Speculation: Armchair GM - Offseason Thread (Summer Edition)

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thebus88

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In theory it’s great, when you have the personnel.

Personally I think choosing a lineup based on which way a person shoots is wrong. It can or should be a final determining factor, that’s it.

Playing Peeke on the right side over Bean just because he’s right handed, to me, is no different to playing Boqvist on the right side next to Werenski, ahead of and instead of Provorov.
 

Jive Pawnbroker

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I dont think hes as good offensively. I think he can get the puck moving the right direction but in the offensive zone hes not as dangerous. I would like to see him in Babcocks system though. I think the Bean-Gudbranson pair would look better in a new system.
Has anyone here figured out what Larsen's defensive system was? I think it was a hybrid between the Keystone Kops and a Benny Hill Yackety Sax skit but I'm no expert on these things.
 

thebus88

19/20 Columbus Blue Jackets: "It Is What It Is"
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I dont think hes as good offensively. I think he can get the puck moving the right direction but in the offensive zone hes not as dangerous. I would like to see him in Babcocks system though. I think the Bean-Gudbranson pair would look better in a new system.

I still think Jenner is the most underrated to too many fans on here. Acting like we are in trouble if hes in the top 6 is a joke
Pure skill/pure shooting, yeah, Boqvist is better than Bean. I think Bean is a MUCH smarter player though, more than Boqvist and much more than he gets credit for, which literally can make him MORE effective of a player on the ice. People seemingly forget that Bean looked better than both Boqvist/Werenski on the PP for a time.

“Offensive skills” obviously aren’t what’s holding Boqvist back. Again, this team needs to still focus more on defense, and that’s Boqvist’s biggest question mark, and ultimately why I’d play Bean over Boqvist. To be clear, I’d play Boqvist over Peeke.

Jenner (OG Redundanteer) is definitely up there and the length of time he has been there and treated a certain way by many just adds to the issue also. But, acting like Bean isn’t even an NHL player is ridiculous, and that’s essentially what people are saying, whether up front, or when saying he doesn’t have a spot on 1 of the worst defensive teams in the league, before the new acquisitions.
 
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thebus88

19/20 Columbus Blue Jackets: "It Is What It Is"
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Has anyone here figured out what Larsen's defensive system was? I think it was a hybrid between the Keystone Kops and a Benny Hill Yackety Sax skit but I'm no expert on these things.

Scapegoat System

People treat Larsen as if he has control over what the players do on the ice. Or that he ultimately has control over what guys are even ON the ice.

Do some of you guys think his directive’s and system was for these guys to literally just play bad and make decisions NHL players shouldn’t make??
 
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Marioesque

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Scapegoat System

People treat Larsen as if he has control over what the players do on the ice. Or that he ultimately has control over what guys are even ON the ice.

Do some of you guys think his directive’s and system was for these guys to literally just play bad and make decisions NHL players shouldn’t make??

Many of them were not NHL players last season. But Larsen wasn't in control of injuries or the quality of players he had available.
 
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stevo61

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In theory it’s great, when you have the personnel.

Personally I think choosing a lineup based on which way a person shoots is wrong. It can or should be a final determining factor, that’s it.

Playing Peeke on the right side over Bean just because he’s right handed, to me, is no different to playing Boqvist on the right side next to Werenski, ahead of and instead of Provorov.
Yeah I was more reminding people how much he likes LHD-RHD. Its why I can see Werenski-Severson Provorov-Boqvist/Peeke Bean-Gudbranson
 

Longtime Local

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Scapegoat System

People treat Larsen as if he has control over what the players do on the ice. Or that he ultimately has control over what guys are even ON the ice.

Do some of you guys think his directive’s and system was for these guys to literally just play bad and make decisions NHL players shouldn’t make??
Almost like people treat him as if he is the coach of a professional hockey team!
 

cbjthrowaway

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Jul 4, 2020
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Scapegoat System

People treat Larsen as if he has control over what the players do on the ice. Or that he ultimately has control over what guys are even ON the ice.

Do some of you guys think his directive’s and system was for these guys to literally just play bad and make decisions NHL players shouldn’t make??
setting aside for a minute that the head coach does, in fact, determine who is on the ice and what system they play (how their coverage is structured, how their breakouts are structured, etc.)…

larsen's issue wasn't his system, it was his inability to implement/teach that system, run practices effectively and prepare his players.

we heard all year long that the new system was, in theory, simple. but we also saw constant breakdowns in coverage and failings to sustain possession – with every player on the roster – and heard whispers that larsen's practices were a joke, lacking structure and direction.

you can have the best system in the world, but if the players don't prepare well or practice it enough to be able to execute it seamlessly in the fastest-paced league in the world, you are not going to win very many games. that stuff all falls on the coach.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

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setting aside for a minute that the head coach does, in fact, determine who is on the ice and what system they play (how their coverage is structured, how their breakouts are structured, etc.)…

larsen's issue wasn't his system, it was his inability to implement/teach that system, run practices effectively and prepare his players.
Agreed. It's not scapegoating, it's "there's plenty of responsibility to go around."
 

cbjthrowaway

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They made 3 major moves for right D plus drafted another right D in the second round.
the three moves you're talking about were:
  1. signing the best free agent on the market (hamilton)
  2. trading a small roster player for a bigger one at the same position (smith for marino)
  3. drafting a guy with a high pick (nemec)
columbus made pretty much the exact same series of moves:
  1. signing gaudreau
  2. trading atkinson for voracek
  3. drafting kent johnson
shortly after, they traded bjorkstrand. was it all part of some long-running plan to get rid of him? of course not.

likewise, none of the moves the devils made were meant to force severson out, but that ended up happening as a result of sheer dumb luck:
  • three lottery wins in five years
    • 2022: 5th to 2nd (nemec – their in-house severson replacement)
    • 2019: 3rd to 1st (hughes)
    • 2017: 5th to 1st (hischier)
  • jesper bratt popping off and turning into a superstar overnight
  • pre-breakout contracts for hughes + hischier working out
  • vitek vanacek going from career backup to elite goalie
  • andrew brunette becoming available as an assistant right after being a jack adams finalist
  • devils going from rebuilder to contender right as timo meier hit the trade market
that's not to say that it didn't make sense for them to let him walk (the money for bratt/meier needed to come from somewhere) but that's much different than saying they wanted to get rid of the guy.
 

cbjthrowaway

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Wow, this is really annoying. I don't like the Devils anymore.
this is also why so much of the severson discourse – the "jersey got way better when they cut severson's ice time" stuff – bothers the hell out of me.

the devils didn't go from bottom-five team to cup contender because severson played 20 minutes a night instead of 22. it was all just five years' worth of dumb luck coalescing into a juggernaut.

not to mention that the whole narrative there ignores that severson was still top four in ATOI among their defensemen (barely behind #3) and put up elite underlying numbers while paired with brendan smith of all people.

like… guys, he's good. and he's a blue jacket now. you're not the one paying his contract. we're allowed to be happy about stuff sometimes.
 

Monstershockey

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Scapegoat System

People treat Larsen as if he has control over what the players do on the ice. Or that he ultimately has control over what guys are even ON the ice.

Do some of you guys think his directive’s and system was for these guys to literally just play bad and make decisions NHL players shouldn’t make??
I think Larsen was just a stop gap to cover until they could get someone they wanted more. I don't think he is as bad a coach as was shown. His first year wasn't bad, and he had solid experience as a head coach in the AHL. People would have been fine with Vincent, yet Larsen was a better coach in the A. He probably should have moved on when Torts and Shaw did, but I can't blame him for wanting the HC experience. Don't know if it helped or hurt him, but given a better situation, I think he could be a decent coach.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

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this is also why so much of the severson discourse – the "jersey got way better when they cut severson's ice time" stuff – bothers the hell out of me.

the devils didn't go from bottom-five team to cup contender because severson played 20 minutes a night instead of 22. it was all just five years' worth of dumb luck coalescing into a juggernaut.
Right. Devils didn't get better because they cut Severson's ice time, they got better because they had better players and didn't need Severson to play as much.
 

koteka

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the three moves you're talking about were:
  1. signing the best free agent on the market (hamilton)
  2. trading a small roster player for a bigger one at the same position (smith for marino)
  3. drafting a guy with a high pick (nemec)
columbus made pretty much the exact same series of moves:
  1. signing gaudreau
  2. trading atkinson for voracek
  3. drafting kent johnson
shortly after, they traded bjorkstrand. was it all part of some long-running plan to get rid of him? of course not.

likewise, none of the moves the devils made were meant to force severson out, but that ended up happening as a result of sheer dumb luck:
  • three lottery wins in five years
    • 2022: 5th to 2nd (nemec – their in-house severson replacement)
    • 2019: 3rd to 1st (hughes)
    • 2017: 5th to 1st (hischier)
  • jesper bratt popping off and turning into a superstar overnight
  • pre-breakout contracts for hughes + hischier working out
  • vitek vanacek going from career backup to elite goalie
  • andrew brunette becoming available as an assistant right after being a jack adams finalist
  • devils going from rebuilder to contender right as timo meier hit the trade market
that's not to say that it didn't make sense for them to let him walk (the money for bratt/meier needed to come from somewhere) but that's much different than saying they wanted to get rid of the guy.
I love this post because it allows me to make my main criticism of Jarmo - he is more of a reactor than a planner. Part of that is the hand he has been dealt over the years, but he has built his reputation more based on how he has reacted to situations than making a plan, sticking to it, and seeing it through.

- With 2 years until Severson was a free agent, New Jersey signed Dougie Hamilton. The gave him a contract with a cap hit of $9 million. (Many people thought that was a mistake.) But they signed him with a contract where he was going to be the #1 RD, at least for the first several years of the contract.

- With 1 year until Severson was a free agent, New Jersey traded for John Marino. He had 5 years left on his contract. Additionally NJ used the second overall pick on Nemec and additionally used a 2nd round pick on Seamus Casey.

I don’t know when New Jersey decided that Severson wasn’t core, but it was at least 1 year ago and possibly 2 years ago. They obviously were upgrading the right D position. Was there luck involved? There often is. They moved up a few spots in a draft and were able to secure Nemec. But is interesting that they went right D again. Anyway, they have committed serious money and assets to rebuild their right side.

Compare that with Bjorkstrand, who you have now brought up. In Jan 2021 Bjorkstrand was signed to a new contract. It certainly looked like Jarmo didn’t want to trade him then. In fact, it wasn’t until Jarmo signed Gaudreau that it even became a possibility. All indications were that we hadn’t even planned on targeting Gaudreau until Gudbranson told Nash that we should go after Gaudreau. There was no master plan that Bjorkstrand wasn’t core with two years of moves looking to replace him culminating with acquiring Johnny Hockey. It was literally. “Oh crap, we got this great guy. What do we do now to be cap complaint?” Jarmo reacted and decided his best bet was to move Bjorkstrand. Many disagreed with that move, mainly because it didn’t seem to be based on any sort of sound logic.

So I don’t know what argument you are trying to make. But it does let me raise what has made we want to move on from the current regime.
 

koteka

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Right. Devils didn't get better because they cut Severson's ice time, they got better because they had better players and didn't need Severson to play as much.
They got these better players because they targeted better right defensemen because they decided what they wanted the team to look like and it wasn’t something that included Severson long term. If they were happy with Severson maybe they still sign Hamilton, but they don’t trade for Marino when they could have used assets for a goalie upgrade or they don’t add Nemec when they could have traded back or added a guy like Cooley. There is every indication that it was Jersey that was cool with moving on and not Severson trying to get the best contract he could in free agency. My evidence that Severson was not trying to get to free agency is he never went to free agency.
 

VT

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@cbjthrowaway , some things:

1. Hamilton wanted to play in Devils and they have free salary cap.
2. They drafted 2x1OA (Hughes and Hischier) and 1x2OA (Nemec)
3. Jesper Bratt is a "superstar" only thanks to Hischier and Hughes. Btw, this "superstar" never had GP and more than 32 goals.
4. Hischier played 81 games, Hughes played 78 games and Bratt played 82 games, Hamilton played 82 games, more stats here: New Jersey Devils at eliteprospects.com
5. We had Laine, Atkinson, Bjorkstrand, Nyquist but we didn't have a playmaker, so Jarmo must get him.
6. Look at our next injuries.
7. Vaneček is an average goalie, but a good defense is in the front of him. Do you think his stats would be similar here?
8. We never traded a top center before Fantilli, Johnson can be a winger, Sillinger is maximum a second line center, on the other side, Devils yes.

Without factoring and comparing all this, your advantages are worth little.
 
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cbjthrowaway

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I love this post because it allows me to make my main criticism of Jarmo - he is more of a reactor than a planner. Part of that is the hand he has been dealt over the years, but he has built his reputation more based on how he has reacted to situations than making a plan, sticking to it, and seeing it through.
the problem with this particular comparison (jarmo vs fitzgerald) is that most of new jersey's core players are holdovers from the ray shero era.

fitzgerald took over a team that had just won two draft lotteries just as those players were about to break out, finished in the bottom-five, landed the best free agent on the market anyway, then had another bottom-five year and lucked into another lottery win, landing them nemec.

he's made some very good moves, but the heavy lifting has been done by a ton of just absolutely stupid dumb luck. it's a flawed comparison from the jump.

- With 2 years until Severson was a free agent, New Jersey signed Dougie Hamilton. The gave him a contract with a cap hit of $9 million. (Many people thought that was a mistake.) But they signed him with a contract where he was going to be the #1 RD, at least for the first several years of the contract.
signing hamilton was/is inarguably good for new jersey. that said, hamilton…
  • was a 28-year-old RHD coming off a career year on a very strong team
  • was not the #1 RHD on that very strong team
  • was signed for maximum term, likely to become burdensome in the last few years
  • was joining a team that was in the bottom-five the year prior
literally all of those points also apply to damon severson. (not saying he's as good as hamilton, but hamilton is making 50% more)

again, the hamilton signing is good! but you can't point to the severson deal as evidence that jarmo is a trash GM, then turn around and say fitzgerald is a genius GM for giving out a 50% more expensive (AAV) version of the exact same deal to a player coming off of nearly identical circumstances.

- With 1 year until Severson was a free agent, New Jersey traded for John Marino. He had 5 years left on his contract. Additionally NJ used the second overall pick on Nemec and additionally used a 2nd round pick on Seamus Casey.
the marino trade was simply a rebuilding team adding surplus value, since pittsburgh needed to shed some cap. the nemec pick was them lucking into another lotto win + taking the best player on their board, who just happened to be a RHD.

the end result of these moves was seeing a current RHD (severson) becoming expendable, but that was hardly the intent of the moves when they made them. rebuilding teams are focused more on sheer value adds, not specific positional upgrades.

as for seamus casey, well… he's a second round pick. that has nothing to do with damon severson. but if he and nemec both pan out, that could make hamilton/marino expendable. does that mean they picked seamus casey so they could one day replace one of those guys? nope.
I don’t know when New Jersey decided that Severson wasn’t core, but it was at least 1 year ago and possibly 2 years ago.
the precise moment when that happened was when they were able to add another core player (meier) without giving up nemec.

had san jose balked at that trade, i bet they would've kept severson and traded marino this summer for someone like debrincat. but that's just my opinion. alternatively, if they don't sign palat, they probably keep severson with that money and take their time with nemec.

All indications were that we hadn’t even planned on targeting Gaudreau until Gudbranson told Nash that we should go after Gaudreau.
they sent gaudreau an offer as soon as free agency opened. they didn't hear back from gaudreau's camp until nash said that gaudreau told gudbranson that he wanted to come to columbus.

it's semantics, but they had absolutely targeted gaudreau (and, reportedly, kadri) but weren't expecting to pull it off because, well, why would they?

to be clear: i'm not comparing what NJD did to what CBJ did (which i think is how you read my post) – i'm just pointing out that new jersey got absurdly lucky at every turn over the last few years, which put them in a position where it made sense for them to let severson walk.

getting hamilton, drafting 1OA twice, moving up a third time in the lotto for nemec, having a 6th round pick turn into a 70+ point guy, getting a massive improvement in goaltending results after only adding a career backup, being able to acquire meier without giving up nemec, etc.– it's not all part of some genius plan, it is pure luck.
 

thebus88

19/20 Columbus Blue Jackets: "It Is What It Is"
Sep 27, 2017
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Almost like people treat him as if he is the coach of a professional hockey team!
Yeah, these guys aren’t stuck on a track in a bubble hockey table, and it isn’t elementary school floor hockey where only certain positions can go to different places on the floor. Nor is it an EA Sports video game.

It also isn’t JUST “professional hockey”, it’s the NHL. Much more so than even other leagues just below the NHL, the way the players execute plays on the ice is much more important or impactful on the games than team strategies and (apparent) coaching “systems”.

imo
 

thebus88

19/20 Columbus Blue Jackets: "It Is What It Is"
Sep 27, 2017
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setting aside for a minute that the head coach does, in fact, determine who is on the ice and what system they play (how their coverage is structured, how their breakouts are structured, etc.)…

He can choose from the players he has available to him, injuries or not. He also can not be on the ice for the players. There is a reason the term “game speed” exists. These guys have to read plays and makes decisions in milliseconds. Most of it is on the players, and Jarmo, not Larsen.

larsen's issue wasn't his system, it was his inability to implement/teach that system, run practices effectively and prepare his players.

we heard all year long that the new system was, in theory, simple. but we also saw constant breakdowns in coverage and failings to sustain possession – with every player on the roster – and heard whispers that larsen's practices were a joke, lacking structure and direction.

you can have the best system in the world, but if the players don't prepare well or practice it enough to be able to execute it seamlessly in the fastest-paced league in the world, you are not going to win very many games. that stuff all falls on the coach.

I just don’t get how more of these issues aren’t put on the players and not the coach. It’s. The. N-H-L.
 

majormajor

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Here's a lineup.

The one add is Jaro Halak and notably we carry 3 goalies in this scenario, on a 23 man roster.

I'm listing the forward lines in two-center format in L/R pairs, trying to go along with Babs' priorities.

Gaudreau - Fantilli/Laine
Johnson - Jenner/Roslovic
Voronkov/Danforth - Marchenko
Robinson - Kuraly - Texier
Olivier

Werenski - Severson
Provorov - Peeke
Boqvist - Gudbranson
Bean

Halak
Merzlikins
Tarasov


You might also choose not to send down one of Sillinger, Chinakhov, Bemstrom, or Foudy, and to waive Tarasov instead. I don't think it's a big deal either way. Tarasov, Bemstrom, and Foudy are all in the category of players that might be useful, but none are worth protecting at the cost of making our best lineup.

What would be a big deal for me is landing Halak. That would greatly increase my confidence in our season.
 

koteka

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You might also choose not to send down one of Sillinger, Chinakhov, Bemstrom, or Foudy, and to waive Tarasov instead. I don't think it's a big deal either way. Tarasov, Bemstrom, and Foudy are all in the category of players that might be useful, but none are worth protecting at the cost of making our best lineup.

If we go with a line up like yours and everyone is miraculously healthy, I could see a forward having an “injury“ so you don’t have Foudy pass through waivers. I think Robinson is gone by the trade deadline, so they would like to have Foudy around to take his place.
 
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majormajor

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If we go with a line up like yours and everyone is miraculously healthy, I could see a forward having an “injury“ so you don’t have Foudy pass through waivers. I think Robinson is gone by the trade deadline, so they would like to have Foudy around to take his place.

Do you think Foudy is better than Robinson? I don't.

At the same time Robinson isn't so good that he'll command a big raise. Extending him would make sense if he isn't getting a big raise.
 

koteka

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Do you think Foudy is better than Robinson? I don't.

At the same time Robinson isn't so good that he'll command a big raise. Extending him would make sense if he isn't getting a big raise.

I think Robinson is better than Foudy, but I also think Robinson will test free agency just to see what his offers are. So the point is moot. He is a New Jersey kid who played his college hockey in New Jersey. Maybe he would rather be a 4th liner for the Devils next year than back in Columbus if the offers are similar. Maybe he wants more sun shine. I don’t think he is extending. So I would keep Foudy around.
 
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