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Around the League 2020-21 Part 3, Trade Deadline Edition

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BigKing said:
Are only headshots predatory? Marchment is considered an all-time cheap shot guy but it was for low hits.

What does predatory even mean? Hit them when they aren't looking? Would Brown on Sedin be predatory since Sedin had no idea it was coming?
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That was a full body hit. Wilson goes for the head. Are you oblivious of the consequences of head injuries and how the league has been trying to eliminate them? How many times has Brown driven people's heads into the boards, punch unsuspecting opponents in the head when they're in vulnerable positions, and make full contact with a player's head?
 
BigKing said:
Are only headshots predatory? Marchment is considered an all-time cheap shot guy but it was for low hits.

What does predatory even mean? Hit them when they aren't looking? Would Brown on Sedin be predatory since Sedin had no idea it was coming?
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I would actually agree that early career Brown was a predatory or borderline-predatory hitter but it was also common with the times.

I'd argue he toned down a lot and he always controlled his emotions in a way Wilson never has.

Even in the context of this event there's a LOT that leads up to him 'seeing red' which is the issue.

Dustin Brown changed, Matt Cooke at least tried to change, Wilson is in the Torres category of 'can't-change' right now.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
Have you ventured beyond this forum?

Dustin Brown is seen as worse than Wilson.

nevertheless it's a false equivalence, we're not talking about hits in the course of play. Call me when Brown does ANYTHING after a whistle but smile like a goofy bitch.
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"On here" means HF Kings.

In no way is Brown seen as worse than Wilson. Twitter mob is sparking a referendum on "hockey violence" over Wilson. That comment supports what I'm saying though: this board would look just like HF Caps if Wilson was a King.

It isn't a false equivalence for this reason: Wilson's transgressions and the main reason why people want him gone is due to dangerous hits. That's his rap sheet and that is the thing that has injured players. Now people want to use this post-whistle incident as justification to throw him out of the league or levy a giant suspension mainly due to his rap sheet which, again, is defined by illegal hits during the course of play.

That's the slippery slope here: what happened v. the Rangers is mostly much-ado-about-nothing and would be a fart in the wind if it wasn't Wilson. You toss the book at a guy for a small punch and then a little scrum and what becomes of small punches and little scrums? It's a big boy sport and sometimes guys get hurt but you can't legislate out all of the passion or the sport will go to shit. There is a real baby-with-the-bathwater thing going on with the response to this incident which is concerning.

I'm not defending Tom Wilson over this incident: I'm defending hockey as I like it. I like a scrum in front of the net and I like passion. I don't want to see someone get hurt from a scrum but I also don't want to see someone get seriously hurt from a legal check. The funny thing is that 95% of HF Kings likes it too when it is the Kings showing fight or being involved in a game that has passion but are hive-minding it on this and getting caught up in the small picture (f*** Tom Wilson!) and not seeing the big picture (you can't levy a suspension on someone for a 2 minute roughing minor that causes no injury and then a consensual wrestling match with an unfortunate result) which sets a precedent that leads to the further neutering of the sport.
 
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BigKing said:
Dustin Brown has been suspended and fined multiple times in his career. Many of his hits would be described as "predatory in nature" by non-Kings fans much like everything Wilson does is by the "string up Wilson" crowd. Brown is revered on here by most while Wilson is the worst thing to happen to hockey.

If you go looking to throw enormous hits, you are going to hurt people sometimes. Wilson's biggest problem is that he will look for that blindside hit that is no longer tolerated. If he keeps doing that, this is the thing that will be the end of him. When/if that happens, go ahead and throw the book at him but you can't toss him out of the league because he might do something bad later on.
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And he changed how he hits as a result. That's the point.

Not only does Wilson not learn. He essentially gets supplementary discipline after returning.

So he'll put his hand on a stove, sees it burns him, then shove the cat's face on it.
 
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Ziggy Stardust said:
That was a full body hit. Wilson goes for the head. Are you oblivious of the consequences of head injuries and how the league has been trying to eliminate them? How many times has Brown driven people's heads into the boards, punch unsuspecting opponents in the head when they're in vulnerable positions, and make full contact with a player's head?
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Full body. Yes. Totally legal hit, I love it and can watch it on loop all day long.

Was it necessary? Did he have to make the hit? Does it make it predatory since Sedin didn't know Brown was there?

I'm not saying Brown is as dirty or dirtier than Wilson. It's actually wild that Brown has so many hits with so few suspensions and fines, although that would be different if he cut his teeth in this era v. the 00's. The point is that dirty is in the eye of the beholder and HF Kings has been defending Brown since he's our guy when it is obvious that many on here would be calling him the dirtiest player in the league if he was crushing players for the Ducks, Sharks or Coyotes instead of the Kings.
 
King'sPawn said:
And he changed how he hits as a result. That's the point.

Not only does Wilson not learn. He essentially gets supplementary discipline after returning.

So he'll put his hand on a stove, sees it burns him, then shove the cat's face on it.
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The change in style has a lot to do with the fact that he's near retirement age. But either way, we all bemoan the fact that Brown doesn't really hit anyone anymore. Now he's just a veteran voice who can score some on the PP.
 
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King'sPawn said:
And he changed how he hits as a result. That's the point.

Not only does Wilson not learn. He essentially gets supplementary discipline after returning.

So he'll put his hand on a stove, sees it burns him, then shove the cat's face on it.
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Except his most recent suspension was 2018 and he most likely should have been suspended for the hit on Schultz since he was a repeat offender, at least he should have been suspended if the DOPS cared about the players as much as everyone is clamoring for right now. I seem to remember HF Kings arguing against a suspension, yours truly included.

Tom Wilson makes that hit on Schultz and the hockey world would have lost their collective shit.

Regardless, if Wilson doesn't change and doles out another blindside head shot then, yeah, toss him. He'll deserve it. This incident was putting his hand back on the stove though no matter how many people wish it was.

Just to bring Pronger Physics in to play and probably annoy some people even more than I already am...Brown is fortunate he isn't four inches taller like Wilson or a lot of those "barely touching the chest or shoulder first" hits now become jaw first.
 
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BigKing said:
Full body. Yes. Totally legal hit, I love it and can watch it on loop all day long.

Was it necessary? Did he have to make the hit? Does it make it predatory since Sedin didn't know Brown was there?

I'm not saying Brown is as dirty or dirtier than Wilson. It's actually wild that Brown has so many hits with so few suspensions and fines, although that would be different if he cut his teeth in this era v. the 00's. The point is that dirty is in the eye of the beholder and HF Kings has been defending Brown since he's our guy when it is obvious that many on here would be calling him the dirtiest player in the league if he was crushing players for the Ducks, Sharks or Coyotes instead of the Kings.
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We've seen plenty of guys on opposing teams take liberties on the Kings, past and present. Torres on Stoll, Hedman on Clifford, Tkachuk on Doughty, Reaves on Kopitar, but none of us whine as much as Sharks fans have about Brown's hits on their precious players.

I also see a huge difference in big hits that cause damage versus a guy who is deliberately targeting a player's head. That does not belong in any sport.
 
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BigKing said:
"On here" means HF Kings.

In no way is Brown seen as worse than Wilson. Twitter mob is sparking a referendum on "hockey violence" over Wilson. That comment supports what I'm saying though: this board would look just like HF Caps if Wilson was a King.

It isn't a false equivalence for this reason: Wilson's transgressions and the main reason why people want him gone is due to dangerous hits. That's his rap sheet and that is the thing that has injured players. Now people want to use this post-whistle incident as justification to throw him out of the league or levy a giant suspension mainly due to his rap sheet which, again, is defined by illegal hits during the course of play.

That's the slippery slope here: what happened v. the Rangers is mostly much-ado-about-nothing and would be a fart in the wind if it wasn't Wilson. You toss the book at a guy for a small punch and then a little scrum and what becomes of small punches and little scrums? It's a big boy sport and sometimes guys get hurt but you can't legislate out all of the passion or the sport will go to shit. There is a real baby-with-the-bathwater thing going on with the response to this incident which is concerning.

I'm not defending Tom Wilson over this incident: I'm defending hockey as I like it. I like a scrum in front of the net and I like passion. I don't want to see someone get hurt from a scrum but I also don't want to see someone get seriously hurt from a legal check. The funny thing is that 95% of HF Kings likes it too when it is the Kings showing fight or being involved in a game that has passion but are hive-minding it on this and getting caught up in the small picture (f*** Tom Wilson!) and not seeing the big picture (you can't levy a suspension on someone for a 2 minute roughing minor that causes no injury and then a consensual wrestling match with an unfortunate result) which sets a precedent that leads to the further neutering of the sport.
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To the first boldfaced: I'm not sure it would. This board doesn't do much defending of its players when they DO actually cross the line, and only rarely do we even make noise on the main board over incidents (hell, 9 times out of 10 its started by a non-Kings fan). However it's few and far between, but even then, that's neither here nor there.

To the second, we will have to disagree heavily on the definition of "small punches and little scrums" but nevertheless I don't see why you're fighting so hard against the idea that a guy's "hockey character" is built on his body-of-work of which Wilson has quite one. You're attempting to separate 'in play' from 'post whistle' as if they're two different sports when it comes to action history.

To the third, it's a little insulting to assume that 'if you don't agree you don't like emotion in hockey.' I like Wilson's game. I like the emotion in hockey. I think it's a fast, borderline reckless paced game that WILL result in injuries regardless. I love guys like Brown, Wilson that typically play right on the edge--but that can also play the game. I love after whistle battles, especially when sticking up for a goalie. But another false equivalence here, people aren't getting their heads punched into the ice or choke slammed every play.

This isn't a one-off incident sparked by emotion like Fiala on Roy, this is a guy with a Dead-Sea-Scrolls long history seeing red after a buildup of emotion and taking it out on a face-down opponent and another helmetless opponent. If it were someone else I'd be like "damn, that's dangerous" and maybe be okay with the fine putting everything on record. But yes, since it's Wilson, it's "damn, this guy AGAIN?"

And it's strange that you have such a problem with people having a problem with that. I understand where you're coming from and I just disagree with you but I don't think you're a f***ing neanderthal for it. I don't want passion removed from hockey; I want gutless, from-behind bullshit removed from hockey and I KNOW you know I'm consistent on that stance. For what it's worth to you, if I have to separate the two I have far less a problem with the Panarin incident (results included) than I do the Buchnevich one.
 
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Ziggy Stardust said:
We've seen plenty of guys on opposing teams take liberties on the Kings, past and present. Torres on Stoll, Hedman on Clifford, Tkachuk on Doughty, Reaves on Kopitar, but none of us whine as much as Sharks fans have about Brown's hits on their precious players.

I also see a huge difference in big hits that cause damage versus a guy who is deliberately targeting a player's head. That does not belong in any sport.
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Well, I can agree on the difference in whining except for we were all incensed over the hit on Stoll since it was in the playoffs and the stakes were enormous. If Evander Kane blew out Vilardi's knee like Brown did to Hertl, this place would be on fire.

I can also agree that there is a difference between big legal hits that cause damage v. clear head shots. I just get caught up in the "predatory" thing because pretty much any forward with over 200 hits a season is out there looking to hit to hurt and not simply remove the man from the puck. That seems predatory to me so the next step is are they hitting to hurt legally or illegally. When it comes to this, people can shit on Wilson all they want because he's deserved the reputation.
 
BigKing said:
Well, I can agree on the difference in whining except for we were all incensed over the hit on Stoll since it was in the playoffs and the stakes were enormous. If Evander Kane blew out Vilardi's knee like Brown did to Hertl, this place would be on fire.

I can also agree that there is a difference between big legal hits that cause damage v. clear head shots. I just get caught up in the "predatory" thing because pretty much any forward with over 200 hits a season is out there looking to hit to hurt and not simply remove the man from the puck. That seems predatory to me so the next step is are they hitting to hurt legally or illegally. When it comes to this, people can shit on Wilson all they want because he's deserved the reputation.
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Because everyone saw it coming and he was a repeat offender--see?
 
FWIW lot of enforcers seem to be coming out against Wilson's actions, too. I mean take it with a grain of salt for obvious reasons but man, John Scott went off, Laraque, etc.

I dunno man maybe I'm naive.
 
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Dustin Brown would have a lot more respect league wide if he stood up to the consequences of his hits instead of avoiding them. His reputation was/is as a borderline dirty hitter who turtles from the reaction. He was coming in right after an era of really tough, hard hitting skilled power forwards who would always stand up for themselves and teammates when challenged. Brown never did that, he would skate away with that Urkle "did I do that" look on his face.

If he did drop them he would have been feared and respected. Instead he would do something vicious and go and hide. Players that took the kind of liberties he did used to have to take the receipt for their actions. Fans hated him for it. Brown was very much a part of the sea change from the old school NHL to the newer, nicer, league that forced the DoPS to step in.

Hell, I still don't respect him. Drives me crazy when people mention him and Dave Taylor in the same sentence.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
To the first boldfaced: I'm not sure it would. This board doesn't do much defending of its players when they DO actually cross the line, and only rarely do we even make noise on the main board over incidents (hell, 9 times out of 10 its started by a non-Kings fan). However it's few and far between, but even then, that's neither here nor there.

To the second, we will have to disagree heavily on the definition of "small punches and little scrums" but nevertheless I don't see why you're fighting so hard against the idea that a guy's "hockey character" is built on his body-of-work of which Wilson has quite one. You're attempting to separate 'in play' from 'post whistle' as if they're two different sports when it comes to action history.

To the third, it's a little insulting to assume that 'if you don't agree you don't like emotion in hockey.' I like Wilson's game. I like the emotion in hockey. I think it's a fast, borderline reckless paced game that WILL result in injuries regardless. I love guys like Brown, Wilson that typically play right on the edge--but that can also play the game. I love after whistle battles, especially when sticking up for a goalie. But another false equivalence here, people aren't getting their heads punched into the ice or choke slammed every play.

This isn't a one-off incident sparked by emotion like Fiala on Roy, this is a guy with a Dead-Sea-Scrolls long history seeing red after a buildup of emotion and taking it out on a face-down opponent and another helmetless opponent. If it were someone else I'd be like "damn, that's dangerous" and maybe be okay with the fine putting everything on record. But yes, since it's Wilson, it's "damn, this guy AGAIN?"

And it's strange that you have such a problem with people having a problem with that. I understand where you're coming from and I just disagree with you but I don't think you're a f***ing neanderthal for it. I don't want passion removed from hockey; I want gutless, from-behind bullshit removed from hockey and I KNOW you know I'm consistent on that stance. For what it's worth to you, if I have to separate the two I have far less a problem with the Panarin incident (results included) than I do the Buchnevich one.
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- We haven't had any reason to defend a Kings for three seasons now since none of them do a damn thing. Only thing was maybe MacDermid's suspension last year against Philly, something that I argued against. Back when the Kings were doing things, we were basically all right there to defend them. That's what fans do. Would we support all of Wilson's hits? No. Would we be defending him for this? I think we would 100%.

- We disagree on the severity of the incident so we can't really debate it. I see this as no big deal but see Wilson's head shots as a big deal: you are seeing this as a big deal because of Wilson's rap sheet which, again, is basically built on illegal hits and not little sucker punches or stick infractions.

- I'm not saying if you don't agree that you don't like emotion in hockey. I know for a fact that you love physical hockey. You were more jacked than anyone over the Lemieux/Manson fight and I'm the guy that provided the Kings with years and years of Kings fights for their website! What I am saying to everyone is "careful what you wish for". You want Wilson out of the league. Fine. Don't make this your hill to die on over it though because it sets a horrible precedent for what is and isn't allowed. Again, you see this as "heads being punched into the ice" and "choke slams" while I see a little punch that occurs throughout a regular season and then an unfortunate injury brought about by a guy engaging in an after whistle event with someone way out of his weight class.

I do not want anything that just happened to be removed from the game and, honestly, I don't think there is a fine levied if it wasn't Wilson. This isn't Brashear on Laperriere, Johnson on Beukeboom, Bertuzzi on Moore or Odjick on Harvey and Kasparitis. To me, that is chicken shit from behind stuff with serious intent while the Wilson punch is not an attempt to injure but is just a little message sending. It's these little things that lead to the temperature of a game rising and, inevitably, a more entertaining hockey game.

I'm not asking for some devastating cheap shot to make the game more exciting: especially with the Kings since they don't care if one happens. What is pissing me off about all of this though is something that I consider to be mostly benign in the grand scheme things being labeled as an "horrific act of violence" and this statement being accepted as fact, applauded by Twitter white knights and leading to bullshit like LeBrun having a discussion on "do we need a new normal in hockey?" New normal? The game has never been softer! A small punch and a wrestling match is leading to "do we need a new normal". That is why I'm not defending Wilson the player but rather the incident because I don't think it was anything crazy but it is being held up as something that was "horrific" solely because of who did it. You even said it yourself that you would think it was simply a dangerous event if it wasn't for Wilson being involved. That's the point. Baby with the bathwater.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
And it's strange that you have such a problem with people having a problem with that. I understand where you're coming from and I just disagree with you but I don't think you're a f***ing neanderthal for it. I don't want passion removed from hockey; I want gutless, from-behind bullshit removed from hockey and I KNOW you know I'm consistent on that stance. For what it's worth to you, if I have to separate the two I have far less a problem with the Panarin incident (results included) than I do the Buchnevich one.
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This is what's bizarre to me about this incident, it's guys like us that don't mind a bit of borderline rambunctious play that is born from emotion and I couldn't feel more opposite about the 2 incidences. With respect to your opinion, the punch on the shoulder is far more common and harmless stuff after the whistle when guys are hanging out in the crease with your goalie than when Wilson "sees red" and decides to go ham on Panarin when the opportunity presents itself. I cringe because of what could have happened given how dangerous it looked but a couple less pounds per square inch effort from Wilson and it's your average harmless take down after the whistle even with a helmet off. *Shrug* I guess that's why we're here to talk about it.
 
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