Around the League '16-'17 Road Trip Blues Edition

[YP44]

Seems like a lot of excuse making around here for Dean's poor asset management.

You really can't compare the Carter and Gaborik deals to Lucic. Gaborik was a low risk high reward rental, and Carter was a hockey deal. Neither of those deals were going to bite us in the ass, not unless Carter got catastrophically injured and couldn't play out his contract.

Lucic was a desperation Hail Mary. There was no good outcome for that trade short of a third Cup. That's why it was a bad deal.

Dean has mismanaged every asset in his pocketbook since June of 2014. That's why the team is in the shape it is today. Yes, he was dealt some unfair cards, but he hadn't responded well.

It's clear as day that the better timeline for the Kings is keeping Williams at 3.5. "You gotta take a shot" doesn't excuse poor trading. We were "taking a shot" in 2012 and 2014, too, though with monumentally less risk.

That's how Dean used to GM - low risk high reward. But he lost sight of that somewhere between Richards falling off the wagon and Voynov hitting his wife.

Like BigKing said, spilled milk at this point.

I agree you cannot compare the Lucic deal to Carter and Gaborik. Carter was coming off an injury riddled season and it was evident he did not want to be on the team he was. Great buy low.
Gaborik was a bargin due to injury as well.
Lucic was a power winger in his prime with little to no risk of injury.

It's not that DL buys low risk high reward it's that if he sees a player he wants he is willing pay the market price to get that player. I like that in a GM.

 

[Butch 19]

Kings are in this situation, because they have drafted extremely poorly since 2011 (minus Pearson).

Since 2011, the Kings only have Pearson/Shore, that have played 100 NHL games. That is awful drafting, you have to nail some picks, even with your meager low end picks. Put it this way, 2010, was the last year the Kings actually drafted two roster players (Toffoli/Forbort).

That's the price you pay, for winning Cups, sometimes.

It's come home to roost.

yet Chicago keeps up their winning ways as they keep plugging in young players - that PRODUCE!

Even with 2 Cups, every season in the DL era seems to be a struggle just to get to #8 and squeak into the playoffs.

I'm tired of hoping they get hot at the right time.

 

[deeshamrock]

Guess I just don't expect the team to stay at a level to compete for a cup year after year. Kings had a good run, lost some guys now they need to wait on development. Don't understand this, "we spent all our asset" stuff. That's what you do to get over the top.

Lucic wasn't a desperation move. It was supposed to be paired with Voynov coming back. Kings effectively lost 2 top 4 PMD. That would have made a huge difference.

The draft picks don't matter all that much as the Kings have enough star talent on the team. They could use an upgrade at 3C, although Dowd's playing well and it may not be needed. Other then that just a RHD and Quick back and they're right back in this.

So I don't get this catastrophic stuff. They need a couple of depth players and maybe a rookie or 2 to make an impact. I'm surprised as hell that they're hanging onto a playoff spot with Quick out and Budaj as the number 1. What else do you really expect?

Edit: How would adding an 18-19 year old wing change anything for this team right now?

Disagree. Draft Picks always matter. Drafting well and growing your own talent is the backbone of any successful team. I've lived thru over 20 years of **** poor asset management by the Flyers, trading away draft picks with no map or gameplan, for that 'veteran player' that would make a difference in the playoffs. It usually doesn't. Swinging for the fences gets you more strikeouts than homeruns.Hexy is trying to right 2 decades of wrongs and it's not easy but finally a barren wasteland of a farm system is rich and flourishing , thanks to his trades, not giving up picks, and getting multiple 2nd round picks, etc. Although I totally disagreed with him passing on Bellows at 18th, the 40 goal scoring LW that the FLyers have needed for years, he defended that by stating they got 2 forwards for that price. he traded 18th pick and the 79th pick to the Winnipeg Jets in exchange for the 22nd pick and the 36th pick. Moving from 79 to 36 allowed them to get Pascal LaBarge, a smart center who skates well and has quick soft hands. I don't like Rubtsov, the player they took at 22nd. THey didn't need another 'smart, hi IQ shutdown center'. They have Couturier. But Hexy loves his grit and shutdown abilty. For me, that isn't a #1 center, i would prefer a scoring center. But he still got what he felt was a good deal, 2 forwards for the price of 1.


DL decisions over the past 2 years have not been good and the farm system and team's future will suffer as a result. Lucic was not a good trade, severely overpaying for a rental player is never a good idea.
And he should have drafted a number 1 center two to three years ago to groom to take over for Kopitar. Your #1 center is 29 and there is nobody in the pipeline to take over. You draft that kid when the number 1 is 26 or 27 and give that 18 yr old 3 to 4 years to grow his game in juniors and the AHL, then come up on the 2nd line for a couple of years to get his minutes in. THen that Number 1 is 32 or 33 and the kid is ready to take the reigns.

You need more than a handful of top players (star talent?) to have a deep run. DD, Quick, Kopi and Carter , and TT eventually are the top end players. Bottom 6 is average, no standouts. This team, historically, has depended on the system to work more than the players. But the league is evolving and young players are thriving and contributing. Not since 1981 have there been so many players under 23 with healthy points.

DL has spoken of the 'dynasty' he wanted to create , you don't do that by trading away prospects and draft picks. Much as I hate the Hawks, they seem to harness young talent and losing top veteran players doesn't create the wrinkles.

How would a top end 18 or 19 yr old winger change things? In SUtter's system, he might struggle. But most high end talented wingers ,when given a top center and minutes, thrive. Take a look at the teams around this league with forwards under 20 and the points they put up.

That 18 yr old playing with Kopi from Oct on, would have been an upgrade over what he's been saddled with and a center with his talent for passing , would have provided an outlet for goals. Those goals could have been difference makers and instead of 1 pt, Kings might have gotten 2.

Disagree on them being 'right back in this'. They are very lucky to be in a weak conference. Even if they are the final WC, they draw the Hawks in the first round. Unless by 'right back in this' you don't mean a deep run. I didn't have the Kings in a playoff berth even with Quick healthy.

 

[KingsFan7824]

And he should have drafted a number 1 center two to three years ago to groom to take over for Kopitar. Your #1 center is 29 and there is nobody in the pipeline to take over. You draft that kid when the number 1 is 26 or 27 and give that 18 yr old 3 to 4 years to grow his game in juniors and the AHL, then come up on the 2nd line for a couple of years to get his minutes in. THen that Number 1 is 32 or 33 and the kid is ready to take the reigns.

That's almost impossibly perfect though. The Kings lucked out getting Kopitar with the 11th pick to begin with. Where were the Devils and their new #1 defenseman as good as Niedermayer?

DL has spoken of the 'dynasty' he wanted to create , you don't do that by trading away prospects and draft picks. Much as I hate the Hawks, they seem to harness young talent and losing top veteran players doesn't create the wrinkles.

The Hawks have done great, but we have to wait and see how things go for them. In 2010, they won really early. They made the conference finals in 09, and won in 2010, while Kane and Toews were on their ELC's. Then had a cap purge, and Kane and Toews were only on their 2nd contracts. That's why they've got 3 Cups. Their 2nd cap purge after winning, so far it's resulted in a 1st round exist. The Kings didn't win the Cup until after both Kopitar and Doughty were into their 2nd contracts.

Lombardi can talk about dynasties, or being like Detroit the last 25 years, but that's not easy. There's a reason most teams don't have it happen, even though they want it to. Things happen. Voynov, Richards breaking down after a couple years, Brown. Chicago has a 37 year old Hossa leading their team in goals this year. Going by last year's number, with 13 goals in 64 games, he would have 7 right now. Whereas for the Kings, Gaborik was just a healthy scratch, and has 1 goal.

 

[Omni Owl]

Disagree. Draft Picks always matter. Drafting well and growing your own talent is the backbone of any successful team. I've lived thru over 20 years of **** poor asset management by the Flyers, trading away draft picks with no map or gameplan, for that 'veteran player' that would make a difference in the playoffs. It usually doesn't. Swinging for the fences gets you more strikeouts than homeruns.Hexy is trying to right 2 decades of wrongs and it's not easy but finally a barren wasteland of a farm system is rich and flourishing , thanks to his trades, not giving up picks, and getting multiple 2nd round picks, etc. Although I totally disagreed with him passing on Bellows at 18th, the 40 goal scoring LW that the FLyers have needed for years, he defended that by stating they got 2 forwards for that price. he traded 18th pick and the 79th pick to the Winnipeg Jets in exchange for the 22nd pick and the 36th pick. Moving from 79 to 36 allowed them to get Pascal LaBarge, a smart center who skates well and has quick soft hands. I don't like Rubtsov, the player they took at 22nd. THey didn't need another 'smart, hi IQ shutdown center'. They have Couturier. But Hexy loves his grit and shutdown abilty. For me, that isn't a #1 center, i would prefer a scoring center. But he still got what he felt was a good deal, 2 forwards for the price of 1.


DL decisions over the past 2 years have not been good and the farm system and team's future will suffer as a result. Lucic was not a good trade, severely overpaying for a rental player is never a good idea.
And he should have drafted a number 1 center two to three years ago to groom to take over for Kopitar. Your #1 center is 29 and there is nobody in the pipeline to take over. You draft that kid when the number 1 is 26 or 27 and give that 18 yr old 3 to 4 years to grow his game in juniors and the AHL, then come up on the 2nd line for a couple of years to get his minutes in. THen that Number 1 is 32 or 33 and the kid is ready to take the reigns.

You need more than a handful of top players (star talent?) to have a deep run. DD, Quick, Kopi and Carter , and TT eventually are the top end players. Bottom 6 is average, no standouts. This team, historically, has depended on the system to work more than the players. But the league is evolving and young players are thriving and contributing. Not since 1981 have there been so many players under 23 with healthy points.

DL has spoken of the 'dynasty' he wanted to create , you don't do that by trading away prospects and draft picks. Much as I hate the Hawks, they seem to harness young talent and losing top veteran players doesn't create the wrinkles.

How would a top end 18 or 19 yr old winger change things? In SUtter's system, he might struggle. But most high end talented wingers ,when given a top center and minutes, thrive. Take a look at the teams around this league with forwards under 20 and the points they put up.

That 18 yr old playing with Kopi from Oct on, would have been an upgrade over what he's been saddled with and a center with his talent for passing , would have provided an outlet for goals. Those goals could have been difference makers and instead of 1 pt, Kings might have gotten 2.

Disagree on them being 'right back in this'. They are very lucky to be in a weak conference. Even if they are the final WC, they draw the Hawks in the first round. Unless by 'right back in this' you don't mean a deep run. I didn't have the Kings in a playoff berth even with Quick healthy.

Excellent post. I do wonder if the departure of Hexy to the Flyers has hurt the decision making in management. The philosophy seemed to change after he left. Our pipeline is dismal right now, Amadio is the only forward who looks like he could be a decent player for us (Kempe is a longshot at this point, I'm very disappointed by that). I understand that these guys need some time in the AHL, but I do wonder if some of them spend too much time down there. A guy like Brodzinski could be a call up and contribute to the big club (though unlikely). The bottom line is we basically have to re-stock the prospect pool and weather the storm. I'm not sure if DL can accomplish that because he still seems attached to his Cup winning core, and our drafting has been subpar in the last few years.

Its better to re-start the cycle than to be average in the playoffs for 25 years, ala Detroit.

 

[YP44]

That's almost impossibly perfect though. The Kings lucked out getting Kopitar with the 11th pick to begin with. Where were the Devils and their new #1 defenseman as good as Niedermayer?



The Hawks have done great, but we have to wait and see how things go for them. In 2010, they won really early. They made the conference finals in 09, and won in 2010, while Kane and Toews were on their ELC's. Then had a cap purge, and Kane and Toews were only on their 2nd contracts. That's why they've got 3 Cups. Their 2nd cap purge after winning, so far it's resulted in a 1st round exist. The Kings didn't win the Cup until after both Kopitar and Doughty were into their 2nd contracts.

Lombardi can talk about dynasties, or being like Detroit the last 25 years, but that's not easy. There's a reason most teams don't have it happen, even though they want it to. Things happen. Voynov, Richards breaking down after a couple years, Brown. Chicago has a 37 year old Hossa leading their team in goals this year. Going by last year's number, with 13 goals in 64 games, he would have 7 right now. Whereas for the Kings, Gaborik was just a healthy scratch, and has 1 goal.

The thing wit Chicago is its seems like they keep getting college UFA's to go there. It's not like they are doing with drafting and developing as much as recruitment.

 

[deeshamrock]

Excellent post. I do wonder if the departure of Hexy to the Flyers has hurt the decision making in management. The philosophy seemed to change after he left. Our pipeline is dismal right now, Amadio is the only forward who looks like he could be a decent player for us (Kempe is a longshot at this point, I'm very disappointed by that). I understand that these guys need some time in the AHL, but I do wonder if some of them spend too much time down there. A guy like Brodzinski could be a call up and contribute to the big club (though unlikely). The bottom line is we basically have to re-stock the prospect pool and weather the storm. I'm not sure if DL can accomplish that because he still seems attached to his Cup winning core, and our drafting has been subpar in the last few years.

Its better to re-start the cycle than to be average in the playoffs for 25 years, ala Detroit.

I think so, I can see it in the amount of 'no' that comes from teams calling about trades. He will not give up a pick unless he's getting a good return and last year the Flyers had 10 picks in the 2016 draft. It feels good as a fan to finally have a prosperous farm system, something that has bothered me for years. When you read about a certain player being made available for a 'good prospect' as part of the deal, the Flyers were never bidders because they didn't have any.
That's changed now.

Hexy and DL worked together for many years, and I think DL trusted Hexy and he was DL's voice of reason, at times. I don't think it's a coincidence that DL's processes in the trade field have changed since Hexy left.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The thing wit Chicago is its seems like they keep getting college UFA's to go there. It's not like they are doing with drafting and developing as much as recruitment.

What college free agents are doing anything for Chicago? How many of them do much in the NHL at all? They certainly got one of the few undrafted European/Russian players that has made a big impact in the NHL. Most of the time they fizzle out too.

I think so, I can see it in the amount of 'no' that comes from teams calling about trades. He will not give up a pick unless he's getting a good return and last year the Flyers had 10 picks in the 2016 draft. It feels good as a fan to finally have a prosperous farm system, something that has bothered me for years. When you read about a certain player being made available for a 'good prospect' as part of the deal, the Flyers were never bidders because they didn't have any.
That's changed now.

Hexy and DL worked together for many years, and I think DL trusted Hexy and he was DL's voice of reason, at times. I don't think it's a coincidence that DL's processes in the trade field have changed since Hexy left.

We'll never know the exact relationship between one thing and the other. Hextall left in July 2013. He wasn't here for the 2nd Cup. He wasn't here when they lost Voynov. He wasn't here when Richards fell apart. He wasn't even here for Brown's first bad year.

If Hextall is here after 2014, does he make Lombardi buy Richards out? Maybe. But then Hextall was here when Lombardi re-signed Stoll and Penner after 2012.

As Lombardi has even said, getting there, and staying there, are two different things. On the way up, there are draft picks galore. On the way up, contracts aren't as difficult. Once you get there, it all gets more complicated. Should the Flyers win at some point, then we'll get a better sense. If Hextall is willing to make any tough choices that come about after a Cup, then maybe he was the check and balance in the front office.

 

[deeshamrock]

What college free agents are doing anything for Chicago? How many of them do much in the NHL at all? They certainly got one of the few undrafted European/Russian players that has made a big impact in the NHL. Most of the time they fizzle out too.



We'll never know the exact relationship between one thing and the other. Hextall left in July 2013. He wasn't here for the 2nd Cup. He wasn't here when they lost Voynov. He wasn't here when Richards fell apart. He wasn't even here for Brown's first bad year.

If Hextall is here after 2014, does he make Lombardi buy Richards out? Maybe. But then Hextall was here when Lombardi re-signed Stoll and Penner after 2012.

As Lombardi has even said, getting there, and staying there, are two different things. On the way up, there are draft picks galore. On the way up, contracts aren't as difficult. Once you get there, it all gets more complicated. Should the Flyers win at some point, then we'll get a better sense. If Hextall is willing to make any tough choices that come about after a Cup, then maybe he was the check and balance in the front office.

Good point and I finally think that the Flyers are going in the right direction, thanks to Hexy's drafting and ridding the team of some bad contracts and cap issues. I think they are still 3 years or so out from being a legit contender, but they are trending in the right direction.

And you're right on the tough decisions. 10 expiring contracts this year, including Ghost. But 2 years from now, Wayne Simmonds will need a new deal and he'll be 30. Can't see Hexy giving Simmonds, as much as the Flyers and Fans love him, an LTC for 7 to 8M . Hexy has stated he won't overpay for older players. And given Giroux and VOracek are also approaching 30 and making 17M between them, you have to draw a line somewhere . So that might be a tough decision as early as next summer, if he decides to trade him before the current contract runs out. That same year, Prorov and Konecky, among others will also need new contracts.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think so, I can see it in the amount of 'no' that comes from teams calling about trades. He will not give up a pick unless he's getting a good return and last year the Flyers had 10 picks in the 2016 draft. It feels good as a fan to finally have a prosperous farm system, something that has bothered me for years. When you read about a certain player being made available for a 'good prospect' as part of the deal, the Flyers were never bidders because they didn't have any.
That's changed now.

Hexy and DL worked together for many years, and I think DL trusted Hexy and he was DL's voice of reason, at times. I don't think it's a coincidence that DL's processes in the trade field have changed since Hexy left.

Maybe so, but let's not pretend the teams are in the same situation. The Kings coming off two cup victories, low on prospects, and trying to stay competitive while Hexy gets a stocked cupboard with tradeable assets and carte blanche to make the team in an image he likes.

That's not to say Hextall isn't fantastic or that he didn't help DL, but it's not like he's left with schmucks in Futa et. al., it's just really really freaking hard to stay competitive after winning cups, especially when many key depth players just flame out unceremoniously in unconventional ways (particularly Richards, Voynov, but also Stoll, Bartosak, etc.).

 

[damacles1156]

yet Chicago keeps up their winning ways as they keep plugging in young players - that PRODUCE!

Even with 2 Cups, every season in the DL era seems to be a struggle just to get to #8 and squeak into the playoffs.

I'm tired of hoping they get hot at the right time.

Which is why Futa/Staff need to draft better.

 

[kingsfan28]

Which is why Futa/Staff need to draft better.

I agree, especially in the skill department. Looking at some of our prospects, not many stand out as top 6 material. Most are bottom 6r's and the like , but hey, they have a ton of character.

 

[Kingspiracy]

I agree, especially in the skill department. Looking at some of our prospects, not many stand out as top 6 material. Most are bottom 6r's and the like , but hey, they have a ton of character.

Yeah, LA usually seem to draft character and size, It would be nice to see some speedy dangly sniper from russia drafted in the 1st rnd for a change

 

[Trolfoli]

never mind

 

[Trolfoli]

never mind

 

[Trolfoli]

never mind

 

[deeshamrock]

Maybe so, but let's not pretend the teams are in the same situation. The Kings coming off two cup victories, low on prospects, and trying to stay competitive while Hexy gets a stocked cupboard with tradeable assets and carte blanche to make the team in an image he likes.

That's not to say Hextall isn't fantastic or that he didn't help DL, but it's not like he's left with schmucks in Futa et. al., it's just really really freaking hard to stay competitive after winning cups, especially when many key depth players just flame out unceremoniously in unconventional ways (particularly Richards, Voynov, but also Stoll, Bartosak, etc.).

No, he didn't, rather the opposite, He inherited a team with a barren, depleted farm system and not many trade able assets. And numerous bad contracts. He had to rebuild from the ashes of the ruin Homer left the team in. And thanks to Homer/Snider mismanagement, it will take years to undo that damage, but he's headed in the right direction.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No, he didn't, rather the opposite, He inherited a team with a barren, depleted farm system and not many trade able assets. And numerous bad contracts. He had to rebuild from the ashes of the ruin Homer left the team in. And thanks to Homer/Snider mismanagement, it will take years to undo that damage, but he's headed in the right direction.

The point remains the team situations are completely different.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Not everyone gets a Panarin dumped into their laps.

 

[yankeeking]

"DL has spoken of the 'dynasty' he wanted to create , you don't do that by trading away prospects and draft picks. Much as I hate the Hawks, they seem to harness young talent and losing top veteran players doesn't create the wrinkles ".

this is funny because since 2012 the hawks have a grand total of 5 games from draft picks still in their system and 32 more from TT they had in to make the cap dump trade

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Not everyone gets a Panarin dumped into their laps.

Kings shoulda drafted him. He wasnt an unknown coming out of nowhere. I had him in my top 60 in consevutive years when i was doing my draft rankings (ie had time to get viewing on alot of players). He tore up KHL at a really young age. Still boggles my mind no one drafted him. As a russian KHLer the drafting team holds their rights indefinately, might as well take the talented russian over the mediocre 7th round "normal" selections even if might not come over for a while (almost all that have the talent try NA at least once at some point).

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Kings shoulda drafted him. He wasnt an unknown coming out of nowhere. I had him in my top 60 in consevutive years when i was doing my draft rankings (ie had time to get viewing on alot of players). He tore up KHL at a really young age. Still boggles my mind no one drafted him. As a russian KHLer the drafting team holds their rights indefinately, might as well take the talented russian over the mediocre 7th round "normal" selections even if might not come over for a while (almost all that have the talent try NA at least once at some point).

Did not know that part. Is that still the case? I could have sworn it was only till they were 25 or something

 

[BigKing]

snippped

So really I don't see how a prospect right now would help? As the Kings likely only have a handful of years to chase to chase the cup, who cares if a prospect wasn't drafted that won't make a major impact on the roster before the window is shut. Don't confuse young guys getting shots on teams that aren't very good vs a Kings team that has Sutter coaching and plenty of vets up front.

It's just not that big of a deal.

Let's reverse the saying of "close a door and a window opens" just so I can reply to the above with:

"When a window shuts, a door opens"

Are the Kings supposed to only be competitive while the key members of the Cup teams are productive and then go back to 40 years of being dog ****?

That prospect doesn't help the team this season. No problem with that line of thinking; however, that prospect picks up the slack for said key members as they decline or, even better, injects much needed scoring talent while Carter et al are still producing: possibly as early as next season.

It is beneficial to the team to have a strong prospect pool. It is pretty much the entire basis for the Kings winning two titles. Homegrown talent that remained Kings and then having a deep enough pool to be able to pull the trigger on Richards and Carter.

I have no problem with being behind the all-in moves that DL made; however, I do not agree with the sentiment that losing a high first for zero results is not that big of a deal: especially in a salary cap world.

Let's face it...Lucic was like a night out drinking for DL. Lots of fun looking forward to the night, then the night got going and it was great with drinks flowing freely via the credit card. Unfortunately, too many drinks were purchased and consumed to the point where DL wound up passed out in his own vomit on the bathroom floor of the after party mere minutes after walking in the door. Now he's dealing with a hangover and, more importantly, a maxed out credit card that carries with it an inability to go out drinking again as he only has barely enough money to pay his existing rent and Netflix. That Netflix is important as he isn't going to be doing jack **** for a while except sitting at home and re-watching Narcos over and over hoping that it will somehow be just as good the sixth time he watches as it was the first few times.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Did not know that part. Is that still the case? I could have sworn it was only till they were 25 or something

Theres no clear language in cba to deal with federations that refuse to sign a transfer agreement. Russia afaik are the last holdout from european federation revolt against the nhl from the past decade. Now it could be that they expire at 27 (ufa age) but as far as i can tell thatd be the earliest. Indefinately is what i hear most often. Still that means youd have 9 years to get them signed minimum. Compared to odds a 7th makes it your better off taking a flyer on a guy with high skill but has no intention to come over at the time. These are kids, lots can change with them between 17-20 and 22-27.

For reference, rights expire in 4 years for europeans playing in a league affliated with a federation that has a valid transfer agreement.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Theres no clear language in cba to deal with federations that refuse to sign a transfer agreement. Russia afaik are the last holdout from european federation revolt against the nhl from the past decade. Now it could be that they expire at 27 (ufa age) but as far as i can tell thatd be the earliest. Indefinately is what i hear most often. Still that means youd have 9 years to get them signed minimum. Compared to odds a 7th makes it your better off taking a flyer on a guy with high skill but has no intention to come over at the time. These are kids, lots can change with them between 17-20 and 22-27.

For reference, rights expire in 4 years for europeans playing in a league affliated with a federation that has a valid transfer agreement.

So how does this work with, for example, Prokhorkin versus Dergachyov? Do we still have Porkins' rights? And does that mean we keep Dergachyov's rights until whenever as well (assuming yes here).