Sportsnet: Arizona have received an offer matching their asking price for Jakob Chychrun.

[jonlin]

He was drafted two seasons ago. The stats aren’t great and he hasn’t established himself yet

Now the thrill is gone

~ Signed HF

Very few goalies are in that age. Goalies are like defensemen. They usually arent in their prime before 25+

 

[JasonDemersWasOkay]

I don't see Knight being the main piece going back and that's nothing against Knight himself. The Coyotes as an org have always kinda just plucked a random goalie out of nowhere and made due with that, and it's actually been successful alot of the time (like with Vejmelka this season, or Kuemper previously).

I like Knight, but for a trade like this for an established star D like Chychrun I don't see Knight being the big return piece

 

[Bettman Returnz]

He was drafted two seasons ago. The stats aren’t great and he hasn’t established himself yet

Now the thrill is gone.

~ Signed HF

Goalies typically take longer to develop. The whole bob contract kind of sets him back a bit. I personally think he will be a starter in this league.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Goalies typically take longer to develop. The whole bob contract kind of sets him back a bit. I personally think he will be a starter in this league.

Very few goalies are in that age. Goalies are like defensemen. They usually arent in their prime before 25+

You dont have to convince me.

 

[IrishFin]

Am I missing something on why knight wouldn’t be considered a top end piece of a trade? I mean I get wanting Lundell but knight is a top goalie prospect.

It has nothing to do with Knights value. It has everything to do with what Arizona needs in a trade for their 1D. Trading Chychrun for Knight as the most valuable piece in a package would be poor asset management on Arizona's part. Could they use a goalie like Knight in the system? Sure. But the players Arizona are rumored to like have mainly been centers which has been our biggest organizational need for many years.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

1 - I have never made that argument and I don't think anyone else has either.
2 - The argument that Kravtsov he is being included because he is the least likely to be an impactful player than other prospects. This is exacerbated by the his attitude.
3 - Lundkvist being included instead of Schneider is clearly because NY and other team fans identify Schneider's skill set as being more important to team success and a more difficult skill set to find. It doesn't matter if the Rag's fans voted him their best prospect before the season started. This is now, Schneider has emerged as the better prospect at this moment (development isn't linear, I understand this could change) to consider this childish makes no sense to me at all.

Kravtsov based on skill would probably be considered the most talented prospect on the Rangers. The reason people are willing to trade him is because he doesn't want to play for the Rangers because he didn't think he'd get a fair shot with Laf/Kakko. The Coyotes don't have that problem.

Schneider is more valuable to the RANGERS because they have Fox and Jones. He's not necessarily more valuable to every franchise. Do you think Lundkvist was just randomly voted as our top prospect?

Even if Kravtsov and Lundkvist aren't our top 2 prospects. You guys aren't entitled to our top two prospects and a #1 pick. This isn't Bobby Orr we're talking about.

 

[Boondock]

He just dislikes a lot of our prospects--undervalues Knight and Denisenko relative to much of the published consensus. It happens. When it comes to a trade, it's going to go down to what Armstrong/team feel.

My guess is Chychrun will get a top 25 prospect, a top 75-100 prospect, and a first. Question becomes who is in those buckets

1 - Is it under valuing Knight or is it realizing that goalies are the most difficult players to identify success.
In 2012 there was 24 goalies drafted, Vasilevskiy was the first drafted 19th overall, Hellebuyck was the 13th goalie taken at 130. Saros was the 9th goalie taken in his draft year 99th overall, other than Jarry, the 44th pick in the same draft, none of the other goalies taken ahead of Saros have ever become NHL starters. So while Knight is a good prospect and has shown some success in limited NHL games, it is not unreasonable to think that a comparable goalie can be found in the 3rd, 4th, 5th round. To use your teams best trade asset (Arizona - Chychrun) and have the "best" piece in the deal be a prospect goalie is underwhelming and has the potential to be a terrible deal for the Yotes.

2 - Denisenko, I'm not sure why he should be valued as a key piece in a trade of a player like Chychrun? He is in his D+4 season. He hasn't really produced offensively the way you would want in the A or the KHL. I understand he is still young and has room to improve, but a key piece in exchange for a high end #2 dman needs to show more if the value is going to make sense for the team acquiring.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Chychrun's availability is all about timelines, right? Arizona is doing an all-in rebuild and he's not under contract for when it expects to come out of it.

Putting a quality goalie behind an insufficient skater group is the definition of a half way in, half way out build. At the end of the season, New Jersey will have missed the playoffs in 9 out of 10 seasons. Paying for Schneider and then having him put up top tier numbers behind an otherwise bad hockey team early in that stretch extended the overall process. The time to pay up for a goalie is not the present.

 

[violaswallet]

1 - Is it under valuing Knight or is it realizing that goalies are the most difficult players to identify success.
In 2012 there was 24 goalies drafted, Vasilevskiy was the first drafted 19th overall, Hellebuyck was the 13th goalie taken at 130. Saros was the 9th goalie taken in his draft year 99th overall, other than Jarry, the 44th pick in the same draft, none of the other goalies taken ahead of Saros have ever become NHL starters. So while Knight is a good prospect and has shown some success in limited NHL games, it is not unreasonable to think that a comparable goalie can be found in the 3rd, 4th, 5th round. To use your teams best trade asset (Arizona - Chychrun) and have the "best" piece in the deal be a prospect goalie is underwhelming and has the potential to be a terrible deal for the Yotes.

2 - Denisenko, I'm not sure why he should be valued as a key piece in a trade of a player like Chychrun? He is in his D+4 season. He hasn't really produced offensively the way you would want in the A or the KHL. I understand he is still young and has room to improve, but a key piece in exchange for a high end #2 dman needs to show more if the value is going to make sense for the team acquiring.

The goalie argument is idiosyncratic and hence why I was benchmarking against existing rankings, which incorporate the probability of success. Moreover your logic is a bit convoluted here: you also should think probability(hitting|ranking or draft) as opposed to p(draft|hitting) when picking a player. People forget that’s it’s rare for a goalie to drafted be high and there is a constraint on prospects in system.

I have Deni as the top 75 prospect in my analysis, which lines up with TSN and Wheeler.

 

[YotesFan47]

For some reason, people on this website believe that since "goalies = voodoo" (incredibly oversimplified statement), they have little to no value, no matter how good their pedigree is. Just a way for fans to justify asking for way more than is reasonable for their players.

Not accurate, at least when it comes to the experience of Arizona fans. Look at our history with goalies, we buy low, sell high. This has been going on for nearly 15 years, maybe longer. Knight is a special looking player, not paying a premium based on past experiences.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Don’t think any Coyote fan undervalues Knight. It’s just that goaltending is not a priority currently and not the marquee asset wanted in trade return for our best player.

 

[Boondock]

Kravtsov based on skill would probably be considered the most talented prospect on the Rangers. The reason people are willing to trade him is because he doesn't want to play for the Rangers because he didn't think he'd get a fair shot with Laf/Kakko. The Coyotes don't have that problem.

Schneider is more valuable to the RANGERS because they have Fox and Jones. He's not necessarily more valuable to every franchise. Do you think Lundkvist was just randomly voted as our top prospect?

Even if Kravtsov and Lundkvist aren't our top 2 prospects. You guys aren't entitled to our top two prospects and a #1 pick. This isn't Bobby Orr we're talking about.

Kravtsov has reduced his own value by his actions. How many players that do this type of thing are traded for a high return? Not many.

No one said Lundkvist isn't a good prospect, however as you can see from HFBoards a lot of people that claim to be hockey fans don't actually watch much hockey, and definitely don't watch juniors/college/European hockey. They read someone's post and form an opinion based on others opinions or stat sheets. This is every fan base. I find it interesting how many people make claims that clearly indicate they do not watch the player they are commenting on. Im guessing there could be some of that going on.

I'm not sure who you guys are... I'm not a Yotes fan, I just enjoy the hockey banter, and really appreciate the knowledge that can be gained by certain posters on this site. I also don't think anyone is claiming any sort of entitlement to any teams top 2 prospects. What Yotes fans are doing is saying we have 1 trade chip with enough value to potentially land a very important piece for the re-build. They don't want to use that chip on question marks or players with risk factors. RHD and offensive C are the most difficult positions to find so to try to fill one of those voids is important so they are pressing for the best potential fake trade they can, and rightly so.

 

[bsu]

1 - Is it under valuing Knight or is it realizing that goalies are the most difficult players to identify success.
In 2012 there was 24 goalies drafted, Vasilevskiy was the first drafted 19th overall, Hellebuyck was the 13th goalie taken at 130. Saros was the 9th goalie taken in his draft year 99th overall, other than Jarry, the 44th pick in the same draft, none of the other goalies taken ahead of Saros have ever become NHL starters. So while Knight is a good prospect and has shown some success in limited NHL games, it is not unreasonable to think that a comparable goalie can be found in the 3rd, 4th, 5th round. To use your teams best trade asset (Arizona - Chychrun) and have the "best" piece in the deal be a prospect goalie is underwhelming and has the potential to be a terrible deal for the Yotes.

2 - Denisenko, I'm not sure why he should be valued as a key piece in a trade of a player like Chychrun? He is in his D+4 season. He hasn't really produced offensively the way you would want in the A or the KHL. I understand he is still young and has room to improve, but a key piece in exchange for a high end #2 dman needs to show more if the value is going to make sense for the team acquiring.

I completely agree with you

 

[YotesFan47]

Let's say Schneider is off the table, that hurts the deals value right? Would NYR fans be amicable to adding another piece to take care of that perceived value loss (real or not)?

Lundkvist, Robertson, Chytil, Kravtsov, 1st for Chychrun, Larsson/Boyd, late 2nd? Robertson helps make up for the lack of Schneiders inclusion and Chytil gives us a potential 2c, offsetting any hesitation with Kravtsov. We include one of Larsson or Boyd to help you with your playoff success and a 2nd to help bring the value closer to neutral.

Not my ideal trade, but helps me to feel like we got enough spins at the prize wheel to give up Chychrun as payment.

 

[ZiGOODejad]

Let's say Schneider is off the table, that hurts the deals value right? Would NYR fans be amicable to adding another piece to take care of that perceived value loss (real or not)?

Lundkvist, Robertson, Chytil, Kravtsov, 1st for Chychrun + Larsson/Boyd + late 2nd? Robertson helps make up for the lack of Schneiders inclusion and Chytil gives us a potential 2c, offsetting any hesitation with Kravtsov. We include one of Larsson or Boyd to help you with your playoff success and a 2nd to help bring the value closer to neutral.

Not my ideal trade, but helps me to feel like we got enough spins at the prize wheel to give up Chychrun as payment.

Ideally i would prefer to land Chychurn and Crouse in a trade with the Yotes

 

[YotesFan47]

Ideally i would prefer to land Chychurn and Crouse in a trade with the Yotes

Chychrun and Crouse for Nemeth, Lundkvist, Robertson, Chytil, Kravtsov, 1st and a '24 2nd? Forgot to add Nemeth in the original post. Almost cap neutral too which is nice.

 

[Hierso]

Am I missing something on why knight wouldn’t be considered a top end piece of a trade? I mean I get wanting Lundell but knight is a top goalie prospect.

It's pretty cheap to pick up a good enough rental goalie at the TDL usally.

 

[Bettman Returnz]

It's pretty cheap to pick up a good enough rental goalie at the TDL usally.

Ask the oilers how easy it is to find a good enough goalie…. No shade either. Just saying a good goalie can go a long way. Not saying coyotes have to trade for knight. More just saying he’s still a very valuable prospect and shouldn’t be so quick to be dismissed.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I just do not understand the buzz around this player. One great year does not a stud top pairing dman make. He hasn't performed well at all without OEL to help carry the burden. 2G 8P and a league worst -31 this season.

The contract is appealing definitely, not saying at all he's not worth a couple good pieces, but a projected return of three A assets seems very high.

 

[Mikachu93]

Chychrun and Crouse for Nemeth, Lundkvist, Robertson, Chytil, Kravtsov, 1st and a '24 2nd? Forgot to add Nemeth in the original post. Almost cap neutral too which is nice.

Let's say Schneider is off the table, that hurts the deals value right? Would NYR fans be amicable to adding another piece to take care of that perceived value loss (real or not)?

Lundkvist, Robertson, Chytil, Kravtsov, 1st for Chychrun, Larsson/Boyd, late 2nd? Robertson helps make up for the lack of Schneiders inclusion and Chytil gives us a potential 2c, offsetting any hesitation with Kravtsov. We include one of Larsson or Boyd to help you with your playoff success and a 2nd to help bring the value closer to neutral.

Not my ideal trade, but helps me to feel like we got enough spins at the prize wheel to give up Chychrun as payment.

Personally, if there's hesitation with Kravtsov, why include him?

I'd do Lundkvist, Chytil, Robertson, Nemeth (salary purposes) and our 2022 1st for Chychrun and Larsson or something like that. No need to add the late 2nd for Arizona.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Hyping up yet another just pretty good player to trade away is their Stanley Cup all the way back from the Yandle days. Their 3 fans are elite hype men for mediocre players, they got a lot of experience doing it by now. Once Chychrun is gone we'll be hearing about Lyubushkin being a Norris darkhorse.

Yandle was top 3 in points for a dman over the last 3 seasons at time of trade and has always been good offensively even now, how do ya'll come up with this shit lmfao

 

[Boondock]

The goalie argument is idiosyncratic and hence why I was benchmarking against existing rankings, which incorporate the probability of success. Moreover your logic is a bit convoluted here: you also should think probability(hitting|ranking or draft) as opposed to p(draft|hitting) when picking a player. People forget that’s it’s rare for a goalie to drafted be high and there is a constraint on prospects in system.

I have Deni as the top 75 prospect in my analysis, which lines up with TSN and Wheeler.

The entire point was that evaluating goalies seems to be more difficult than positional players and highly touted goalie prospects fail to meet expectations. As for your rankings - great, If he's Deni is one of the key pieces to a Chychrun deal, the Yotes have lost that trade.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Yandle was top 3 in points for a dman over the last 3 seasons at time of trade and has always been good offensively even now, how do ya'll come up with this shit lmfao

He has the same career high as Erik Gustafson, is he a #1D too? Yandle has no idea what the defensive zone is, feeding him PP minutes doesn't make him the #1D yotes fans pretended he was.

 

[Dead Coyote]

He has the same career high as Erik Gustafson, is he a #1D too? Yandle has no idea what the defensive zone is, feeding him PP minutes doesn't make him the #1D yotes fans pretended he was.

That is possibly the stupidest argument I have ever heard

his CAREER HIGH of points in a season is 2 less than Yandle's, and that makes him as good as Yandle is

holy shit

 

[jonlin]

Ask the oilers how easy it is to find a good enough goalie

I`d rather ask the Oilers how hard it is to sack your goalie-coach, GM and defensive coaches? Oilers is the place goalies goto die. A team with no defensive D:s, no defensive system and no 2-way forwards...