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Raccoon Jesus said:
There's mountains of evidence Clifford is a good player for his role. People just want to replace him because "hurrrr he's been here too long."

I can't think of how many stories we've seen over the years where guys are flat out intimidated by Clifford in the gym, he's an inspiration and a leader, and he's actually a damn good player for the 4th line. There are much worse guys in his role around the league and I'm not going over rosters again to prove it to people who are willfully blind.

Clifford provides play, culture, toughness, and stability. Maybe he's overpaid, I can get on board with that argument. Suggesting he's garbage or not an NHLer is tripe and frankly, as usual, out of touch with context of what NHL 4th liners look like.
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"Clifford provides play, culture, toughness, and stability"


So he's the toews of Fourth Liners.

Let me guess he also provides pride=passion=power?

Give me a break lol. The only thing intimidating by Clifford is his hairline.
 


Seems like the Canes got worked here, Cliff Pu didn't take the step forward that many guys do in their 19 going on 20 seasons, and those picks are nothing special.
 
Before the draft, I think I had Amadio+51st overall for Skinner in one of my mocks. Felt a little light, but looks like it was at least in the ballpark.
 
Kylo Ren said:
I'm still confused as to why Buffalo.
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Wasn't too bad a price. At least in theory gives Eichel a decent LW to work; Before the trade, Conor Sheary was arguably their top LW. Their lineup looks something like:

Skinner-Eichel-Reinhart
Sheary-Mittelstadt-Okposo
Sobotka-Berglund-Pominville
Larsson-Girgensons-(tbd)

If it doesn't work out, they can probably get a similar package of picks at the deadline.
 
Kylo Ren said:
I'm still confused as to why Buffalo.
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They've finished last overall in 3 of the last 5 years. They went from last, to a little better, and then back to last in that time. They're desperate to start progressing. Sort of the same thing as when the Kings got Doughty. Everything started to change around that 2008 draft. Within a calendar year, they got about 5 guys that ended up on the 2012 team. If Dahlin is as good as they say he is, they have to take advantage of his ELC. They missed their chance to do that with Eichel, but they have to start getting better. I don't know anything about this Pu, but they're giving up picks 2 years from now. Even if Skinner is a UFA, doesn't sound like too much to give up for a guy that averages 29g/54pts every 82 games.
 
Not sure about the value of Pu but he's a chart showing the percentages of merely making the nhl by round.

yost-draft1_53958.jpg


https://www.tsn.ca/playing-the-percentages-in-the-nhl-draft-1.206144
 
No doubt Clifford is popular in the locker room, but that doesn't translate to on-ice play. He is no Trevor Lewis, and he is only paid $200k less.
 
I see a lot of people in here again, undervaluing what guys like Clifford brings to the team....just flat out amazing.

I really suggest if you guys can, go talk to an ex-pro, even ex-junior who has a good head on their shoulder, and just ask them about team chemistry and what guys on the 3rd/4th line provide for the team and WHY most of them are so popular etc. There is a reason guys like Clifford, John Scott, Colin Fraser, Nate Thompson, Torrey Mitchell etc, are popular within the room, and it's not because they let Kopitar sit for 30 seconds ffs.
 
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Skinner will be worth more at the deadline than he is now. Lots of teams could have matched that package, but many would have to make room for him by disrupting their roster in other ways. At the deadline, cap space is banked so a lot more teams could afford him, driving up his value.

Buffalo essentially traded two 3rds, a 2nd, and a 6th for the 1st+ they will easily get for him at the deadline. It will likely be a low 1st, but that player has a far higher chance to be an impact player in the league than any of those other assets.
 
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I'll probably relent my position given how little it matters and how much he means to the locker room, but everyone knows what Clifford brings and what that amounts to on the ice has been outgrown by his salary and injuries. He is an okay veteran bottom 6, and I am sure he is beloved but what Clifford is isn't the best for what the Kings need to be in order to compete. We can't afford to pay a premium for an intangibles player on the fourth line. We don't have those luxuries anymore, we need to put more into speed and offensive output.

The Kings pay a premium for Clifford’s intangibles and responsible play. His $1.6-million cap hit is tied for the 404th highest in the league, and of the 403 players with higher AAVs, only three players – Jason Chimera, Matt Martin and Jori Lehtera – remained in the NHL all season and averaged less than Clifford’s 10:32 average time on ice per game
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Player evaluation: Clifford - LA Kings Insider
 
Wow Habs fans are touchy. I make a remark about drafting for need, not even knocking Kotkaniemi himself, and a few got very defensive.

I forgot that Bergevin has never made a mistake before.
 
The thing about Clifford to me is that even if you don't like him or subscribe to intangibles he has tangible above-average 4th liner results. Why go and dynamite a good thing just because? His salary isn't the difference between Cup or bust, his eventual 'replacement' is very likely a worse player or a rookie/ELC which is nice in theory but I'd rather have a Clifford-Brodzinski-Brodzinski than 3 Brodzinskis, and he's demonstrated he can be an effective--even impact--player in clutch situations repeatedly. And that's if you flat out ignore intangibles/toughness/character/whatever non-visible characteristic you want to pretend doesn't exist in hockey.

Tangibles and intangibles. You have to go out of your way to find a reason that Clifford doesn't have a spot on this roster, and it's likely not grounded in logic.
 
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Telos said:
I'll probably relent my position given how little it matters and how much he means to the locker room, but everyone knows what Clifford brings and what that amounts to on the ice has been outgrown by his salary and injuries. He is an okay veteran bottom 6, and I am sure he is beloved but what Clifford is isn't the best for what the Kings need to be in order to compete. We can't afford to pay a premium for an intangibles player on the fourth line. We don't have those luxuries anymore, we need to put more into speed and offensive output.



Player evaluation: Clifford - LA Kings Insider
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You point out two things that I think are really important-- 1. it really frankly matters very little in the grand scheme of things...it's not commensurate with the strange amount of hatred towards him here. Guess the Dwight King Firing Squad needed a new target. And 2. the biggest 'problem' is he's paid a few hundred thousand too much. You can say a lot worse about quite a few guys who rotated through, like Torrey Mitchell.

Also I feel like I'm taking crazy pills but when did it become meme that Clifford is slow? He's a good skater.

Much of the rest of that Clifford evaluation is glowing.
 
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Clifford isn't slow his speed is normal. But he sucks at everything else. Sure looked like a good second liner around his debut. But his game fell off a Cliff.
 
Sol said:
Clifford isn't slow his speed is normal. But he sucks at everything else. Sure looked like a good second liner around his debut. But his game fell off a Cliff.
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It's been a loooong time since that was the case and I doubt anyone is basing their analysis off it. I totally forgot about it, frankly. Maybe at one point he projected as a good middle-six power forward, but that dissipated when he couldn't score consistently. I do remember Clifford-Handzus-Simmonds absolutely terrorizing the Sharks in 2011 when Kopitar was dead and Williams had one arm...but he never really took off after that. Which is fine.

But I raw disagree that he "sucks at everything else." But I guess maybe I have expectations commensurate with his role, I dunno. He scores at a 5-goal, 15-20 point pace per year, is near the league lead in hits, out-possesses his competition, isn't a defensive liability, is a good skater, good on the wall in possession, and is a model human being and teammate. He plays a very simple game, but don't confuse that with an ineffective game.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
It's been a loooong time since that was the case and I doubt anyone is basing their analysis off it. I totally forgot about it, frankly. Maybe at one point he projected as a good middle-six power forward, but that dissipated when he couldn't score consistently. I do remember Clifford-Handzus-Simmonds absolutely terrorizing the Sharks in 2011 when Kopitar was dead and Williams had one arm...but he never really took off after that. Which is fine.

But I raw disagree that he "sucks at everything else." But I guess maybe I have expectations commensurate with his role, I dunno. He scores at a 5-goal, 15-20 point pace per year, is near the league lead in hits, out-possesses his competition, isn't a defensive liability, is a good skater, good on the wall in possession, and is a model human being and teammate. He plays a very simple game, but don't confuse that with an ineffective game.
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I know we disagree but I'm not saying people are basing him now off of how he was.


I thought he was really good with Simmonds and Handzus in the playoffs. They were the only line doing any kind of damage to the sharks. Simmonds and Clifford were great together. Sucks that Clifford didn't flourish really. Obviously he had the tools but some kind of injuries or whatever stunted him for sure.

Young Clifford is a really solid player fringe second liner today if he continued, or at worst a 3rd liner.

No doubt the injuries destroyed him.
 
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Telos said:
I'll probably relent my position given how little it matters and how much he means to the locker room, but everyone knows what Clifford brings and what that amounts to on the ice has been outgrown by his salary and injuries. He is an okay veteran bottom 6, and I am sure he is beloved but what Clifford is isn't the best for what the Kings need to be in order to compete. We can't afford to pay a premium for an intangibles player on the fourth line. We don't have those luxuries anymore, we need to put more into speed and offensive output.



Player evaluation: Clifford - LA Kings Insider
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That I can agree with, if we can move on from his 1.6 M salary to find a league minimum guy who can do the same thing, you have to.
 
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