" more? Sure, it's possible.
Maybe the weight of the losses and market are making them hold their sticks a little tighter. (we averaged over a post a game in 2 of the 3 series we got "goalie'd" in)
Maybe the abnormal lack of PPs that we tend to get in our series benefits goaltenders. Maybe injuries have factored in, or the things our opponents disproportionally get away with.
But we're historically a good converting team, and pretty much everything indicates that the primary cause in the playoffs has been the goalies, some of the best goalies in the game, who go on to do the same thing to others. Who happen to be abundant in our division and conference on playoff teams, meaning we're going to run into them a lot. That doesn't mean that there aren't things we could improve, and maybe there is some deeper reason, but what we do know is it's not the reasons people spew, like we're soft, don't care, don't give effort, don't get good shots, don't go to the high danger areas, don't go to the dirty areas, etc. That's just objectively not true.

Most other teams lose against those things too, for the record, unless they have their own similarly hot goalie.

Tampa received -3.1 GSAx goaltending in the series, and Toronto received -1.6 GSAx in the series. We did not "get outplayed virtually the whole series". The series was basically taking turns significantly outplaying the other, and ended about as 50-50 as you can get - a 50.26 vs 49.74 percentage split. The only one trying to have their cake and eat it too is you, because pretty much any argument for suggesting we didn't deserve to win against Tampa this year would simultaneously mean that we deserved to win multiple past series.
Ok...that bolded part is where you completely lose anyone who watches this team. We got outplayed in every single game but the 2nd one...it was a constant barrage of being stuck in our own end for long periods of time followed by flukey goals going by Vassey who played like shit. If you are being honest with yourself you would admit we had no business winning that series except for the fact our bad luck turned good for a short time. It was really lucky that we won and everyone knows it.
 
All 31 teams that lose every year will always look for the reasons they lost. "Excuses" is just a label you are applying to them to paint them in a certain way, but it's a pretty normal thing to discuss. Personally, I don't really understand what the alternative around here - repeating that our team/players/coach/GM/assistant zamboni driver's son sucks, everything is horrible, there's no hope, [insert objectively false and disprovable narrative], etc. - accomplishes. I'd much rather discuss well researched and supported reasons behind the outcomes we saw.

Maybe, maybe not, but to be fair, if we go back to every series and put the optimal, fully healthy rosters up against each other, the Leafs likely win the majority. Add in objective, fair officiating and we'd be laughing. You seem to be able to acknowledge potential impacting factors to series outcomes here when it doesn't involve Toronto.

Reasons quickly become excuses when changes aren't made.

It's these reasons that have led to them running back the core for years without any semblance of playoff success. I agree gutting the team is not the answer but neither is running back the same thing every year with supplementary changes.
 
Ok...that bolded part is where you completely lose anyone who watches this team. We got outplayed in every single game but the 2nd one...it was a constant barrage of being stuck in our own end for long periods of time followed by flukey goals going by Vassey who played like shit. If you are being honest with yourself you would admit we had no business winning that series except for the fact our bad luck turned good for a short time. It was really lucky that we won and everyone knows it.
Except last year turned on a couple weak penalty calls.

Lightning got the good luck.
 
Reasons quickly become excuses when changes aren't made.

It's these reasons that have led to them running back the core for years without any semblance of playoff success. I agree gutting the team is not the answer but neither is running back the same thing every year with supplementary changes.
Theyve changed basically everything except the core 4 and even that slowly shifted to a core 4 from a more shared model in their first 1-2 playoffs
 
especially when Korpisalo would continue on to put up the all-time playoff save record against the eventual Cup champs in the very next game.
What happened after that? Tampa figure him out and eventually smoke CBJ in 5?

Other teams seem perfectly capable of overcoming this allegedly impossible goaltending except us. If you want to rank us alongside teams like Tampa, Vegas, etc... then we need to overcome the hot goalie and beat them too. But we haven't, so you can't, all you can is make poor excuses.
 
What happened after that? Tampa figure him out and eventually smoke CBJ in 5?
After Korpisalo set the all-time playoff save record against the eventual cup champs, he continued on and beat them 3-1 in game 2 with another spectacular goaltending performance.

Tampa didn't smoke Columbus. They barely squeaked out four one-goal victories. Took until 5OT to win game 1. Lost in game 2. Won game 3 after Tampa barely generated anything for the first half of the game. Won game 4 in an even game where neither team generated much of anything. Got dominated by Columbus in game 5, generated less than a single expected goal by the time minutes were left in the game, and then had 3 quick goals at the end of regulation and the beginning of OT to take the series.

The Toronto-Columbus series was only 330 minutes, because of the abnormal best-of-5 format, and Columbus received +6.0 GSAx goaltending through that time. Through 330 minutes of the Tampa-Columbus series, Columbus had received +6.4 GSAx goaltending. Even if we're going by the idea that Tampa "figured it out" in the final 13 minutes of the series (instead of acknowledging that unsustainable runs are unsustainable and eventually run out on their own), they certainly didn't "figure it out" in the time that Toronto had to do so.

The biggest difference is that Tampa didn't have an Andersen to blow a 3-0 lead and lose a pivotal game 3.
 
After Korpisalo set the all-time playoff save record against the eventual cup champs, he continued on and beat them 3-1 in game 2 with another spectacular goaltending performance.

Tampa didn't smoke Columbus. They barely squeaked out four one-goal victories. Took until 5OT to win game 1. Lost in game 2. Won game 3 after Tampa barely generated anything for the first half of the game. Won game 4 in an even game where neither team generated much of anything. Got dominated by Columbus in game 5, generated less than a single expected goal by the time minutes were left in the game, and then had 3 quick goals at the end of regulation and the beginning of OT to take the series.

The Toronto-Columbus series was only 330 minutes, because of the abnormal best-of-5 format, and Columbus received +6.0 GSAx goaltending through that time. Through 330 minutes of the Tampa-Columbus series, Columbus had received +6.4 GSAx goaltending. Even if we're going by the idea that Tampa "figured it out" in the final 13 minutes of the series (instead of acknowledging that unsustainable runs are unsustainable and eventually run out on their own), they certainly didn't "figure it out" in the time that Toronto had to do so.

The biggest difference is that Tampa didn't have an Andersen to blow a 3-0 lead and lose a pivotal game 3.
Game 3?

What about game 5? Where we got SHUT OUT? Where the core couldn't generate shit?

I love how you have no problem finding these singular convenient scapegoats while completely omitting the core shitting the bed in the series deciding game. Maybe you'll be better off as a Pittsburgh Penguins fan.

Btw great way to frame Tampa's victories as them "barely" winning 1 goal games. They controlled the vast amount of play that series. They won in 5 games, there was no "barely" winning anything - they convincingly beat the team that we lost to, end of story. It hurts your ego too much to tell it as it is.
 
Game 3?
What about game 5? Where we got SHUT OUT? Where the core couldn't generate shit?
If Andersen doesn't blow the 3-0 lead in game 3, we win the series 3-1, there is no game 5, and you're talking about that Toronto-Columbus series like you're talking about the Tampa-Columbus series. Tampa didn't figure out Korpisalo and Columbus and breeze through the 1st round. They got shut down and generated nothing for long stretches in that series. They got dominated for most of game 5. They got stonewalled by Korpisalo quite a bit. In fact, with 7 minutes left in the Tampa-Columbus series, they were scoring at the same rate as Toronto. They squeaked out one-goal victories because Vasilevsky held them in, for example, 4+ OTs where Tampa couldn't score. In critical moments, when Tampa couldn't generate anything, when momentum shifted, when Korpisalo stood on his head, etc., Vasilevsky was able to hold things together.

Game 5 in our series was an overall lower-event game, as most series-deciding games are (especially so when going up against the best defensive team in a half-decade), but Toronto was the better team in that game, and the core did generate a decent amount of our chances. Unfortunately, Andersen let in a defenseman wrister from the point like 6 minutes into the game, and then killed the team's chances halfway through the 3rd when he let in a shot from a horrible angle to the side of the net by a rookie bottom-sixer. That's the kind of game Tampa goes into OT 0-0 and wins.
 
Reasons quickly become excuses when changes aren't made. It's these reasons that have led to them running back the core for years without any semblance of playoff success.
Reasons remain reasons until somebody mislabels them, and changes have been made. It's just not the specific change you want, because hockey executives take that step back, look at what's happened, look at potential options, take emotion out of it, and realize that such changes would not be beneficial to the team.
Ok...that bolded part is where you completely lose anyone who watches this team. We got outplayed in every single game but the 2nd one...it was a constant barrage of being stuck in our own end for long periods of time followed by flukey goals going by Vassey who played like shit.
I think if you go back and take an objective look, you'll find that's not true. That's emotion and score clouding your perception.
Both Toronto and Tampa had a number of dominating stretches, with Tampa's tending to be early in games, and Toronto's tending to be later in games.
We probably didn't deserve to win in 6, and we probably deserved it less than we deserved beating Florida, Tampa in 2022, Montreal, Columbus, and maybe even Boston in 2019, but the series was a lot closer than some want to admit.
I'll say it's certainly very illuminating to see people's differing reactions to Tampa's "it was 4-1" game relative to Toronto's in 2013.
Andersen his last 2 seasons here in the playoffs put up these numbers:

18/19- .922 SV % and 2.75 GAA
19/20- .936 SV % and 1.84 GAA

I'd say those are the stats of a goalie who played very well and could be considered a hot goalie, especially that 19/20 series. Then Campbell put up 1 very good playoff series in 20/21 with a .934 SV % and 1.81 GAA. 3 seasons in a row I'd say our goalies put up really good numbers but we still can't find ways to win those series. Last 2 years has been our worst goalie numbers with just under 900 SV % and a little over 3 GAA and we somehow won a series like that.
SV% can be misleading.
In 2019, we got +1.76 GSAx goaltending. That's pretty consistent with what our opponents got that year, but that's not a hot goalie.
In 2020, we got +0.74 GSAx goaltending. That's not a "hot goalie", and fell massively behind what our opponent received.
In 2021, we got +3.62 GSAx goaltending. I don't know if I'd call that "hot"; it's good, and closer to our opponent, but still about half of what our opponent received in that series, half of what Columbus received, and a quarter of what Florida received.

We won the series where we got around +1.5 GSAx relative to our opponent, which is the biggest goaltending advantage relative to our opponent that we've ever had in the playoffs.
 
Reasons remain reasons until somebody mislabels them, and changes have been made. It's just not the specific change you want, because hockey executives take that step back, look at what's happened, look at potential options, take emotion out of it, and realize that such changes would not be beneficial to the team.

I think if you go back and take an objective look, you'll find that's not true. That's emotion and score clouding your perception.
Both Toronto and Tampa had a number of dominating stretches, with Tampa's tending to be early in games, and Toronto's tending to be later in games.
We probably didn't deserve to win in 6, and we probably deserved it less than we deserved beating Florida, Tampa in 2022, Montreal, Columbus, and maybe even Boston in 2019, but the series was a lot closer than some want to admit.
I'll say it's certainly very illuminating to see people's differing reactions to Tampa's "it was 4-1" game relative to Toronto's in 2013.

SV% can be misleading.
In 2019, we got +1.76 GSAx goaltending. That's pretty consistent with what our opponents got that year, but that's not a hot goalie.
In 2020, we got +0.74 GSAx goaltending. That's not a "hot goalie", and fell massively behind what our opponent received.
In 2021, we got +3.62 GSAx goaltending. I don't know if I'd call that "hot"; it's good, and closer to our opponent, but still about half of what our opponent received in that series, half of what Columbus received, and a quarter of what Florida received.

We won the series where we got around +1.5 GSAx relative to our opponent, which is the biggest goaltending advantage relative to our opponent that we've ever had in the playoffs.
So the goalies averaging less than 2 GAA the entire series 2 years in a row isn't enough either for our superstars and high powered offence we're told we have? Or is that stat also misleading somehow?
 
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So the goalies averaging less than 2 GAA the entire series 2 years in a row isn't enough either for our superstars and high powered offence we're told we have? Or is that stat also misleading somehow?
Of course it is. And of course our defense can take 0 blame whatsoever either for that 3-0 collapse either. Freddy gave the team a shutout and 3 games over .920 in a 5 game series, if that's who you're blaming for not winning a 5 game series you just don't know shit about anything.
 
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So the goalies averaging less than 2 GAA the entire series 2 years in a row isn't enough either for our superstars and high powered offence we're told we have?
We were not able to overcome our goalies performing considerably worse than our opponent's goalies, even though we came pretty close. Over those 2 years and 12 games, our opponent's goalies saved around 8.5 goals more than ours. That's incredibly difficult and pretty unheard of for any team to overcome.
 
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