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Around the League 2016:World Cup Edition

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I dunno why everyone is so down, after the last two weeks the only question I have is how long until Justin Abdelkader is an LA King :sarcasm:

Edit: really though I think people are reading far too much into the results of a tournament considering up until the moment it started most were hypercritical of it being such a gimmick anyway.

The NHL season is a grind, not a best-on-best round robin/single elimination tourney. There is merit to what DL has done here in very recent history, it just obviously does not translate to the world stage. That doesn't mean this roster is perfect and it doesn't mean he's batting 1000 anymore, but as damacles has repeatedly said, anyone expecting us to suddenly trot out a team NA style team is smoking something amazing...1. you can't do that without a host of high draft picks, 2. starting that transformation would likely cost DL his own job, 3. if you're just going to go with a skill/speed team, you have to be the best at that to win. Look what happened when the Sharks hit the Penguins. Being skilled wasn't good enough anymore.

There is complete merit to DL's philosophy and Sutter's coaching. Hell I remember when the Kings were playing those not-so-great versions of the Flames and they were ALWAYS a hard game to win, that's what the Kings still are--they might not be talented enough to smoke you in a one-off game in december (similar to the round-robin of the world cup tourney), but they're gritty enough to beat the piss out of you over a longer series, while still good enough to be a 100-point team.

I understand the concerns, and I definitely think the golden age is behind us, and I ALSO think the other younger teams have closed the gap to where it's going to be a difficult year, but despite all that I'm pretty shocked at all the despair.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
I dunno why everyone is so down, after the last two weeks the only question I have is how long until Justin Abdelkader is an LA King :sarcasm:

Edit: really though I think people are reading far too much into the results of a tournament considering up until the moment it started most were hypercritical of it being such a gimmick anyway.

The NHL season is a grind, not a best-on-best round robin/single elimination tourney. There is merit to what DL has done here in very recent history, it just obviously does not translate to the world stage. That doesn't mean this roster is perfect and it doesn't mean he's batting 1000 anymore, but as damacles has repeatedly said, anyone expecting us to suddenly trot out a team NA style team is smoking something amazing...1. you can't do that without a host of high draft picks, 2. starting that transformation would likely cost DL his own job, 3. if you're just going to go with a skill/speed team, you have to be the best at that to win. Look what happened when the Sharks hit the Penguins. Being skilled wasn't good enough anymore.

There is complete merit to DL's philosophy and Sutter's coaching. Hell I remember when the Kings were playing those not-so-great versions of the Flames and they were ALWAYS a hard game to win, that's what the Kings still are--they might not be talented enough to smoke you in a one-off game in december (similar to the round-robin of the world cup tourney), but they're gritty enough to beat the piss out of you over a longer series, while still good enough to be a 100-point team.

I understand the concerns, and I definitely think the golden age is behind us, and I ALSO think the other younger teams have closed the gap to where it's going to be a difficult year, but despite all that I'm pretty shocked at all the despair.
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I'm in this camp as I only got into it once it started. But the players/coaches/management don't see it that way. I think the US team in the future will have a bunch of bright stars but Dean etc. really screwed up for this tourney. In the game against Canada, the team they were built to beat, they went down 2-1 and totally gave up. I'm obviously a TC fan but found it really uncomfortable to watch because of the lack of fight from the American team.

I think an overhaul of the entire management team is needed.
 
MsMeow said:
I'm in this camp as I only got into it once it started. But the players/coaches/management don't see it that way. I think the US team in the future will have a bunch of bright stars but Dean etc. really screwed up for this tourney. In the game against Canada, the team they were built to beat, they went down 2-1 and totally gave up. I'm obviously a TC fan but found it really uncomfortable to watch because of the lack of fight from the American team.

I think an overhaul of the entire management team is needed.
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I don't really disagree. I was impressed with the quality AND intensity of play and I think it magnified the mistakes with the US philosophy...but I think long-term that will be a good thing as they have to reflect on how this was mismanaged.

Omni Owl said:
Lombardi looks foolish right now, I'm pretty embarrassed for him.
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I'm not. I think it's a valuable lesson. But while i think his philosophy translates well to the NHL, and I admire the spirit of what he was trying to do, it seems like most people saw coming that the roster was poorly constructed for the actual tourney. It doesn't help that the U-23s were left out by default because I think that hurts the US more than Canada, but they probably weren't gritty enough to be selected anyway, haha.

I do think a lot of people are giving him a beating because they've been literally waiting for years to be right. If you have to wait for two Cups and a WCF to pass to go "LOL QUICK SUCKS AND DEAN LOMBARDI SUCKS," guess who the real winner is?

The out-and-out smugness from several of DL's detractors tonight is actually kind of impressive, it's like they've literally been saving it up for this exact moment for 4 years.
 
Steen contract done...


Frank Seravalli ‏@frank_seravalli 6m6 minutes ago

#stlblues announce a four-year extension for Alex Steen at $23 million (AAV of $5.75M). That takes him through his 36-year-old season.


and\



Frank Seravalli Retweeted gary lawless

Went back, looked again at numbers. Looks like Toews is 45-1-1 in international play. Loaded with superstars, yes, still an incredible run.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
I don't really disagree. I was impressed with the quality AND intensity of play and I think it magnified the mistakes with the US philosophy...but I think long-term that will be a good thing as they have to reflect on how this was mismanaged.

I'm not. I think it's a valuable lesson. But while i think his philosophy translates well to the NHL, and I admire the spirit of what he was trying to do, it seems like most people saw coming that the roster was poorly constructed for the actual tourney. .
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Sharks fan coming in peace.

The one thing I'd note is that his comments make it seem like he actually didn't learn anything from this whole process and result. On top of that, he belittled Kessel by saying he only wanted players who "cared". Because of this complete clusterf, I don't think he should be guiding team USA until he can learn why everyone knew this team was flawed and how to avoid the multiple major mistakes made at his level (Grit as a Strategy, Coaching Choice, Multiple Roster Decisions, etc.).

Kings will be fine and Lombardi's a great NHL GM. Anyone saying he's a bad one is wrong. But he completely messed up this tournament and deserves the criticism he's getting. My biggest gripe is actually him saying anyone who wasn't on the team didn't care... that's messed up and completely untrue.
 
Sleepy said:
Sharks fan coming in peace.

The one thing I'd note is that his comments make it seem like he actually didn't learn anything from this whole process and result. On top of that, he belittled Kessel by saying he only wanted players who "cared". Because of this complete clusterf, I don't think he should be guiding team USA until he can learn why everyone knew this team was flawed and how to avoid the multiple major mistakes made at his level (Grit as a Strategy, Coaching Choice, Multiple Roster Decisions, etc.).

Kings will be fine and Lombardi's a great NHL GM. Anyone saying he's a bad one is wrong. But he completely messed up this tournament and deserves the criticism he's getting. My biggest gripe is actually him saying anyone who wasn't on the team didn't care... that's messed up and completely untrue.
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Oh no, that's actually my point, if I was unclear--I'm hoping he learned FOR LA, it's clear he doesn't get that the same doesn't work for the world stage.

He made comments after our elimination last year and into the summer re: the new state of the league and rethinking things a bit so while I doubt he drifts far from the usual I think he's aware and this extra kick in the pants should be something that makes him heavily consider roster construction and philosophy (though those who like to say Lombardi is going for all gritz and no skill conveniently ignore moves like Sekera, Gaborik, Purcell, Versteeg, and on--the evidence is there that the roster has already started thinking about how to trade some possession and grit for some skill).
 
damacles1156 said:
Funny thing is,

People have been saying this, since the dead puck era of hockey. Yet, teams still win cups like that.
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Plenty of teams don't necessary fit that description though of "checking a team to death." I'd say dominance with the puck is what you see being displayed when you see teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit en route to their Cups.

I can name more examples as well, and you can say what the Kings have done is just as much of a "flavor of the month" style versus the skilled teams that have won Cups.

Ultimately there's no one style that wins you a Cup, it's about balance. And that's what the two biggest trades Lombardi has made at the trade deadline provided the team with in 2012 and 2014.

Remember what finally got the Kings over the hump to beat Chicago? They out scored them. It wasn't tight checking that won them that series. Hell, they played a pretty wide open style during their last run. That may have helped them a bit more this past year against the Sharks, but they no longer have the depth to pull that off. Especially not from the back end.
 
Bandit said:
Did Clarke forget his entire playing career? :)

Honest question: who actually decides who gets to be GM for these international compettitions? There's no "owners", so... ?
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I was thinking the same thing after ready that quote. It's fun to watch but in the end you still have to check and play defense, which at times was a problem for team NA.
 
kingsfan28 said:
I was thinking the same thing after ready that quote. It's fun to watch but in the end you still have to check and play defense, which at times was a problem for team NA.
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Me too. LOL @ caring what that d-bag has to say.
 
Clarke has a reputation of being a dirty player, but he was more of a Messier like center who you didn't want to mess with. He was also small and a playmaking center with skill. I think his reputation far exceeds his skills.

Having read books on Gretzky, Wayne himself has said that he patterned his trademark office behind the net after watching Bobby Clarke play.

Bobby Clarke wasn't a Guy Carbonneau or Brian Skrudland type center who focused on clutching and grabbing.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
I don't really disagree. I was impressed with the quality AND intensity of play and I think it magnified the mistakes with the US philosophy...but I think long-term that will be a good thing as they have to reflect on how this was mismanaged.



I'm not. I think it's a valuable lesson. But while i think his philosophy translates well to the NHL, and I admire the spirit of what he was trying to do, it seems like most people saw coming that the roster was poorly constructed for the actual tourney. It doesn't help that the U-23s were left out by default because I think that hurts the US more than Canada, but they probably weren't gritty enough to be selected anyway, haha.

I do think a lot of people are giving him a beating because they've been literally waiting for years to be right. If you have to wait for two Cups and a WCF to pass to go "LOL QUICK SUCKS AND DEAN LOMBARDI SUCKS," guess who the real winner is?

The out-and-out smugness from several of DL's detractors tonight is actually kind of impressive, it's like they've literally been saving it up for this exact moment for 4 years.
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It's a cycle.


Lombardi's legacy will be Two Stanley Cups, regardless of what he does from here on out. He will retire, or get fired. Should he get fired , and have a desire to GM still, another NHL team will scoop him up pretty quick, same with Darryl Sutter.

The Kings will have new coach\GM, four years into their tenure, if no success has been brought, folks will be branding them complete idiots.

It's a cycle
 
damacles1156 said:
It's a cycle.


Lombardi's legacy will be Two Stanley Cups, regardless of what he does from here on out. He will retire, or get fired. Should he get fired , and have a desire to GM still, another NHL team will scoop him up pretty quick, same with Darryl Sutter.

The Kings will have new coach\GM, four years into their tenure, if no success has been brought, folks will be branding them complete idiots.

It's a cycle
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But I think sometimes people forget that this is a business where you get hired to get fired. Look at the average tenure of GMs/coaches are the league.

I guess I'm saying I agree, I know people will brand GMs/coaches idiots, I just find it total folly when people insult guys like Lombardi or even like Lamoriello, Holland, guys that have tasted ultimate success before falling off. Calling them 'idiots' ignores what they've done.

In this case, Lombardi had a vision and stubbornly stuck to it. It's the same quality we have to some degree in Sutter. Love it or hate it, to me, at least they're not changing philosophies every two years--they've got a vision, and they adapt, but they've build an empire from the ground up with people they love, the support they need, and the philosophies they look for in a player; they might not be as successful EVER again, but they do have conviction in what they do, and as a fan who spent so many years wondering what direction we were taking, I can appreciate it.

...but it was as funny as it was depressing watching it get stomped on the world stage because we all knew how the Kings always did before reaching a seven-game playoff series.

Edit: related-- http://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/2...cup-of-hockey-2016-team-usa-los-angeles-kings
 
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Nobody is calling Dean or Darryl idiots (least not Kings fans), but their inability to adapt is what is concerning.

Nobody is suggesting the Kings play a completely different style and wipe the slate clean. The building foundation is there with Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Carter, Toffoli, Pearson, Muzzin, etc. Hopefully some guys from Ontario can work their way into that group.

What is frustrating to many is seeing Dean continue to regurgitate this nonsense about having players who care on his team. Really Dean? Didn't seem like they cared much given their on-ice performance. Not only that, but how the hell can you say that? If Kessel and Bobby Ryan don't care, they wouldn't be voicing their displeasure about being looked over.

And be honest, when was the last time Dean Lombardi made a great decision that helped the team? The Gaborik trade?
 
Not giving Lucic a huge deal was a great decision, frankly. His maneuvering to get out of the Richards problem ended up being pretty damn brilliant.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
Nobody is calling Dean or Darryl idiots (least not Kings fans), but their inability to adapt is what is concerning.

Nobody is suggesting the Kings play a completely different style and wipe the slate clean. The building foundation is there with Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Carter, Toffoli, Pearson, Muzzin, etc. Hopefully some guys from Ontario can work their way into that group.

What is frustrating to many is seeing Dean continue to regurgitate this nonsense about having players who care on his team. Really Dean? Didn't seem like they cared much given their on-ice performance. Not only that, but how the hell can you say that? If Kessel and Bobby Ryan don't care, they wouldn't be voicing their displeasure about being looked over.

And be honest, when was the last time Dean Lombardi made a great decision that helped the team? The Gaborik trade?
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You're not going to win them all. The Sekera trade widely made Chicago fans especially crap themselves--we were universally seen as having made the gigantic deadline move. It unfortunately didn't work out as it should have, but I still see that as a great idea. Now if your evaluation of 'great decision' is 'helped win a Cup,' that's going to be a narrow vision of success that makes 29 other organizations a failure. I agree that Dean hasn't had the SAME success he had in 2014 yet, I'm just saying I think his failures have been overstated.

I saw Dean sticking up for his Team USA players in the face of smug *******s like Ryan and Kessel showing exactly WHY they weren't on the team. Would their talents have helped? Almost certainly. Did they show their true colors upon the US failure? Yep. And I think Kessel is actually a better player than everyone gives him credit for and that his attitude is probably exaggerated, but he made his self-importance pretty clear imo. Disagree with DL all you want, he seemed to evaluate character pretty good there. Maybe bad for the world stage, but there will be no floaters taking shortcuts and being selfish on the Kings.

And if anything, I think dean and darryl HAVE shown the ability to adapt to a degree as evidenced by the Gaborik trade (remember all the "Gaborik is gonna get eaten by Sutter" talk at the time of the trade?), Purcell signing, even Sekera. These aren't 'gritz' style Kings, are they? Don't get me wrong, Scuderi playing so much is the big alarm bell that everyone is (rightfully, I'll add) focusing on, but we should look at some of the good with some of the bad. I fully expect to see some of that this year, too--i.e. Greene/Scuderi may be in the lineup, but so will Gravel; King will still play a big role, but Purcell is too. That's adaptation--we're not getting away from "Kings hockey," but are trading some of it for a bit of skill and pop.
 
DL had to make that Sekera trade, the team was on a crazy winning streak and looked like they were coming in hot for the playoffs. Its a shame he got injured, but that was a necessary trade. The Lucic deal was a disaster to me. DL didn't address the void left in the top 4 D or at 3C and gave up some significant pieces for 1 year of Looch (without the foresight to see he wasn't going to come back). Like I said, at least we didn't re-sign him. The Schenn/Lecavalier deal was also a solid move, especially Vinny.

I would've liked to see Kessel, Faulk, T. Johnson, and Andy Greene on the US roster. Those guys alone would have made a difference.
 
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